msmcleod

scook
...The knob marked "Gain" on an instrument track inspector is actually the Velocity Trim from the MIDI track...

...It is really confusing though, as everything else on the strip is audio based...

 
Apparently this was a "known problem" during the X-series era, but they never got round to fixing it.
http://forum.cakewalk.com/m3220800.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/m3097199.aspx
 

msmcleod
I've wondered why this is the case too - thanks for clearing this up scook.
 
It is really confusing though, as everything else on the strip is audio based.
 
IMO it would make far better sense for the gain knob to swap between audio gain and "MIDI" gain when you swap between the Audio & MIDI tabs - just like every other control does (e.g. Volume, Pan etc).

This is a great idea actually since it would allow for accessing both controls from the inspector!
We'll consider it.
 
[Edit] I misspoke - input gain is not used for synth audio tracks. Input gain is pre fader gain that is applied to audio data from track and not synth output or from hardware input monitor. 
See the signal flow chart that illustrates this. So this is indeed by design that the input gain knob exclusively controls just the MIDI velocity+ which is somewhat equivalent in function to audio input gain.
 
[Edit2] I confused myself above lol. Input Gain is indeed available on audio channels for instrument tracks. So we'll implement the behavior recommended in this thread. Thanks for the feedback!

msmcleod
I tend to favour instrument tracks, as I find it convenient not only for treating them as one track, but also I find it easier to swap out synths on the fly.
 
With the synth rack, I've got the MIDI track, the synth, and the outputs to separate audio tracks to deal with. If I change synths, I've got to re-route everything, which gets in the way of my workflow during writing.
 
I don't mind having duplicates of synths as I rarely get anywhere near to maxing out CPU or RAM.
 
Once I'm happy with an instrument track, I usually freeze it so I can treat it solely as audio.
 
I guess it all depends on your workflow...
 
If you've got a good idea for your song before you start recording (or a better memory than I have for keeping ideas in your head!), then separating them out will work fine.
 
I write and record as I go along. Getting ideas down quickly and developing them in the moment is priority for me.
 

Everything he said. I'd be lost without them now. It's easy enough to split them out if/when required and then combine again, so I've never understood why people don't like them. Having all the clutter of separate midi tracks or another folder containing them in which I would then have to go looking for them if required seems much more long winded to me.
 
 

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
So this is indeed by design that the input gain knob exclusively controls just the MIDI velocity+ which is somewhat equivalent in function to audio input gain.

It isn't really the 'equivalent' control if a lower MIDI velocity triggers a different sample altogether within the instrument..
 
input gain should change the apparent volume, not the sample being played.. surely?

Correct. In this case the control is simply mis-labeled. Once upon a time, it was referred to by its proper name, "velocity offset".
 
Given that a MIDI track's input is binary data, and there is no audio until the instrument it's driving makes some, "volume" has no meaning in this context. The easy solution would be for CW to rename that control "velocity".

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]

msmcleod
I've wondered why this is the case too - thanks for clearing this up scook.
 
It is really confusing though, as everything else on the strip is audio based.
 
IMO it would make far better sense for the gain knob to swap between audio gain and "MIDI" gain when you swap between the Audio & MIDI tabs - just like every other control does (e.g. Volume, Pan etc).

This is a great idea actually since it would allow for accessing both controls from the inspector!
We'll consider it.
 
[Edit] I misspoke - input gain is not used for synth audio tracks. Input gain is pre fader gain that is applied to audio data from track and not synth output or from hardware input monitor. 
See the signal flow chart that illustrates this. So this is indeed by design that the input gain knob exclusively controls just the MIDI velocity+ which is somewhat equivalent in function to audio input gain.

According to the signal flow chart, the instrument output hits the audio track after the audio gain.
 
This would imply that if I split an instrument track, changing the audio gain will have no effect whatsoever... except if I do this it does actually change the gain.
 
Recombining the tracks back into an instrument track retains the audio gain setting...
 
Furthermore, splitting the audio track again shows the audio track gain control exactly as I set it, meaning the audio gain setting it is getting stored inside the instrument track.
 
So if an instrument track is actually an audio track and a midi track just displayed as one, why can't the Gain knob be linked to the Audio track gain when the Audio tab is selected, and the MIDI track gain when the MIDI tab is selected?
 

Audio gain only affects signal coming from playback of recorded/rendered audio clips. As noted, live input from interface channels and soft synths hits the track after the input gain and is not affected. To control the input level to the track from a soft synth, you can either adjust the output volume of the synth directly via the synth GUI or use MIDI volume to control it.

brundlefly
Audio gain only affects signal coming from playback of recorded/rendered audio clips. As noted, live input from interface channels and soft synths hits the track after the input gain and is not affected. To control the input level to the track from a soft synth, you can either adjust the output volume of the synth directly via the synth GUI or use MIDI volume to control it.

 
It does affect live input from live synths. Here's me playing a chord on an organ, with no recorded clips whilst adjusting audio input gain:
 

Sorry; I only read the first sentence of your previous post, which I thought was just reiterating what Noel said, and which I thought was correct. Makes me wonder if something changed at some point, as I remember it working as documented. But coming from the hardware synth world, originally, I've always used output level of synths to control input level to the track. In general it's not been a concern with soft synths except for the few synths that tend to run too hot right out of the box (e.g. SD3).