kennywtelejazz


 It ain't cheating any more than nicking all of Bach's playing and putting it in a plug is ....is It?

Funny that you brought up Bach, besides the fact that dude, Steve Duda, used him in Cthulhu. 
 
It reminded me of my community college library back in the 70's, where they had a music room where you could listen to albums and check them out, etc.  They even had record players with stereo headphones, and bean bag chairs.  Yup, I got a lot of studying done there, right! 
 
I discovered this crazy new record called "Switched on Bach", by Walter Carlos, performed on the Moog synthesizer.
 
I listened to it over and over.  That rocked my world!  I think I was hooked on synthesizers at that moment, although it was another 10 years before I could afford one of my own (not a Moog, but it was still fun).
 
Bach rocked, for sure!!! 

ZincTrumpet
{snip}

abacab
 
Enjoyed that video! 
 
Especially that part where Steve described working in phone support at Avid, and then getting hired away by Nine Inch Nails, LOL!!!  Decisions, decisions... should I continue working in a cube in an office, or go to work making sounds for a band??? 
 
 
I may grab the demo of Cthulhu and give it a try, at least for experimenting with chording. But since it is a plugin, it is only going to work on one track, so I will still need something else.

 
Yes, it must have been a hard call 
 
That's true about Cthulu but often you can "steal" parts of the chords for other purposes e.g. the lowest note for bass, or reduced chords shifted an octave up/down for strings/pads etc 
 

abacab


And I really like Tonespace, that will be another great tool for exploring chords and scales.
 
A lot of the other MIDI tools are standalone programs for a reason.  VST plugin design limits a plugin to interacting with one track, rather than the entire arrangement.
 
For example, that is why Liquid Notes uses a virtual MIDI cable to connect with your DAW.  That way it can support a multi-track MIDI arrangement and can keep all the parts aligned harmonically as you adjust the chords in the LN program.
 
As far as the other tools I am testing go, I really like the UI of Cubase 9 Elements, and the Chord Track with Circle of Fifths built-in is easy and logical to work with.  But I am also testing the demos of Waveform and RapidComposer. 

 
I do still need to install Liquid Notes and investigate! I'm not against standalone programs per se it's just how easily their workflow integrates with a DAW e.g. BIAB is standalone but integration with DAW is simple via MIDI/WAV files or even as a plugin. I found AutoTheory too much of a faff to be bothered with it compared to Cthulu. 
 
Still not bitten the bullet with Cubase as I'm also now looking at Waveform! Is it possible to have too many DAWs?
 

abacab
I think that Waveform actually may have a better creative MIDI tool than Cubase, due to the pattern generator, but the UI is non-standard for Windows and takes a little getting used to.
 
Same with RapidComposer.  It seems capable of some of the same MIDI tricks that Waveform has, but the UI is a little more dated and even weirder than Waveform.
 
I'll just keep plugging away at these until I figure out what works best foe me! 

Same here! 
 
When I tried RapidComposer a while back I found the UI too complicated and couldn't get on with it.
 
I have the demo of T7 installed and quite like the everything on one screen approach, but the videos of Waveform that Kenny posted have really got me interested (thanks K).  Thanks also Fleer for dropping Reason into the equation - gotta be worth checking out  (these forums can get expensive, lol).
 
I already use EZKeys a lot for it's nice circle of fifths chord input and browser MIDI and usually compare the results with BIAB and go with whichever sounds the more natural or sits nicest in the mix. I am hoping ToonTrack take EZKeys to the next level in future with something along the lines of the Waveform tools.
 
Have fun exploring all the options, I know I will 

ZincTrumpet
 
{snip}
 

 

abacab


Enjoyed that video! 
 
Especially that part where Steve described working in phone support at Avid, and then getting hired away by Nine Inch Nails, LOL!!!  Decisions, decisions... should I continue working in a cube in an office, or go to work making sounds for a band???
 
I may grab the demo of Cthulhu and give it a try, at least for experimenting with chording. But since it is a plugin, it is only going to work on one track, so I will still need something else.
 

 
Second attempt at posting this.....apologies if both appear at some point...
 
Tough decision for Steve, NOT 
 
It’s true that Cthulu only works on single track chords but you can always use that to create other tracks e.g. lowest note for a bass track, revised chords for strings etc.
 
 
 

abacab
 
And I really like Tonespace, that will be another great tool for exploring chords and scales.
 
A lot of the other MIDI tools are standalone programs for a reason.  VST plugin design limits a plugin to interacting with one track, rather than the entire arrangement.
 
For example, that is why Liquid Notes uses a virtual MIDI cable to connect with your DAW.  That way it can support a multi-track MIDI arrangement and can keep all the parts aligned harmonically as you adjust the chords in the LN program.
 
 

 
I don’t have anything against programs that are standalone per se, I just found AutoTheory a pain to work with so ended up not using it.
 
I really must install Liquid Notes and try it out as I have owned it since Christmas!
 

abacab
 
As far as the other tools I am testing go, I really like the UI of Cubase 9 Elements, and the Chord Track with Circle of Fifths built-in is easy and logical to work with.  But I am also testing the demos of Waveform and RapidComposer.
 
I think that Waveform actually may have a better creative MIDI tool than Cubase, due to the pattern generator, but the UI is non-standard for Windows and takes a little getting used to.
 
Same with RapidComposer.  It seems capable of some of the same MIDI tricks that Waveform has, but the UI is a little more dated and even weirder than Waveform.
 
I'll just keep plugging away at these until I figure out what works best foe me! 
 

 
Same here!
 
I haven’t pulled the trigger yet on Cubase as I am now considering Waveform! I already have the T7 demo installed and like the all in one screen approach but the videos that Kenny posted have me very interested (thanks, K). Thanks also Fleer for throwing Reason into the melting pot. These forums can get expensive but can you have too many DAWs? 
 
I tried RC a while back and couldn’t get on with the UI.
 
Have fun exploring all the options; I know I will 

As much as I like the sound of all the tools mentioned above I am not even going to bother to look into them... I might begin to create something interesting, and that would never do.......

BobF

Fleer
And let's not forget Toontrack EZKeys' Circle of Fifths.

One of these days I guess I need to try out EZKeys ... I really wish TT would do an EZBass 

You can always develop the left hand of the EZKeys piano line for bass and split the midi data off and send to a bass patch. Doesn't work too bad.

abacab

kennywtelejazz


 It ain't cheating any more than nicking all of Bach's playing and putting it in a plug is ....is It?

Funny that you brought up Bach, besides the fact that dude, Steve Duda, used him in Cthulhu. 
 
It reminded me of my community college library back in the 70's, where they had a music room where you could listen to albums and check them out, etc.  They even had record players with stereo headphones, and bean bag chairs.  Yup, I got a lot of studying done there, right! 
 
I discovered this crazy new record called "Switched on Bach", by Walter Carlos, performed on the Moog synthesizer.
 
I listened to it over and over.  That rocked my world!  I think I was hooked on synthesizers at that moment, although it was another 10 years before I could afford one of my own (not a Moog, but it was still fun).
 
Bach rocked, for sure!!! 

Yes , I got into Bach early early on at first with his traditional music . Then later on with the record you mentioned .
Then in the late 70's I studied with a top NYC studio guitar player named Barry Galbraith ..Barry had a book out where he had taken Bach's 2 part Inventions and arranged them as duets for 2 guitars ...in some cases the songs keys were altered so they were playable true to form ...
The later on I joined Barry's Guitar quartet ...in addition to playing complex Jazz arrangements we did a lot of classical music ...
We did quite a number of Bach's Fugues arranged for 4 guitars and a bass ..We also did a lot of Vivaldi arranged that way ...I wish I had the reading chops I had back then ...
Nowadays I still play some of Bach's solo violin works on the guitar ....more as a hobbyist / hacker  
His music is so deep and it has a calming effect on me ...
 
so calming I decided not to go snail mail your off the hook kid
 

Fleer
He still does. No one ever came close.

 
true that
 
Kenny
 
 

ZincTrumpet
 
What about Air Ignite?  -> http://www.airmusictech.com/product/ignite#.WOiyC_mLSUk 
Sort of a scratchpad for messing around with ideas before moving them to a DAW for further work.

I picked Ignite up for cheap last year on sale.  It's a keeper.  There is a lot to like about this one, but with a few head scratchers tossed in with the implementation.  I hope they continue to develop this and it evolves with the potential that it has.  But overall, it is very original and innovative with it's scratchpad approach.  It's designed to have a few DAW features, but not require any engineering knowledge.  Aimed at musicians that want a non-technical way to write and record their music.  A good way to play a few quick ideas in and then export for DAW.
 
Ignite consists mainly of an Arranger and Piano Roll views.  No project timeline or tracks.  Each clip, or group of clips have it's own timeline.
 
I think all DAWs should have this layout as an optional view.  Keep it simple for inspiration.  For example, you should be able to press a menu button, and get a simple trackless screenset or workspace that lets you freely record audio or MIDI phrases (clips) anywhere you want and to rearrange them into multi-clips and song clips by dragging them around until you like the result.  With Ignite, you can do this.
 
The head scratchers occur if you are used to a full blow DAW, and want to be able to manipulate certain things in Ignite, and discover they deliberately left some feature out to keep things simple.  It is what it is.  Write your tune, and then move onto your real DAW!
 
You can import wave files, and record from two audio inputs.   You can export wave and MIDI to your DAW. 
 
You cannot import MIDI files or patterns, or use VST instruments, but there are 275 MIDI instrument sounds included, as well as some effects.  The sounds are of high quality, most likely borrowed from other AIR instruments, and sound real enough to work with.  Much better than GM sound fonts, LOL!
 
The Play tab shows your onscreen keyboard controller, and has the optional Player Mode switch, which lets you select chord, phrase, or arp mode.  If you select the "Move to key signature" option, the key signature you set in the control bar determines the chords or scale used.  The downside here is that you are limited to major or minor only, and there are a limited number of patterns to work with.  But you can just use normal mode and play in what you want.
 
Once you have recorded your clips, there is no way to change chords or keys in them, except for manually editing them in the piano roll.  So not so great for experimenting with chord changes.  As I said at the beginning of this thread, I am still on a search for the ideal tool to experiment with scales and chords with.
 
Hopefully some of these shortcomings will be addressed with a feature update at some point, but I have noted that there are some feature requests over at the AIR community that have been floating around for a few years.  I hope that AIR plans to continue developing this, because this is a unique tool.

To Zink Trumpet & abacab ,
 
Last night I did what I was talking about a few posts ago ...
I opened up Waveform , took one of the Waveform auto generated chord progressions and played around with it for a little while ...Also ,messed around with the octaves and tried a number of different synths .
Then I opened up BIAB  while Waveform was still opened ...picked a Celtic Tune because I loved the melody .
I slid the melody to the place where you can use the BIAB DAW plugin option , I put BIAB into that mode and slid the melody over as a midi to Waveform on the same track I had the auto generated stuff on
Man it worked great and all was good in my world
Also I haven't seen this mentioned yet ..Waveform has an option where it has what appears to be hundreds of groove options that can be applied to midi
 
all the best,
 
Kenny

tparker24
Interesting article about common chord patterns:

I analyzed the chords of 1300 popular songs for patterns. This is what I found.

"Page not found"

tparker24
Thanks so much for correcting (and expanding) my bad link!

Good content! Thanks for posting!

Lots of good suggestions here, and many items to demo and consider.
 
I think the top 3 contenders at this point for my intended use are (these all run $99 for first timers):
 
Tracktion Waveform Basic
Image Line FL Studio 12 Fruity
Steinberg Cubase Elements 9
 
Waveform has some cool new MIDI composition tools now.  You can set a project key, and then when you add a MIDI clip, you can choose the type: chords, bassline, melody, or arpeggio.  Then the Pattern Generator will work with you to suggest chord progressions in the PRV to work with the scale you selected.  The melody assistant is cool because it shows the ghost notes on the PRV for your chords in the other tracks, so you can drop a melodic line over any of them and remain in key!
 
Waveform is not going to write your song for you, but like a good spell checker does for a word processor, it will help you to spell correctly! 
 
FL Studio has some useful under the hood MIDI features that I was not aware of.  Besides having one of the best Piano Roll Views I have ever used, it offers ghost notes for your other tracks, so as you layer tracks you can follow your chord and scale pattern.  It doesn't suggest progressions, but it does offer a framework for you to glue your MIDI tracks all together in key.  The program doesn't seem to have any concept of a project key, so that part is all up to you.
 
Another cool feature with FL Studio is the stamp tool.  This lets you drop a chord shape into the PRV, like a Major 7th, or a scale type, like a major or minor, and it will then let you drop them as a group of notes that you can move and arrange together. 
 
If you drop a Major 7th, you will get the 4 notes in the relative intervals for that shape, so that you can move the group up and down to any root note.   Same for the scales, except that you get every note in the scale.  Move it to the root note you want and bingo!  It also has a few other tools.
 
And lastly Cubase Elements.  This cut down version has the Arranger track, the Chord track, Chord Assistant with Circle of Fifths.  This is all very cool stuff, but it comes with the learning curve of Cubase.  I must say, that as far as other DAWs besides Sonar, I think the UI designs of Cubase and Studio One are the best looking. 
 
Decisions, decisions ...

Best for ipad http://laurentcolson.com/chordpolypad.html
 
For pc and mac http://autotheory.net/
 
https://www.wavedna.com/liquid-music/

Nino Vargas
 
https://www.wavedna.com/liquid-music/

I have Liquid Rhythm by the same developer.  Nice!  But I haven't checked out the Liquid Music app yet.  Might be worth a look!