Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it?

Author
RnRmaChine
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 420
  • Joined: 8/22/2004
  • Location: Pocono Mountians in PA
  • Status: offline
April 13, 10 11:38 AM (permalink)

Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it?

Hi everyone,
 
I am curious how most of you guys approach mixing with the intent to master a hot CD. Do any of you just mix hot with a limiter on the master or do you mix low like normal then do it all in the mastering phase? OR do you mix with a limiter on just to get an idea of how it will sound once mastered? I have found myself jumping between the "Master" and the "Mix" trying to change things that go wrong when building a hot master. I know Mastering engineers don't do this, they can't, they only have your stereo mix.
 
I am hoping by starting this thread I (we) can glean some info from eachother that I (we) can use in the future. I don't have problems getting a hot CD, I know the basics of multiple comps and a limiter to build it up. What I am hoping to find is info on how to do it better. knowing how to do it and being able to do it don't mean you can do it well... and I want to do it AWESOME!!! hehe
 
I definately am talking about making a hot CD but yet having the illusion you have headroom yet. OR at least a bit of air going on so it don't sound like some noob just got his hands on a brickwall limter then craked it up. HAHA
 
Rob

Sonar Platinum
Windows 7 Pro 64bit
Dual Processors - Intel Xeon X5670 - 6 cores/cpu = 12core w/Hyperthreading = 24core
24GB 10600 DDR3 1333 RAM
1110w PSU
Geforce GTS 450
128GB SanDisk SSD OS/C:drive
WD Blue HDrives Sample, Audio, Storage.
#1

27 Replies Related Threads

    CJaysMusic
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 30423
    • Joined: 10/28/2006
    • Location: Miami - Fort Lauderdale - Davie
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 13, 10 11:40 AM (permalink)
    By mastering it. There's no set steps to it. Every song needs different things done to it. Also, every song needs different things done to it in the tracks, bus's and master bus for it to be hot and clear (not muddy).

    Cj
    Try using high pass filters in your tracks and also use complimentary EQ techniques in your tracks. This will give you more headroom because your taking away unwanted frequencies in each track and in return you can make your entire mix louder
    Cj
    post edited by CJaysMusic - April 13, 10 11:42 AM

    www.audio-mastering-mixing.com - A Professional Worldwide Audio Mixing & Mastering Studio, Providing Online And Attended Sessions. We also do TV commercials, Radio spots & spoken word books
    Audio Blog
    #2
    ohhey
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 11676
    • Joined: 11/6/2003
    • Location: Fort Worth Texas USA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 13, 10 11:46 AM (permalink)
    RnRmaChine


    Hi everyone,
     
    I am curious how most of you guys approach mixing with the intent to master a hot CD. Do any of you just mix hot with a limiter on the master or do you mix low like normal then do it all in the mastering phase? OR do you mix with a limiter on just to get an idea of how it will sound once mastered? I have found myself jumping between the "Master" and the "Mix" trying to change things that go wrong when building a hot master. I know Mastering engineers don't do this, they can't, they only have your stereo mix.
     
    I am hoping by starting this thread I (we) can glean some info from eachother that I (we) can use in the future. I don't have problems getting a hot CD, I know the basics of multiple comps and a limiter to build it up. What I am hoping to find is info on how to do it better. knowing how to do it and being able to do it don't mean you can do it well... and I want to do it AWESOME!!! hehe
     
    I definately am talking about making a hot CD but yet having the illusion you have headroom yet. OR at least a bit of air going on so it don't sound like some noob just got his hands on a brickwall limter then craked it up. HAHA
     
    Rob


    I try to get it as close as I can to the loudness I want as I'm mixing so the compressor is on the main bus.  The reason is every time I try to compress after the mix the mix goes to hell.  For example the bass may be just right in the full dynamics mix but when compressed now it's too loud and so is the Hi-Hat.  And if I try to multiband compress it the entire mix starts sounding "bent".

    So my process during the mix is "what-you-hear-is-what-you-get".   If I get the final mix in SoundForge and find out it needs more then 2db to be loud enough I go back and remix and export again.
    #3
    batsbrew
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 10037
    • Joined: 6/7/2007
    • Location: SL,UT
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 13, 10 12:32 AM (permalink)
    the problem is, most hobbyists that use the mastering 'box of tricks', whether it be an all-in-one in the box package, or their favorite plugins, mostly just make LOUD masters, they don't really sound all that good most of the time.

    to think that someone at home with their computer program, can put out a final product that sounds as good as a real mastering house can put out, is ludicrous.

    but not everybody can afford to go the professional route, and that's fine.


    just don't kid yourself that your home master is going to sound 'as good as' a professional house can put out.


    mastering guys, it took them years and years to get good at it, using the finest outboard gear that exists.


    there's NO WAY, that a newcomer to sonar or any other mastering package (i include myself in this bunch, i use WAVELAB) can get a great hot master without making it sound squashed.



    all THAT said, i love experimenting with wavelab, and the Sonitus plugs, to try to learn my way to nice smooth masters.

    i've given up on going for the HEAT.


    i go for the sound now.

    if i can hear it compressing and limiting, i back it off, and if that makes it quieter than the next guys, that's fine with me.

    i'll say 'hey, turn it up as loud as you want, and you'll find that it does not fatigue your ears like the next guys' mix does'


    there have been volumous books written on the art of mastering.

    if you are not going to start there, then you'll have a long hard journey.

    i would suggest:
    Mastering Audio: The Art and the Science 

    http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Audio-Art-Science-Book/dp/0240805453



    this is where you should begin.


    Bats Brew music Streaming
    Bats Brew albums:
    "Trouble"
    "Stay"
    "The Time is Magic"
    --
    Sonar 6 PE>Bandlab Cakewalk>Studio One 3.5>RME BFP>i7-7700 3.6GHz>MSI B250M>G.Skill Ripjaws 4 series 16GB>Samsung 960 EVO m.2ssd>W 10 Pro
     
    #4
    Hansenhaus
    Max Output Level: -56.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1866
    • Joined: 6/29/2004
    • Location: Delray Beach, FL.
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 13, 10 12:40 AM (permalink)
    I just start my mixes with a few plugs on my the master bus and mix into that from the start. This is a technique I picked up from watching "Mix it Like a Record". Typically I have:

    Voxengo TapeBus - SSL Bus Compressor - Ozone 4.

    I dont push Ozone's limiter up more than 4db and I use the K-14 for metering. I keep an eye on the compressor as the mix builds to make sure its working the way I like it to. Also, I keep the track view faders set to pre-fader so I know I'm not pusing a track or buss to hard and keep my console view to post fader. Keeping the track and bus peak markers on helps a lot as well.

    By doing this is it much easier to adjust a mix by a few dB when merging tunes into a project without the side effects mentioned above.

    Sometimes an over on the master bus can be fixed by simply finding the track that is causing it and reversing the phase. However, you will have to check to make sure a new over does not occur somewhere else. Another way is to find the transient that causes the over, isolate it and nudge it ever so slightly. A lot of times the over goes away and you gain quite a bit of headroom.

    Eric Hansen
    My Website 
    Live Videos
    Acoustic Guitar Pickups
     ---------------
    Core i7 2600K
    Intel DP67BG 
    16GB RAM
    RME HDSP9652 (ASIO)
    Windows 10 x64
    Sonar Platinum x64 (English)
     
    #5
    nprime
    Max Output Level: -51 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2423
    • Joined: 8/16/2004
    • Location: Vancouver
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 13, 10 12:45 AM (permalink)
    Unless you have a magical way of compressing time (hot tub time machine?) you will have to do it the way others have, years of trial and error and long hours of studying the science of sound.

    Everything batsbrew said is dead on.

    VST plugs cannot compare with tens of thousands of dollars of custom made analog gear when it comes to preparing a master. Never mind the acoustically perfect room and high end monitors.

    Also, for the record, I completely disagree with the whole concept of squashing dynamics to get a "loud" mix, but that is another subject.
    post edited by nprime - April 13, 10 12:46 AM

    Listen

    Sonar 5PE
    Intel DP35DP, E6750, 3 GB, 80GB/320 GB
    Scope (6 DSP) w/A16 interface
    PadKontrol, Legacy Series MS20, EZDrummer.
    #6
    papa2005
    Max Output Level: -43 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3250
    • Joined: 8/1/2009
    • Location: Southeastern, US
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 13, 10 4:54 PM (permalink)
    nprime


    Unless you have a magical way of compressing time (hot tub time machine?) you will have to do it the way others have, years of trial and error and long hours of studying the science of sound.

    Everything batsbrew said is dead on.

    VST plugs cannot compare with tens of thousands of dollars of custom made analog gear when it comes to preparing a master. Never mind the acoustically perfect room and high end monitors.

    Also, for the record, I completely disagree with the whole concept of squashing dynamics to get a "loud" mix, but that is another subject.
    Amen to that...


    Regards,
    Papa

    CLICK HERE for a link to support for SONAR 8.5

    CLICK HERE to view a list of video tutorials...
     
    CLICK HERE for a link to Getting Started with Session Drummer 3...
    #7
    thatonejonguy
    Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 74
    • Joined: 12/30/2006
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 13, 10 7:17 PM (permalink)
    I'm going to have to 2nd a lot of stuff already said in this thread. Making "hot" or "loud" masters is a process that takes a lot of time to understand the skills of doing it effectively. And it varies greatly from song to song.

    One thing that helped me a lot when I was first diving into the "loudness" craze was to blur the line between mixing and mastering. After I had completed much of a rough mix, I would start putting multiband compression and limiters on the master buss and start "slamming" it. I would continue mixing with these effects still in place. I would bypass them to hear the difference, and often times had to do a lot of adjusting both with the mix and the effects on the master buss to get it where I wanted it. But after a lot of trial and error, I started to develop a feel for what works and what needs to be handled in the mixing phase and what should be handled with mastering.

    While I tend to agree with the idea that squashing your dynamics for more loudness is generally detrimental to the sound, the fact is still that professionally produced music in most contemporary genres are still more concerned with overall volume than dynamic range. While audio purists or enthusiasts will disagree, the average listener is still under the impression that louder is better. And unfortunately in any media industry, you need to remain competitive within the majority of your potential audience. So until more average listeners become aware of the importance of dynamic range, the need for "loud" masters will still exist.

    Also, something that I have found incredibly useful when mastering is the free TT Dynamic Range Meter.
    http://www.brainworx-music.de/en/download (all the way at the bottom of the page).

    Hope that helps,
    -Jon
    #8
    Crg
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 7719
    • Joined: 11/15/2007
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 13, 10 9:24 PM (permalink)
    Hello, I'm Phil Spector and this is my solid wall of sound. The beginning of the hot sound is much debated, as well as how it was acheived. If you're referencing the hot sound to analog recordings and trying to recreate it in digital the rules will change drastically. In the digital realm it takes quite a bit of tweaking and readjusting of each track and the mixdown to acheive the hot sound. A real mastering house has tools and methods that cost thousands of dollars if not millions. It can be done at home, I haven't done it, but it takes knowledge and work and patience and good equipment. There's no way around it.

    Craig DuBuc
    #9
    pete carr
    Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 185
    • Joined: 3/5/2004
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 13, 10 9:32 PM (permalink)
    CJ,
    Good info..  There is a lot of unneeded frequencies depending on the instrument that can be negatedted which makes the entire mix (final wave form) less wasteful and bloated etc.   Your a good one.
     
    Pete Carr
    www.playthatguitar.com
     
    #10
    DonM
    Max Output Level: -34 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4129
    • Joined: 4/26/2004
    • Location: Pittsburgh
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 13, 10 9:32 PM (permalink)
    I just covered this topic in my class - learn how to measure and hit a desired crest ratio (rms to peak) - I use Sound Forge's statistics to measure the crest ratio.  I compare my master CR to projects done by folks like Bob Clearmountain and Bernie Grundman.  I feel it is imperative to have a baseline for crest ratio and a great product to compare to.

    -D

    ____________________________________
    Check out my new Album  iTunesAmazonCD Baby and recent Filmwork, and Client Release
     
    #11
    montezuma
    Max Output Level: -50 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2520
    • Joined: 10/7/2004
    • Location: Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 13, 10 9:50 PM (permalink)
    The best way to do it is to forget about peaks, forget everything. Just put a limiter at the end of the chain and drive it all the way hard to 0.0. Great results, great fun, great loudness. Easy as pie.
    #12
    timidi
    Max Output Level: -21 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5449
    • Joined: 4/11/2006
    • Location: SE Florida
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 13, 10 10:06 PM (permalink)
    Yea, just smash it. It won't make much difference on MySpace.

    ASUS P8P67, i7-2600K, CORSAIR 16GB, HIS 5450, 3 Samsung SSD 850, Win7 64, RME AIO.
     
    https://timbowman.bandcamp.com/releases
     
    #13
    Living Room Rocker
    Max Output Level: -77 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 675
    • Joined: 9/16/2009
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 14, 10 0:47 PM (permalink)
    First of all, I would rule out the microwave.  It can't be good for CDs.  I have consider using a conventional oven (not to be confused with a convection oven), but I find better success if I just leave it face up in the sun on a very hot day.  The problem there is you have to pay very close attention to the disk as to avoid any warping.  Perhaps a meat or cooking thermometer will do the trick; however, I do not know of the precise temperature at which CDs begin to loose their shape.  I suppose a little trial and error would the in order.

    Kind regards,


    Living Room Rocker
    #14
    Lanceindastudio
    Max Output Level: -29 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4604
    • Joined: 1/22/2004
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 14, 10 4:26 AM (permalink)
    You can do it in a home studio. Ive done it many times.

    It aint easy, and it takes a lot of work, patience, skills, creativity, and a really good ear.

    But it is possible-

    By the way, some tracks just come out right really easily, while other ones are really a pain to get right. It is hit and miss.

    Ive had a record company like my mastering job better than a renowned mastering engineer, and Im talking about a guy that most of you here will know, but I wont mention a name. I was surprised when I heard what he did. It made me feel empowered and thankful for the hours and hours I have put in to learn and experience sound. I felt like I actually have learned something with all my efforts.

    Good luck!

    Asus P8Z77-V LE PLUS Motherboard   
    i7 3770k CPU
    32 gigs RAM
    Presonus AudioBox iTwo
    Windows 10 64 bit, SONAR PLATINUM 64 bit
    Lots of plugins and softsynths and one shot samples, loops
    Gauge ECM-87, MCA SP-1, Alesis AM51
    Presonus Eureka
    Mackie HR824's and matching subwoofer
    #15
    Skyline_UK
    Max Output Level: -54 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2133
    • Joined: 4/15/2004
    • Location: Midlands, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 14, 10 4:51 AM (permalink)
    One thing I learned is that if I'm going to use Wavearts' FinalPlug or Sonar's Boost11 at the end, I make sure the mix has loads of headroom before you use them, i.e. don't normalize, compress, etc too much beforehand.  If I use FinalPlug or Boost11 and the track is already fairly hot then those tools don't work well, and the results sound mashed and fuzzy.  But give them a pretty 'quiet' mix and they will have lots of room to do their thing and produce a much louder result with no unhealthy side effects.
     
    Apart from that, I'm still looking for clues on how to make my tracks 'hot'.  I know that word causes hackles to rise in some, so it all depends on what meaning you attribute to the word.  What I mean by it is this.  I'd ideally like my final results to sound bright, big, and loud but STILL with dynamics, clarity and separation of instruments, etc.  Those aims are not mutually exclusive.  It's what we hear on commercial CDs and what a lot of us would like to come close to, allowing of course for the disparity between our project studios and self-taught techniques compared to world-class studios operated by trained, time-served, experienced professionals.
    post edited by Skyline_UK - April 14, 10 4:53 AM

    My stuff
     
    Intel Sandy Bridge i7 2600 @ 3.4GHz, 4 cores, 8 threads, 16GB RAM.
    OS & Programs drive: 240GB SSD
    Data drives: 1 x 1TB drive RAID mirrored, plus extra 1TB data drive 
    Windows 10 Home 64 bit
    Cakewalk by BandLab 64 bit, Studio One 3, 
    Band In A Box 2016, Ozone 8
    + too many other plugins
    BandLab page
    #16
    batsbrew
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 10037
    • Joined: 6/7/2007
    • Location: SL,UT
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 14, 10 2:44 PM (permalink)
    It's what we hear on commercial CDs 



    all i know is, rarely do i hear what i would call a 'dynamic' mix on a commercially released cd.




    it is typically one dimensional, a wall of sound, where the quietest passage, and the most intense bass/drums/guitar interaction, are all the same volume.




    and typically, when you rip the wav and look at the form, it's a long rectangle.




    that, is not the definition of dynamics.



    Bats Brew music Streaming
    Bats Brew albums:
    "Trouble"
    "Stay"
    "The Time is Magic"
    --
    Sonar 6 PE>Bandlab Cakewalk>Studio One 3.5>RME BFP>i7-7700 3.6GHz>MSI B250M>G.Skill Ripjaws 4 series 16GB>Samsung 960 EVO m.2ssd>W 10 Pro
     
    #17
    CJaysMusic
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 30423
    • Joined: 10/28/2006
    • Location: Miami - Fort Lauderdale - Davie
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 14, 10 2:45 PM (permalink)
    You put that with the compression radio stations add and smmmmmoooooshhhhhh
    Cj

    www.audio-mastering-mixing.com - A Professional Worldwide Audio Mixing & Mastering Studio, Providing Online And Attended Sessions. We also do TV commercials, Radio spots & spoken word books
    Audio Blog
    #18
    timidi
    Max Output Level: -21 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5449
    • Joined: 4/11/2006
    • Location: SE Florida
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 14, 10 3:06 PM (permalink)

    I just go with the flow myself (to a point).
    The trend is your friend:)
    I like the overcompressed sound on some stuff. But, that is a matter of interpretation as to how much is "over" and what music is suited for it and what effect is being sought.

    Who says lots of dynamics is always a good thing? well, Bob Katz does. 
    I tend to most of the time but I'll just ramble a little for the heck of it. 

    Music is sound and sometimes a creation is not necessarily just a sum of the instruments and vocals used but also the technology involved to create it. Part of that technology may be to integrate everything heard as one total instrument or voice by squashing it. After all, it is not Live music, it's a CD or Mp3 listened to on an electronic device. Some love to argue about this or that not being right because that's not what it sounds like live or what this room or that room sounds like or it wouldn't be smashed like that at Carnegie hall or whatever. 
    Well, guess what. It's not live, recorded music is it's own medium of expression.

    2c


    ASUS P8P67, i7-2600K, CORSAIR 16GB, HIS 5450, 3 Samsung SSD 850, Win7 64, RME AIO.
     
    https://timbowman.bandcamp.com/releases
     
    #19
    devilcat78
    Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 57
    • Joined: 12/8/2009
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 14, 10 3:27 PM (permalink)
    I use no compresssion , limiting or EQ on my mix bus. Personally, I print mixes with peaks at -6db, sometimes an over here or there, as long as it sounds good and there is no distortion.

    As far as loudness of the final master, I am in far favor of dynamics vs. squashing the crap out of a mix, there is a reason that the volume on your stereo goes to 10, or 11:).

    I just recently had my bands' cd mastered @ a professional mastering house, attended the session, and realized that what I knew about mastering was only a drop in the bucket about this craft.

    The engineer actually thanked me for leaving a good amount of headroom, and not using any master buss eq or compression. He offered mix evaluations before we mastered with him, allowing us to get as close as we could to the final mix and still allow him enough room to do his job.

    To each their own, but this was my experience.
    #20
    RnRmaChine
    Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 420
    • Joined: 8/22/2004
    • Location: Pocono Mountians in PA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 14, 10 7:05 PM (permalink)
    Thanks alot everyone for chiming in. Seems like a decent amount of insight here and I gleened a couple things. I too have been at this for years now and find myself having trouble with some songs while others just seem to happen all on their own... mix/master wise. It's usually the Hard Rock-Metal songs I have the most trouble with. You have to compress a fair amount to get certain sounds and some compressors just don't work well at those levels. It seems I can do well when I go for a 80s-90s hard-rock/metal sound but a more modern sound like Nickelback (their heavier stuff) is quite difficult to get even close too. Granted, a BIG part of it is the gear but I should be able to come somewhat close with what I have.

    I am finding right now, my BIGGEST problem is fitting the bass guitar into the mix properly, when going for a louder (hot) CD. I find on small computer speakers the bass guitar gets lost. Since most of my songs (that I need help with) are guitar driven I don't want to sacrifice too much here. The two recording books I own are "The Musicians Guide to Home Recording-revised" and "The Hal Leonard - Mixing and Mastering" by Bill Gibson (book 6) They are wonderful books and def taught me a lot. I have read them over and over again, refering back to them often. The first book I mentioned I have been reading for years. I actually have the original print (non revised) that I was using back when I owned a sansui 6-track LOL. BUT these books do not go into the "modern guitar driven" mix/master. They certainly teach you how to make a decent mix and have a number of tricks, but apparently I am missing something.

    Hoping someone chimes in and gives me a bit more precise advise now.. that we all can use in this area. Also, I have read you do not want to compress the bass guitar too much but I am finding it difficult not too... any advice here?

    Rob
    post edited by RnRmaChine - April 14, 10 7:08 PM

    Sonar Platinum
    Windows 7 Pro 64bit
    Dual Processors - Intel Xeon X5670 - 6 cores/cpu = 12core w/Hyperthreading = 24core
    24GB 10600 DDR3 1333 RAM
    1110w PSU
    Geforce GTS 450
    128GB SanDisk SSD OS/C:drive
    WD Blue HDrives Sample, Audio, Storage.
    #21
    ChuckC
    Max Output Level: -61 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1488
    • Joined: 2/13/2010
    • Location: Port Charlotte, Fl
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 14, 10 7:16 PM (permalink)
    I am just really getting into mastering on my own for the 1st time,  I can tell you that I have always hated how with every band I have ever recorded with in a pro studio (about 6 different cds over the years)...  We would get "rough mix" cds as we finished each session or group of sessions.  They would sound pretty good, maybe this was a little low, that was a bit hot in the mix but generally pretty good.  Then we'd get to mixing & mastering and by the time the engineer was done stepping on it & squashing it... I hated it.   I can remember a moment in each recording thinking Oh my god that sounds like sh t now?!  As the others in the band sat forward going YEAH, & the engineer sat back in his chair like "yeah baby.... I am good....".   I want my recordings to come out at comparable volumes to commercial stuff, but not at the expense of the sound.  

    ADK Built DAW, W7, Sonar Platinum, Studio One Pro,Yamaha HS8's & HS8S  Presonus Studio/Live 24.4.2, A few decent mic pre's,  lots of mics, 57's,58 betas, Sm7b, LD Condensors, Small condensors, Senn 421's,  DI's,  Sans Amp, A few guitar amps etc. Guitars : Gib. LP, Epi. Lp, Dillion Tele, Ibanez beater, Ibanez Ergodyne 4 String bass, Mapex Mars series 6 pc. studio kit, cymbals and other sh*t.
    http://www.everythingiam.net/
    http://www.stormroomstudios.com
    Some of my productions: http://soundcloud.com/stormroomstudios
    #22
    ChuckC
    Max Output Level: -61 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1488
    • Joined: 2/13/2010
    • Location: Port Charlotte, Fl
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 14, 10 7:24 PM (permalink)
    While we are on the topic (roughly)....

      1) I am noticing that I am recording tracks & as I am tracking in say a guitar or bass etc.  I am hitting about -6db on the meter & have a good strong signal.  I finish the take I like, disarm the track & hit play....  Many times the signal is so low & am slamming up the trim & at times adding boost11 to the track to get it to a proper volume to mix with.....   What am I doing wrong here?
    2)
    I write & record alot of pop, rock, punk, ska stuff.  I like a tight in your face , right up front kind of snare sound....   If I am mixing & the snare keeps popping that red peak meter on the track, but doesn't audibly distort or anything... Is that ok?  Or is it doing some detrimental damage to the overall track that I am not aware of?   Should I just bring everything else down?

     Thanks.

    ADK Built DAW, W7, Sonar Platinum, Studio One Pro,Yamaha HS8's & HS8S  Presonus Studio/Live 24.4.2, A few decent mic pre's,  lots of mics, 57's,58 betas, Sm7b, LD Condensors, Small condensors, Senn 421's,  DI's,  Sans Amp, A few guitar amps etc. Guitars : Gib. LP, Epi. Lp, Dillion Tele, Ibanez beater, Ibanez Ergodyne 4 String bass, Mapex Mars series 6 pc. studio kit, cymbals and other sh*t.
    http://www.everythingiam.net/
    http://www.stormroomstudios.com
    Some of my productions: http://soundcloud.com/stormroomstudios
    #23
    RnRmaChine
    Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 420
    • Joined: 8/22/2004
    • Location: Pocono Mountians in PA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 14, 10 9:23 PM (permalink)
    Hey ChuckC,

    On question #1 that should not be the case. Once a guitar is recorded those are usually the things I need to turn down a bit. I do use a fair amount of comp during recording though. The cleaner the guitar and the slower the song the less I tend to use. Bass guitar should be recorded with a limiter or a comp set up to act somewhat like a limiter. So you can get a bit hotter of a record signal. For the signal to noise ratio crap. My main problem is I tend to make the bass suffer in the mix so I can get the drums and guitars sounding like I want. LOL

    On #2, Try a limiter on the snare if you need it that loud.. don't forget how important reverb/ambience is to a big snare sound. The close tight reflections help a lot.

    I also agree with that over doing it crap from recording in so called "pro studios".. I remember being in this one with a 16track fostex reel to reel. Everything sounded great until he started comping with a lousy Alesis 2020.. I wanted to barf. As if we didn't have enough trouble sounding good. LOL I made him take it out of the entire loop.. even on bypass those things suck.

    Rob

    Sonar Platinum
    Windows 7 Pro 64bit
    Dual Processors - Intel Xeon X5670 - 6 cores/cpu = 12core w/Hyperthreading = 24core
    24GB 10600 DDR3 1333 RAM
    1110w PSU
    Geforce GTS 450
    128GB SanDisk SSD OS/C:drive
    WD Blue HDrives Sample, Audio, Storage.
    #24
    Guitarhacker
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 24398
    • Joined: 12/7/2007
    • Location: NC
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 14, 10 9:39 PM (permalink)
    I took one of Ozone 4's presets and tweezed it to my liking. Then I saved it with a new name. It is my "go to first" preset to use. Generally I don't have to do much to the settings in any of the songs I use it in.

    My goal is to have a decently loud mix, but no overcompression. I will export the song as a wave and take a look at it in my editor.  I look to be sure it touches the peak once in a while but it doesn't stay there for extended time periods. If it does, I go back and "turn it down" and export it again to check it.

    I try to get it to look like this: it has plenty of space in it and it's loud enough to rock



    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

    MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW   
    Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface


    BMI/NSAI

    "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer 
    #25
    RnRmaChine
    Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 420
    • Joined: 8/22/2004
    • Location: Pocono Mountians in PA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 15, 10 3:59 AM (permalink)
    Thnx guitar hacker... I take it you like Ozone. I have never tried it, I am going to look into it.

    I probably just need to accept the fact that I will only be able to do so much with what I have. I really should be pleased with how well I can get it. I just wanna do the best I can.

    Rob

    Sonar Platinum
    Windows 7 Pro 64bit
    Dual Processors - Intel Xeon X5670 - 6 cores/cpu = 12core w/Hyperthreading = 24core
    24GB 10600 DDR3 1333 RAM
    1110w PSU
    Geforce GTS 450
    128GB SanDisk SSD OS/C:drive
    WD Blue HDrives Sample, Audio, Storage.
    #26
    Bristol_Jonesey
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 16775
    • Joined: 10/8/2007
    • Location: Bristol, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 15, 10 6:56 AM (permalink)
    Nice looking track there Guitarhacker, that's the sdort of thing I try to aim for.

    ChuckC, just my initial thoughts:

    1) I am noticing that I am recording tracks & as I am tracking in say a guitar or bass etc.  I am hitting about -6db on the meter & have a good strong signal.  I finish the take I like, disarm the track & hit play....  Many times the signal is so low & am slamming up the trim & at times adding boost11 to the track to get it to a proper volume to mix with.....   What am I doing wrong here?


    Without knowing anything else my first thought is that you nmeed to lower all the other tracks in your mix so that anytihng else added sits right without needing any sort of boost or limiter.


    2) I write & record alot of pop, rock, punk, ska stuff.  I like a tight in your face , right up front kind of snare sound....   If I am mixing & the snare keeps popping that red peak meter on the track, but doesn't audibly distort or anything... Is that ok?  Or is it doing some detrimental damage to the overall track that I am not aware of?   Should I just bring everything else down?


    I think this depends on where the peak occurs.
    My understanding is that it's ok for tracks to peak as 32 bit (or higher), floating point DAWs can handle this without any problems. The one area you DON'T want to go anywhere near the red is on your soundcards outputs - i.e. just before it hits your DAC.

    Any signal clipping here will result in audible, non-musical distortion which you definitely don't want.

    CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughout
    Custom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
    #27
    mattplaysguitar
    Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1992
    • Joined: 1/2/2006
    • Location: Gold Coast, Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re:Making Hot CDs... how do YOU do it? April 16, 10 3:36 AM (permalink)
    What I am about to share with you is knowledge I have gained from books. I have not got to the stage yet where I am trying to master hot tracks (I'll learn that when I finish enough songs for an album!). So personal experience here is minimal!

    Firstly, a loud master is NOT made by putting a brickwall limiter on the master buss and letting it go crazy. A loud master is not one little thing - it's the addition of a multitude of many techniques. This of course makes the whole process that much complicated - which is why we leave it to the pros. Each little bit interacts with each other little bit, leaving almost unlimited combinations in settings to get it right. You have to be experienced to do this.

    So, lets get started. First book I take some knowledge from a book on mixing - not mastering (no need to name names). As you can imagine - this is to do with individual tracks, not the final mix. This is before the mastering. He does not actually say specifically to use this as a mastering means to make songs louder, more for individual tracks to make them cut through. But this 'could' work if done to all tracks to some degree - or on the entire mix. This is NOT word for word, but the same idea. I'm not copying it out exactly, this is my interpretation. Have not tried it, but it looks promising. So, compressor settings, lets go:

    knee - soft knee is vital to reduce pumping effects. You want to bring the really loud bits right down and the bits only a little too loud just down a little bit, so a soft knee works perfectly for this. Increase the knee so it covers the full dynamic range of the piece. If the range is about 30dB, set the knee to that.

    ratio - maximum. nice a simple. Infinity or whatever the compressor goes to. The compressor probably will never hit this due to the soft knee. If you don't understand - read up on what knee does - important.

    Threshold - set to half the span of the knee. If the knee is 30dB (cause the dynamic range of the piece is 30dB) then set to -15dB. This is because the knee works on both sides of the threshold. Threshold is your middle ground point. Very important to understand this.

    Attack and Release - A percussive piece needs these short so it can recover quickly and grab the transients. Longer for more percussive pieces. Probably want something shorter for mastering a track - BUT observe low frequency as the compressor will start attacking the bass notes. If this is a problem, you're going to have to multi-band it or side-chain it (with the bass rolled off), or find a nice middle-ground (this is an addition by me, not from the book).

    Level detection - I believe Bob Katz prefers RMS, but peak may be useful if the sound is very percussive.

    So, I have actually tried this on an acoustic and it works very well. Did not tweak it, but quick settings gave me a louder sound, much more contained/restrained, fuller sound. Don't push it too far though. Really minimal pumping from this. Quite transparent.

    So, what does my other book say? This is from a very well known book on mastering. A little bit of each of these can get you on the way.

     - Nice and simple, high frequency content is perceived as much louder than low frequency content when at the same level. This means low frequencies eat up a lot of headroom. So highpass those things out as much as is safe! A high frequency or presence boost can also help you out too - just don't go too far.

     - Parallel Compression. The King. Compressing your track using the techniques above can be great for use as the compressed track. This can also add power and oomph to your mix that may have been missing. It's truly great, I love it.

     - Digital Peak Limiting - this is pretty much your brickwall limiter I believe, you can probably get 1 or 2 dB pretty safely using this.

     - Surprisingly, Clipping. Digital can be pretty bad, so not much of this. Then a bit of analogue domain clipping (probably quite expensive!). This used with peak limiting, you MAY get 0.5dB from digital clipping, 1dB from analogue, and 1dB from limiting.


    Not mentioned in either of these is multiband. I think it can help you out a bit. I have tried smashing the hell out of the low range and this got me about 1-2dB more worth of limiting before it got really bad. Keep in mind I did NOT tweak the settings on the low end in the multiband, so the bass sounded pretty whimpy, but this could potentially get you something, if used carefully. If you didn't smash the bass quite so much so it actually still sounded fine, you might only get 0.5dB out of it; but these things all add up.


    The moral is, it's lots of little things to get there. Just boost11 on the master will NOT do the job.

    Most important thing of all to remember:



    ALWAYS LISTEN AT THE SAME VOLUME. ADJUST YOUR OUTPUT SO IT HAS THE SAME PERCEIVED LOUDNESS WHEN BYPASSED AND ON. If you do this, you will find audible loss with even just 1dB reduction on the very tips of the audio. You're always going to lose, you just need to decide by how much! The art of compromise. The modern music dictionary lost the definition of compromise many years ago, help put it back in there!



    www.turnmeup.org




    Currently recording my first album, so if you like my music, please follow me on Facebook!
    http://www.facebook.com/mattlyonsmusic

    www.mattlyonsmusic.com 

    #28
    Jump to:
    © 2025 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1