• SONAR
  • The psychology of the wallet - and a whole lot about VCA's... (p.15)
2016/04/30 11:28:34
Anderton
mettelusField failures are the #1 way for a company to give itself a black eye and create negative marketing that can never be "bought" back, specifically word-of-mouth advertising.

 
I agree completely. I've been bitten more than once, like not being able to locate a CD-ROM that needed to be inserted periodically…very bad if you’re in the middle of giving a workshop. Thankfully copy protection is becoming less intrusive but as long as people steal software, companies will try to figure out ways to prevent that. It’s sobering to see the sales figures for interfaces compared to the software people run on them. If people aren’t stealing software, then I guess there are just a lot of folks who like to collect hardware interfaces.
 
True story: Steinberg once had a copy protection system that involved random, periodic insertion of your distribution CD. At one Frankfurt show I was told by a Steinberg representative they were so afraid of needing to authorize the program during demos they all used Cubase cracks.
 
During the early days of iLok, where it could wipe out your C: drive if you tried to install a new program while having out of date drivers (it happened to me), one computer builder would replace your legit Waves plug-ins with cracks if you provided proof you had purchased them.
 
Do I hate having a program go dead during a workshop? Of course. However copy protection uses code and code can have bugs. I do think that if companies are going to make any aspect of a program bullet-proof, it should be ensuring that any protection scheme doesn’t inconvenience legitimate users.
 
From a SONAR perspective, tempo maps could have been introduced in X3, and been extended to "map track to master" similar to AS - syncing audio to MIDI is a thorn everyone deals with at some point, and the "innovation" has been there.

 
Are you sure about that? I think there had to be changes in ARA to make it possible, and both Cakewalk and PreSonus have worked closely with Celemony to extend ARA. I’m actually rather surprised they remain the only two companies to really jump on ARA.
 
Listening to the users.

 
I can assure you Cakewalk listens, but that doesn’t mean they have the ability, time, or resources to implement what people want. Many of the requests in this forum are things Cakewalk itself wants to implement but can’t at the present time for one reason or another.
 
There isn't anyone who offers feedback here in hopes to see Cakewalk fail!!! Yet the ones driving this train in that direction continue to attack these people who are investing their time in "hope" of being not only heard, but listened to. Once that resource goes "offline," surveys aren't going to cut it one iota.

 
I think the impatience comes with threads whose premise is “I’m not going to renew/I’m going to switch because SONAR doesn’t do something I want it to do.” There are plenty of DAWs out there. If you want a MIDI implementation with VST Expression, there’s Cubase. If you want an audio engine that won’t stop unless you drop your laptop on a concrete floor, there’s Ableton Live. If you want to be able to tell clients you use Pro Tools…there’s Pro Tools. But all DAW forums are filled with feature requests that will never be implemented. Unfortunately, you can't have it all, so you have to decide what comes closest to meeting your needs.
 
It’s a competitive market. Cakewalk does what it can to compete with the resources it has, and they're working hard at reversing the downward spiral that existed for years before the company was purchased.
 
However take the case of VCAs, since it was mentioned as something sufficiently important that it might cause someone to switch. I genuinely didn’t understand what VCAs did that was so important, but I wanted to know. After listening to what people said n this thread, it sure seemed to me it wasn’t that huge a deal, so it sure wouldn’t cause me to switch…but if someone absolutely needs VCA-style grouping, well, there are programs that do that. Or take the thread about “jumping ship” because SONAR lacked a particular integration that Studio One supposedly had. But dig deeper, and you’ll find that the touted integration doesn’t yet exist. By the time it becomes available to the public in SOP, I’d bet SONAR will have it too.
 
So yes—listening is crucial, but when there are thousands of people talking at once, it’s also important to differentiate between the signal and the noise. A legitimate user having SONAR go into demo mode is not just signal, but a loud and serious one. On the other hand I think for a lot of people, talking about switching to another DAW because it offers VCA grouping is noise. But that’s just my opinion…and it may be noise. Or it may be signal.
2016/04/30 12:11:26
azslow3
mettelus
Anderton
azslow3
That just has happened to me... DEMO MODE. I am not a "pro", so I was not on stage and I was not working with clients. I was recording a tutorial how to use Control Surfaces with Sonar.
 
THEY DO NOT TRUST ME. I have paid for Sonar upright, but they still "checking" me all the time. So the claim "if you pay for Sonar upright you can use it as long as you want" is NOT true! Sonar will continue to check and any time its buggy code think I am a "bad boy" it immediately pop-up with "Demo mode. Contact support.". THEY DO NOT TRUST ME. And after that, should I trust they deliver something useful "next year"? Should I think "they are nice"? "Support" them? Sorry, NO!

Yes, I agree that really sucks, and it has happened to more people than you. However to be fair it was a bug that was in the list of fixes for the April release so hopefully that's the end of it.

Unless I misconstrued Alexey's other post, this did occur in the April release. Only he can confirm such.

Yes, the latest release.
 
I have cooled down, took a break and I have recorded the video. But I am not going to take any single word back. Under no condition user friendly software should switch into DEMO mode in the middle of a session. It can crash, it can ask to restart, all that is ok. But not accuse the user to be a pirate!
 
Anderton
mettelusField failures are the #1 way for a company to give itself a black eye and create negative marketing that can never be "bought" back, specifically word-of-mouth advertising.

 
I agree completely. I've been bitten more than once, like not being able to locate a CD-ROM that needed to be inserted periodically…very bad if you’re in the middle of giving a workshop. Thankfully copy protection is becoming less intrusive but as long as people steal software, companies will try to figure out ways to prevent that. It’s sobering to see the sales figures for interfaces compared to the software people run on them. If people aren’t stealing software, then I guess there are just a lot of folks who like to collect hardware interfaces.

That means that CakeWalk is also just a "normal" commercial company, which tries to protect OWN property and easily sacrifice users experience for that. No, it is not worse then other. It is THE SAME as other.
The point is about "special spirit and friendliness" of CakeWalk, discussed in this thread early. They HAD it. That is why I am here. But that time is over.
 
Lets see facts: new online activation for Z3TA2 "update" (the first what hit me in that line, since was completely unexpected), "goodby" normal phone support, "Demo mode" in the middle of a session. They want to be like Steinberg and iLock? Fine. But they can expect proportional reaction then.
 
 
2016/04/30 13:29:26
Anderton
azslow3
"goodby" normal phone support

 
Support is a situation where there can be a cluster of calls when people aren't taken care of, or put on hold for an excessive period of time, and then long periods of time when no one calls. I really don't see the problem with the current phone support model; you still get free phone support, and because you choose a time to be called back you don't have to wait on hold. Seems like an improvement to me, but I don't use support so I don't know what the difference is between what it was and what it is.
 
The ideal approach would be to have enough support people to answer everyone with 30 seconds, and Cakewalk could do that if they outsourced support (and they'd save money, too). However, I think the positive experience of being able to call at any time and get the phone answered quickly would be offset by the negative experience of outsourced support that wouldn't know much about the program and have to "escalate" to Cakewalk, causing further delay. 
 
"Demo mode" in the middle of a session. They want to be like Steinberg and iLock? Fine. But they can expect proportional reaction then.

 
They don't want to be, and AFAIC "Demo Mode" in the middle of a session is unacceptable. It's troubling that they thought it was fixed in this update and it wasn't. 
2016/04/30 14:12:24
azslow3
Anderton
azslow3
"goodby" normal phone support

Support is a situation where there can be a cluster of calls when people aren't taken care of, or put on hold for an excessive period of time, and then long periods of time when no one calls. I really don't see the problem with the current phone support model; you still get free phone support, and because you choose a time to be called back you don't have to wait on hold. Seems like an improvement to me, but I don't use support so I don't know what the difference is between what it was and what it is.

I have used support only ones, but exactly for the case like in http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3407379
I mean in case for some reason you can not see Platinum in your account, you can not schedule phone support.
So, account questions (you can not login, you do not see the produce) and questions about money (you have paid for something, but it is "not there") have NO phone support now. I have mentioned that when the change was announced.
 
For the case something does not work as expected, current model is may be better. But for the case "it does not work at all", which can be significantly more annoying, there is no support at all.
 
They could make "real time" support for "accounts and sales question only", no specialists required, that is common practice. I remember the feeling when I could not login to see my registration number right after my "new" X1(or X2, X3... do not remember) installation. I have used this forum and I got help pretty quick. But many people do not use forums (and they can not send PM to CW in case you was not active in the forum before), e-mail support "speed" is well known, so what should they do in this new support schema?
 
 
2016/04/30 14:27:46
ampfixer
I don't like it when somebody changes the status quo to make their life better and spins it as a change to make your life better. Pretty easy to see through that nonsense.
2016/04/30 19:02:13
Keith Albright [Cakewalk]
azslow3
mettelus
Anderton
azslow3
That just has happened to me... DEMO MODE. I am not a "pro", so I was not on stage and I was not working with clients. I was recording a tutorial how to use Control Surfaces with Sonar.
 
THEY DO NOT TRUST ME. I have paid for Sonar upright, but they still "checking" me all the time. So the claim "if you pay for Sonar upright you can use it as long as you want" is NOT true! Sonar will continue to check and any time its buggy code think I am a "bad boy" it immediately pop-up with "Demo mode. Contact support.". THEY DO NOT TRUST ME. And after that, should I trust they deliver something useful "next year"? Should I think "they are nice"? "Support" them? Sorry, NO!

Yes, I agree that really sucks, and it has happened to more people than you. However to be fair it was a bug that was in the list of fixes for the April release so hopefully that's the end of it.

Unless I misconstrued Alexey's other post, this did occur in the April release. Only he can confirm such.

Yes, the latest release.
 
I have cooled down, took a break and I have recorded the video. But I am not going to take any single word back. Under no condition user friendly software should switch into DEMO mode in the middle of a session. It can crash, it can ask to restart, all that is ok. But not accuse the user to be a pirate!
 
Anderton
mettelusField failures are the #1 way for a company to give itself a black eye and create negative marketing that can never be "bought" back, specifically word-of-mouth advertising.

 
I agree completely. I've been bitten more than once, like not being able to locate a CD-ROM that needed to be inserted periodically…very bad if you’re in the middle of giving a workshop. Thankfully copy protection is becoming less intrusive but as long as people steal software, companies will try to figure out ways to prevent that. It’s sobering to see the sales figures for interfaces compared to the software people run on them. If people aren’t stealing software, then I guess there are just a lot of folks who like to collect hardware interfaces.

That means that CakeWalk is also just a "normal" commercial company, which tries to protect OWN property and easily sacrifice users experience for that. No, it is not worse then other. It is THE SAME as other.
The point is about "special spirit and friendliness" of CakeWalk, discussed in this thread early. They HAD it. That is why I am here. But that time is over.
 
Lets see facts: new online activation for Z3TA2 "update" (the first what hit me in that line, since was completely unexpected), "goodby" normal phone support, "Demo mode" in the middle of a session. They want to be like Steinberg and iLock? Fine. But they can expect proportional reaction then.
 
 


Alexey, I had replied to your other post in the problem reports area. This thread is not a good place to put issues.
 
Anyway, you are right this shouldn't happen.  I had asked you in your other post what error codes if any you got as well as emailed you directly.  I saw you posted you didn't recall the codes.  Ok, I'd like to help but can't directly without some more info.  Need to know what error codes if any appeared on that contact support toast.  So if anyone else has gotten this, reply in the problem reports post.  Otherwise, I've been investigating in the dark to try and find how it might have occurred while you had the project going.  I ran for an hour and didn't get into calls that might fail to lead to this condition. 
 
Keith
2016/04/30 21:17:56
RD9
ampfixer
I don't like it when somebody changes the status quo to make their life better and spins it as a change to make your life better. Pretty easy to see through that nonsense.




This is a very good way to describe a phenomenon that we encounter all too often in our daily lives and was my perception of the Monthly Updates;  it has been noted by some of the members who program for a living that putting out small changes has some advantages to the programmers and it is clear that CW marketing favours this approach so they have something new to sell continuously, rather than once a year.  However, I must also concede that the Monthly Update approach appeals to a number of users so it may be that CW perceived this as a benefit to users as well.  It has zero appeal to me though.
2016/04/30 23:42:03
Anderton
RD9
 It has zero appeal to me though.



Remember part of the reason for going to monthly updates is so there wouldn't be a "cutoff" on bug fixes and optimizations because CW had to start working on the next "big" release. I think most people have noticed the speed increase, it's nice not to have to wait for that kind of improvement.
 
To me one advantage is not having to learn a bunch of stuff all at once. Also features like patch points, upsampling, the new "mastering" plug-ins, and Drum Replacer to name a few were immensely beneficial and put to use immediately in projects. I'm just as glad I didn't have to wait.
2016/05/01 01:08:13
BMOG
Anderton
As to previous comments, I don't get the sense anyone is trying to "screw" Cakewalk, they just want to spend the minimal amount necessary to get what they want. There's nothing wrong with that. The people who are not just trying, but actually are screwing Cakewalk, are the ones who use the software without paying.
 
If someone said "Well since Cakewalk won't give me what I want at the price I want to pay, I'm just going to go to a torrent and get the stuff for free," that would be a very different matter altogether.
 
People have very different needs and financial situations. For someone with a Schedule C who makes money from SONAR, the cost is deductible and therefore more affordable. For someone with a daughter in the hospital...the cost of any version of SONAR is probably prohibitive.


SPOT ON!! +10
2016/05/05 09:05:49
BMOG

Anderton
There is, as long as you buy plug-ins from someone else. You can buy a linear phase multiband compressor from Waves for $149. Don't know what version of SONAR you have, but given that you can upgrade to SONAR Platinum from X3 Producer for $149 and that gets you the LP MB, LP EQ, and a years' worth of update, it seems like a better deal than going a la carte with a different manufacturer.
 
Artist, Platinum, or Professional? There are different update costs for each. Artist to Professional is $99, renewing Platinum for another year is $149. Either way it's a better deal than buying a single plug-in a la carte.
 
********************************************************************************************
 
I think this is close to LP MB for $29, maybe CW should adopt Waves logic here every so often offer plugins individually for a price that brings in buyers.  Selling alot of a product a little cheaper is better than selling fewer products at full price.  Just thought I would share
http://www.waves.com/plugins/c4-multiband-compressor?utm_source=wnletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=gui&utm_campaign=c4-multiband-compressor-sale#vocal-multiband-compression-with-C4
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s3yU14xpJ8
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