2014/10/27 16:34:48
sharke
I know this is pretty much out there, but I'd love to see some kind of selection of baked-in modulation sources in Sonar (LFO's, envelopes etc) which could be assigned to mix parameters (or indeed any automation parameter you have set up).

So if, say, you wanted to auto-pan a number of instruments together, instead of using the (frankly fiddly) shape automation tools to draw the automation in for each track, you could just instantiate a sine wave LFO and assign it to the tracks you wanted. The possibilities would be endless.

In this bizarre fantasy I'm having, the modulation sources could themselves be modulated by other modulators, or automated with regular automation envelopes. So you could fade an LFO in with a ramp, for instance.

Am I talking nonsense? Wouldn't be the first time.
2014/10/27 18:32:58
stevec
Sounds a little like Bitwig, not that I've tried it myself.   I could see myself using this type of functionality on occasion...
 
2014/10/28 01:04:45
sharke
I think I would use it quite a lot. One of the reasons why I use Guitar Rig effects so much is that you can hook its modulators up to any parameter in your effect chain. Oftentimes I find myself wishing I could assign its LFO's, envelopes and sequencers outside of Guitar Rig. It's a great way of adding rhythmic and dynamic interest to your music. 
2014/10/28 09:34:27
Loptec
Reaper has this feature already and I'd love to have it in Sonar!!
 
One of my friends use Reaper and I got really jealous the first time he showed me this. 
 
Just make a google search on reaper and parameter modulation. I think no one would argue this is an awesome feature that anyone could have great use for.
2014/10/28 09:39:41
gswitz
B rock pointed out that you can write automation and send out as midi.then loop. it back and you can use it like a controller automate many parameters.
2014/10/28 18:37:10
b rock
B rock pointed out that you can write automation and send out as midi.then loop. it back and you can use it like a controller automate many parameters.

 
Took me a while to find that underrated feature thread.  You need a virtual MIDI cable, and it can be a bit of work to get a library started.  But once you do, it's addicting.  Now I can drag & drop just about any shape & rate. And yet, I'm still finding variations on that theme.  So I call up the "MIDI LFO Groove Clip" template, and zip off a few more custom controllers to fit the task at hand.
 
Even that process is basically a workaround (not a dirty word in my book) for what Sharke is suggesting here.  Not everyone would want to (or should necessarily have to) go to those lengths for "universal" modulations.
 
Just to show you how long I've wanted this type of feature in a native sense, here's a 7-year old post on a MIDI LFO feature request.  I actually spoke at length about this on the phone with Jesse Jost [ex-Cakewalk & Line6] the year prior.  {Hey, Andrew ... you were on the line, too, were you not?}
 
Think about it:  The per-track arpeggiator - simplistic terms - is an algorithmic lookup table with 128 possible values (notes).  "Up" is a ramp waveform.  "Down" is a sawtooth.  "Up & Down" - inclusive & exclusive - are triangle waveform variations.  "As Played" is a programmable waveform.  "Random" is ... you get the idea.  Now apply it to CC / pitchbend / aftertouch messages, rather than note values.
 
Toss in some CW programming wizardry, tab it alongside the arpeggiator, and you've got per-track MIDI LFOs.  Of course, it wouldn't hurt to to put in a mini-PRV window somewhere for custom waveforms, or consult RGC for some loadable waveform interpolations.  This would also be a good place to add a "Tracking Generator".  Modify the incoming MIDI messages with a "waveform" shape that processes the MIDI input range, then conforms it to that drawn shape for MIDI output (assignable to anything).
 
One-shots, repeat X times, and infinite cycles (latch) are essentially counters, and could be a shared feature with the arpeggiator.  Computers are fairly adept at counting.  One-shots are basically envelopes.  LFOs with thinned (quantized) data are per-track sequencers.  There are a LOT of ways to go with this.  Sure, there are a few MIDI FX that have similar concepts & features by now, but what fun is that (when you can have them pre-loaded & programmable per-track)???
2014/10/28 18:52:38
scook
Glad you weighted in with your underrated feature thread. I have it in my files. A tool I have used is CableGuys MidiShaper
 
2014/10/28 19:18:29
b rock
Those CableGuys FX work well in X3 now, don't they?  There's also that Rhythmic Controller MFX from Frank's MIDI plugins that I've always liked ... Hmm.  I need to reload those.  Full disclosure, Scook:  I've been "cheating" a lot lately using a Lexicon MPX-1 MIDI output, and this "wildly popular"   Technique that I posted.
 
Still, I think that Sharke's request brings up a killer feature concept that may be relatively easy to integrate into Sonar's current configuration, and one that can be expanded upon in future releases.
2014/10/28 19:35:45
scook
They gave me a copy of MidiShaper when I provided them instructions on getting the plug-in setup in X2. It worked OK in X2 as long as you respected the "crosstalk" bug. Fortunately X3 fixed the bug and MidiShaper setup is easier.
2014/10/29 01:12:23
sharke
The workarounds are interesting, but I think it would be an awesome feature to have hard coded into Sonar and would definitely go someways toward making the program more attractive to the electronic crowd who would traditionally choose programs like Reason and Abelton over this one. 
 
I like the idea of them being baked into every MIDI track alongside the arpreggiator like b rock suggests. Then again, the space available in a strip might be a bit limiting in terms of the potential for creating custom modulations. Maybe it would be better to have a global modulation window in which you could instantiate a number of modulation sources which would be assignable to as many parameters as you like. Something like Z3TA+2's awesome LFO module, complete with morphable waves etc. 
 
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