Making mix hotter

Are you sure you're not over compressing your individual tracks?

Just a thought. (probably the wrong one, though)

Kalle Rantaaho


My guess is there is something too hot on the top of the mix (kick?) and the maximizer has to work too hard on it and the result gets undesirable.

Work a little more on balancing the mix, that's my best guess.

And anyways, stacking volume maximizers is the 100% wrong way. Add subtle (s-u-b-t-l-e!!) compression on some tracks on the way, maybe compose some volume envelopes etc., so that Ozone only does the polishing, not all the squeezing in one go.

How do you recommend balancing the mix if nothing is clipping?

Care to share a clip before and after Ozone?

It might help someone to hear the problem.

Whenever you go for a very loud radio-ready let's-compress-the-f-out-of-this-bad-boy mix, you have to make tradeoffs. Trade offs in dynamic range, EQ, etc etc. However the trick is to mask it as much as possible to give the best sound for your project but still get a blasting sound.

What you need to remember is that cutting is more important than adding. Every time you make something louder or boost an EQ or something like that you're going to lose a lot of information somewhere else in the mix. So if your goal in your head is 'I need to make this loud, loud loud!', you will probably be making bad decisions all the way through your mixing.

The others have good advice, in that you want to spend a lot of time getting used to your mix without the mastering or maximizing as a crutch. What is sticking out? What is taking up too much frequency range, what is holding back your instruments and parts from sitting right in the mix?

When you compress individual tracks for a hard mix you have to be very careful about your gain compensation. Also what sort of level are your individual tracks sitting at?

Sounds to me like it's all too loud, too blasted before it hits OZone, so OZone does a tiny bit of work and it gets too crushed. Personally I hit my threshold a lot harder than yours in oZone, but keep in mind that is only because I set my mixes up to be able to do this - in order words when I go -3, it's hardly doing anything, this way I have more room to play with. Of course there is a fine line, you don't want to have too little gain etc coming in, but you also want room to play with.

You have to be very, very specific with each and every instrument on your track. If you have limiters and things like that on individual channels, be very clear about why you have it there. Why is x boosted so much, why do you have x low frequency on the guitars coming through blocking the path of the kick drum? etc etc. With compressors - at a low volume sometimes you can't hear the problems until its time to up the volume - are you checking all your attacks and thresholds to make sure each track is doing what it is supposed to do etc?

The key to a very well produced hot mix is being very specific and careful with everything you do.

If you have a well recorded mix with good headroom and nothing spiking, you can get a very loud mix. It all comes down to what is happening outside of the master bus. What a lot of people tend to do is put limiters on things for no apparent reason, boost the hell out of maybe the guitars or the kick drum, maybe bass - then when it comes time to master there's no space left to make it loud. You have to keep it pretty flat if you want it to be really loud. There are tricks you can do to give the illusion of dynamic range but essentially, you are trading this off for a super loud mix.

Also I forgot to mention: The real key to using oZone is in the multi-band compressor. This is how you get your levels and your overall EQ sorted, less so than in the main screen, because this way you are able to be more specific about each frequency and its level.

ChrisBG


Whenever you go for a very loud radio-ready let's-compress-the-f-out-of-this-bad-boy mix, you have to make tradeoffs. Trade offs in dynamic range, EQ, etc etc. However the trick is to mask it as much as possible to give the best sound for your project but still get a blasting sound.

What you need to remember is that cutting is more important than adding. Every time you make something louder or boost an EQ or something like that you're going to lose a lot of information somewhere else in the mix. So if your goal in your head is 'I need to make this loud, loud loud!', you will probably be making bad decisions all the way through your mixing.

The others have good advice, in that you want to spend a lot of time getting used to your mix without the mastering or maximizing as a crutch. What is sticking out? What is taking up too much frequency range, what is holding back your instruments and parts from sitting right in the mix?

When you compress individual tracks for a hard mix you have to be very careful about your gain compensation. Also what sort of level are your individual tracks sitting at?

Sounds to me like it's all too loud, too blasted before it hits OZone, so OZone does a tiny bit of work and it gets too crushed. Personally I hit my threshold a lot harder than yours in oZone, but keep in mind that is only because I set my mixes up to be able to do this - in order words when I go -3, it's hardly doing anything, this way I have more room to play with. Of course there is a fine line, you don't want to have too little gain etc coming in, but you also want room to play with.

You have to be very, very specific with each and every instrument on your track. If you have limiters and things like that on individual channels, be very clear about why you have it there. Why is x boosted so much, why do you have x low frequency on the guitars coming through blocking the path of the kick drum? etc etc. With compressors - at a low volume sometimes you can't hear the problems until its time to up the volume - are you checking all your attacks and thresholds to make sure each track is doing what it is supposed to do etc?

The key to a very well produced hot mix is being very specific and careful with everything you do.

If you have a well recorded mix with good headroom and nothing spiking, you can get a very loud mix. It all comes down to what is happening outside of the master bus. What a lot of people tend to do is put limiters on things for no apparent reason, boost the hell out of maybe the guitars or the kick drum, maybe bass - then when it comes time to master there's no space left to make it loud. You have to keep it pretty flat if you want it to be really loud. There are tricks you can do to give the illusion of dynamic range but essentially, you are trading this off for a super loud mix.

Also I forgot to mention: The real key to using oZone is in the multi-band compressor. This is how you get your levels and your overall EQ sorted, less so than in the main screen, because this way you are able to be more specific about each frequency and its level.

Thanks all for the helpful replies. Chris, to answer some of your questions.. My overall track levels are usually at -6db and I try to stay out of the red on all my tracks as much as possible. I put compression on everything except drums(4:1 ratio mainly). I turn it up a bit on my bass guitar because it seems those deep low end notes smash through while the others blend in well. I have tried re-eq'ing my bass and keeping it away from the elec guitar frequencies to help with that.  I use HPF and LPF on just about every instrument except drums, because they are MIDI drums and my options in Battery 3 as far as EQ goes, are quite limited.  I up the gain and turn down the threshold and it seems to even out the spikes with vocals and such.

It seems right now my mix is completely overloaded. The guitars are too powerful (even when turning them down) but when listening to them solo, it sounds good. Same with each individual track..they sound fine solo, but over loaded all together.  This is where my confusion sets in.. none of my tracks are spiking, I have HP and LP filters on everything so there's no frequency conflicts, but still having undesired results. 

Very frustrating going from here as I've been working on this one mix for WAAY too long! I just want to get it done and over with lol.

Main thing is to get a good balanced mix first.  Making the final product hot is for the mastering stage. 

If everything just sounds too jumbled and overloaded, then there is probably too much compression on each instrument.  I use compression on bass tracks just to smooth over the bottom end.  Usually I roll off the low end on guitars so they don't interfere with the bass. 

Sometimes tracks that sound good by themselves may not work in the mix.  Frequencies between instruments may step on each other causing either boosting or cancellations at certain frequencies.  Each instrument needs its space in the audio spectrum. 

Once you have a good balanced mix, then it's time to use your mastering tools.  I've been using Slate Digital FG-X for mastering.   I use just a small amount of compression on the final mix with no more 2:1 ratio.   Then I use the FG Level to get the hot levels with usually a level of about -10db RMS.   The nice thing about the FG-X is the Constant Gain Monitoring which allows you to compare what you are adding to the unprocessed signal with both being at the same level.  With this comparison I can tell if the compression and level are changing the sound of the mix.  I've quit using the multi-band compressors and limiters once I started using the FG-X once I heard how transparent my mixes are now. 

Jim

Radio compresses the bejeebers out of your signal before transmission.  They will do that for you.

If you want to match a commerical release send your songs to a professional mastering house.  If you want to do it at home be ready to spend $10,000 for a stereo channel on top of your room and monitors.

If that is beyone your finances too, be ready for your music to be a dB or 3 below a commercial release - and your music will be more dynamic.  Very few will tell teh difference, and that is what the vol. knob is for (or in ITunes they can use their crappy limiter).

Make sure your mix sounds as good as possible.  Then play w/ killing the dynamics with Ozone etc.  If your mix is -12 dB to -6 you'll have no problem pumping it up a few average dB w/o ruining the entire sound.

@

Again, thanks all for the replies.

First off, I may have misspoke using the terms "radio ready". I do know that radio stations squash the hell out of the songs with their compressors. What I was referring to is getting a high quality production mix best I can without high end equipment..like SSL boards and such. I am planning on building a studio out, but that's in the future.  I think the main problem here, as you all have said is frequency and compression. Here is where I get confused, and I'm sure most of you can clear this up for me. I have looked at numerous articles trying to figure this out, but haven't really found a direct answer to my question. 

I always hear engineers say when it comes to frequencies.. "make room in the mix".  My confusion sets in at this point as to where the "room" needs to start and end for each instrument. What I mean by this is how exactly are things that use the same frequencies supposed to fit without overriding or squashing each other?  For example..this song I am working on is a hard rock / metal song, so my guitars I would like to be very prominent in the mix, as I feel its the driving force in the music, as well as the kick drums. I want them thumpy with a bit of click for clarity when you hear the double bass going.  My instruments are set as this..

I have 2 guitars going, panned hard left and right(100%), using the frequency range of 200hz - 9khz. The HP filter starts at the 200 to attenuate the highs, and LP starting at 10khz so it's not so piercing. My bass guitar is using the range of  50hz - 600hz with the LP filter starting at 600hz. Kick drums are using a bit of both in those ranges. 30hz - 70hz for the thump, and boosting about 3k for some click with a  Q setting of about 5.0.. maybe a bit more with a narrower boost in the high range for more click / machine gun style doubble bass. I am also slightly scooping the mids for some more thump. Cymbal range is started with the default eq "straight line" settings, with a slight boost from 5khz - 8khz..I dont boost that too high since tinny cymbals are a bit obnoxious. Vox seem to be eveywhere across the board depending on the line I am singing / screaming. Deeper voice parts obviously take up the lows, and higher notes taking up the highs.  I do have HP / LP filters on all vocal tracks just to keep it clean.  Also, I would like to mention that I cut frequencies rather then boost, but this tends to make the mix sound weak..but it is the method to do from what I understand.

So.. with that being said..  If the vocals are all over across the board, the bass using frequencies the bass drums are using and guitars using close to the same frequencies as the cymbals.. how does this all fit to "make room" in the mix?  Guitar solos and over part melody tracks are especially a pain in the ass to hear since they seem to get lost in the mix over the rhythm guitars ( which I have turned down) and also gave those tracks a bit of a boost in the 7khz range. 

Does this configuration look good to you guys, or is something missing that is causing these instruments to squash each other?

Thanks in advance!

Here's a proposition. Post a 30-second portion of your song - exported without Ozone in the chain and encoded as a 320kb/s MP3 - somewhere we can download it. I'll bet more than one person here would be willing to take a crack at mastering it and send you the result. Choose the one(s) you like best and then ask for details about how it was done.

I suggest this approach because no one can give you specific advice without knowing more about your song. What are the peak and average RMS values going into the master limiter? What is the style and instrumentation? Why is the output slider set to -1.9db in your screenshot?

bitflipper


Here's a proposition. Post a 30-second portion of your song - exported without Ozone in the chain and encoded as a 320kb/s MP3 - somewhere we can download it. I'll bet more than one person here would be willing to take a crack at mastering it and send you the result. Choose the one(s) you like best and then ask for details about how it was done.

I suggest this approach because no one can give you specific advice without knowing more about your song. What are the peak and average RMS values going into the master limiter? What is the style and instrumentation? Why is the output slider set to -1.9db in your screenshot?

I'll go ahead and clip something out and find a download spot. Is there a way in Sonar to export a portion of the song instead of the whole thing? I do not know what the RMS levels are as I have never really messed with it, and still a bit unclear..  I read your post over at gearslutz about RMS levels, but most of it went over my head lol. I am still a beginner in many ways when it comes to this stuff, although recording is not new to me. The ozone -1.9db is because I was messing with the levels. I usually keep it dead in the middle. When you say style and instrumentation, are you referring to the style of music and what instruments are being used? If so, the style is hard rock / metal and the instruments used are guitars (distorted), bass guitar , drums and vocals. Nothing complicated compared to other types of music I'm sure.

But as far as my original question goes.. do the instruments start to cancel each other out if its the same frequency range with the same gain? or if the gain levels are different using the same range do they shine through separately?  Not just a difference in volume, but an actual squash of the instruments using those ranges.     

All my tracks do not go above -6db. I try to keep all my tracks out of the red for head room if needed.

-6db doesnt mean anything. If you have 10 tracks at -6dB, your mater bus will be over saturated, because the sum of all those 10 tracks at -6db will be way over 0dB!!
 
DB is all relative and there is no correct setting for this. Proper gain staging is imperative and Eq'ing all tracks is a good idea to get rid of all unwanted junk frequencies that add up and keep you from getting a loud song

CJaysMusic

All my tracks do not go above -6db. I try to keep all my tracks out of the red for head room if needed.

-6db doesnt mean anything. If you have 10 tracks at -6dB, your mater bus will be over saturated, because the sum of all those 10 tracks at -6db will be way over 0dB!!
 
DB is all relative and there is no correct setting for this. Proper gain staging is imperative and Eq'ing all tracks is a good idea to get rid of all unwanted junk frequencies that add up and keep you from getting a loud song

Sorry CJ, I'm not understanding this.. if all my tracks are at -6db, then all these add up to the point of over saturation?  If that's the case then what does each track need to be set at to avoid over saturation?  What should  the gain settings be?

kjs00333


Sorry CJ, I'm not understanding this.. if all my tracks are at -6db, then all these add up to the point of over saturation?  If that's the case then what does each track need to be set at to avoid over saturation?  What should  the gain settings be?

There's no hard and fast rule on this stuff, but he's right that you can have lots of non-peaking individual tracks piling up into a peaky, clipping avalanche at the master bus.

My starting rule of thumb, when I'm starting with the drums, is that I get the kick and the snare hovering* around -15db on the meters and build the rest of the mix around that. This will seem bizarrely low to you the first time you try it, but just turn your monitors up. You'll be amazed at how quickly you build into a loud overall track; the headroom fills up fairly rapidly.

* EDIT: I originally said "peaking", which was not what I meant.

http://www.popmusic.dk/do...s-in-digital-audio.pdf

Is there a way in Sonar to export a portion of the song instead of the whole thing?

Yes. Select all tracks by pressing CTL-A, then drag your mouse along the timeline to highlight a section. When you export, it will just export that section. Be sure to bypass any plugins on the master bus, especially Ozone.