Helpful ReplyMastering

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Beathaven
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2013/08/03 13:32:37 (permalink)

Mastering

When mastering a final mix what is the correct sequence of effects ie. does EQ come first followed by what - compression - limiting - reverb? What is the last (final) effect(s) to use in the chain? Also what are track plug-ins vs mastering plug-ins? Thanks to anyone/all taking the time to help me out!! (I'm amazed at how many of you "in the know" folks on this forum sacrifice valuable time to help others such as myself!!!
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konradh
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/03 14:05:34 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/08/04 22:22:09
I would say compression before EQ is most common.

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jonny3d
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/03 15:25:39 (permalink)
I go with what Konrad says....you see if you put an eq first...the boost in a certain frequency may cause the compressor to clamp down on the boosted frequency(s) - causing unwanted interference with the eq process ..... if the boost is after the compressor the eq will be free to go up and down without the compressor affecting those peaks.....perhaps a multiband compressor and of course the limiter last...... ...I set up a separate bus for the "room reverb" (I often do a high pass filter to remove low end from hitting the verb to hard) and mix the room verb buss and the master buss to a 'buss' I call OUT and  adjust final balance between the two.
I hope this helps.    for more check out Google: mix master buss compressor 
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gswitz
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/03 17:22:47 (permalink)
So... I'm sure I'm the only one who's perpetually puzzled by the whole MASTERING thing. It leaves me flat. I mean... I visit CJs site and I can hear amazing differences between 'mastered' and pre-mastered tracks.
 
To me, mastering means magic applied to a single stereo wave file that makes it awesome. I don't think of mastering as the FX I throw on the master bus.
 
I don't do this myself. I don't own any tools outside of Sonar - no magic Waves plugs... no dongles.
 
So, if I had to take a stereo wave file from a stranger and try to make it sound better, I would have to automate the compression and LP64_EQ settings so that I only enhanced where it helped and I only compressed where required.
 
But I have NO IDEA WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT because I NEVER DO THIS.
 
I'm usually rushed to mix and burn and move on.
 
That said, I want to learn to do it. I'm just no good at it right now. When I use a multi-band compressor I often just stick it on and I use the ALL button most of the time and set every band the same (compression really light and usually lighting in only the second band of the 5). Wouldn't raising and lowering the bands be like applying EQ in a sort of graceless way? So I don't. I also don't automate LP64_EQ although I do sometimes use one on the master bus.
 
To me, mastering is a magic that is on the list to learn. I don't consider myself to know the first thing about it.
 
 So, you people who know... school me. I've bought books (Katz and others). Am I even right when I say that mastering is working a single stereo wave? Am I right about automation of EQs and Compressors on that wave?
 
If asked, I could list my standard steps in bouncing 10 Waves to a stereo wave. I could list the steps for setting up a compressor on a banjo or guitar. So... what are the steps you take when mastering ? -- I'm not asking theoretically. Practically, the last time you mastered, how did you start... what tools did you use? what envelopes?

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/03 17:46:33 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/08/04 22:21:47
It depends a bit what order to put things in EQ or compression. I actually do it the other way around and EQ first. Especially if the track I am mastering has an excess of energy in the spectrum eg suppose there is a lot of low end present or too much 300 Hz present. With the compressor first it is going to act on those frequencies and that will effect how the compressor reacts to the rest of the spectrum. By EQ ing first you are actually correcting what you are feeding into the compressor and hence the compressor will react more evenly to the overall sound. So there is an argument against what has been said so far.
 
When the mix is very well balanced energy wise though then it is slightly less critical and either way can work. But even in a very good mix there is still some very extreme parts of the spectrum that needs a little work eg very low and high end and I prefer to get those right first then the compressor is not having to deal with an excess in those areas. It is usually happier. Be good to ask Danny what order he puts things in. I think he runs the mix through the LP64 first to clean the extreme parts of the spectrum before anything. I tend to agree with him.
 
The idea is to present the compressor with the most well balanced EQ energy across the spectrum you can. You are only boosting areas that are lacking. Once right you don't boost above that. You also cut areas that are excessive.
 
Lately I have been mastering in Harrison Mixbus and using thier mastering multiband comp and it is very very good. It has a very interesting display as to how much gain reduction is taking place in each band. I find when I EQ first it is easy to get all the bands to gain reduce the same amount. Very important in order to maintain the EQ balance across the spectrum when using a multiband comp. But is does feature a low end replace boost type control for putting back some bottom end which can be sucked away if you are not careful with a multiband comp and this must obviously be after the compressor.
 
Watch out listening to before and after grabs of mastered tracks. Listen to the after versions at exactly the same volume as the before version and you will really hear how well the mastering is done. (ie remove the obvious louder is better syndrome) When you do this you reveal things like the snare sound losing all it's attack and snap. Poor mastering IMO. Good mastering keeps that all intact and delivers the volume at the same time.
 
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/08/03 18:31:37

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/03 20:07:47 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/08/04 22:21:31
I've always gone with using  HPF & LPF before the compressor, then use one of several EQ plugs for tonal shaping after the comp.

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brconflict
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/03 23:54:22 (permalink)
In my experience, there is no definite sequence. My answer is: it depends. Depends on the source mix and what the client wants out of it. If the mix is really punchy and almost overzealous on transients, I may compress before EQ (on my own mixes, this is typically the initial sequence). However, I may use an EQ before and after the compressor. Typically, I will use a surgical Linear-Phase EQ before compression to "fix" any real problems up front, assuming I cannot get the mixing engineer to re-tweak with my recommendations. Then I'll use a Mastering grade "glue" compression. If I feel the mix could use some character, warmth, punch, or sparkle/presence, I will sometimes add an emulated EQ after compression, if I deem fit. This echoes a bit of what Bristol_Jonesey states.
 
Many times, after I have tweaked with a specific sequence, I will drag and drop the plug-ins to change the sequence just to see if the compressor works better before or after the character or emulated EQ, but I will always leave any surgical fix EQs first in the sequence. Again, it depends on the source material, and how you need it to be Mastered, but it also may simply be your taste, which is why your clients come to you.
 
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Chregg
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/04 02:55:55 (permalink)
" I actually do it the other way around and EQ first. Especially if the track I am mastering has an excess of energy in the spectrum eg suppose there is a lot of low end present or too much 300 Hz present. With the compressor first it is going to act on those frequencies and that will effect how the compressor reacts to the rest of the spectrum. By EQ ing first you are actually correcting what you are feeding into the compressor and hence the compressor will react more evenly to the overall sound. So there is an argument against what has been said so far." This !!!! You want your mix as flat as possible, I view eq-ing when mastering as smoothing the edges like a final touch of sandpaper on wood, my cuts in mastering is no more than a dB or so, even if Im boosting round about 4-6 kHz to bring it a bit closer, its no more than .5 of a dB or so, eq-ing when mastering should be kinda minimal. Drastic cuts or boosts say to me that the mix isn't flat at all
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/04 10:37:29 (permalink)
I'm an EQ-firster, too.
 
Talking about tracks, though, because (contrary to popular trends) I don't normally use a compressor on the master bus.
 
Limiter always goes last.
 
The part of the OP's question that made me stop and think, though, was about where reverb goes on the master. Of course, many will reply that reverb has no place on the master bus, but that isn't a set-in-stone rule. On a sparse instrumental it can be just the ticket. My vote would be to place it after both EQ and compression.
 
Now, in what order to place the BBE Sonic Maximizer and Aphex Aural Exciter on the master? ;)
 


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cparmerlee
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/04 11:11:00 (permalink)
gswitz
perpetually puzzled by the whole MASTERING thing. 

 
Me too
 
gswitz
To me, mastering means magic applied to a single stereo wave file that makes it awesome. I don't think of mastering as the FX I throw on the master bus.



But I don't understand why that should be the case.  The master bus, by definition, has the full, completed mix -- the same file that people pick up and run into another tool.  Why is it necessary to break this into two separate processes?  Why can't the mastering simply be the final effects added on the mastering bus?
 
Unless I am missing something really important, it seems to me that is the ideal workflow.  I presume the only reason people DON'T do this is because there are better mastering tools in other programs and they are not available to plug into the SONAR master bus.  Is that correct?

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gswitz
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/04 14:57:40 (permalink)
cparmerlee, I agree that mastering could be done on the master bus. After all, it's just a stereo wav at that point.
 
I think I was trying to say that I imagine parameter automation as part of the mastering process for compressors and EQs. For example, CJ Masters tracks. He gets a stereo wav as input and then makes it sound better. What other things can he do outside of compression/expansion and EQ? I have no idea. And if those are the only tools he has, he must be automating the application of them.
 
Right? He can't just stick an EQ and compressor on and give a .5 bump here and 1 cut there... there must be more to it.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/04 16:06:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/08/04 22:20:48
Mastering is best done not at the time of mixing. After 8 hours of mixing your ears are shot and are in no state to be able to make the correct decisions for great mastering. Also it is great to listen to mix for a week or so before mastering. There will be many things you may pick up and want to change. That is the really important thing you are missing.
 
I do mastering a week or so later than mixing. It is like hearing the track fresh for the first time and it is best done in the morning after a good night's sleep too! Then you will be able to make the right decisions regarding EQ especially, the right amount of compression etc. Mastering engineers do not master your mix after a long period of hearing you mix do they so why should you. By leaving suitable time between the mixing and the mastering process you are moving a step closer to creating a similar result that a good mastering engineer would. I have read many times by famous engineers too that when they mastered straight after the mix to keep the record company happy due to time pressures they regretted it very much later on. What is the hurry!
 
And yes it is also good to import those tracks into another application such as Harrison Mixbus to do the mastering in. It has lovely track and buss EQ and the mastering EQ and multiband comp sound excellent. It can just give the track a slightly different sound from your regular DAW.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/08/04 18:05:48

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Anderton
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/04 19:27:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/08/04 22:20:36
I second Jeff's advice that separating the mixing and mastering process is a good approach. In days of yore, the person doing the mastering was almost always different from the person doing the mixing. This created a kind of "insurance" that there would be another set of objective ears before hitting duplication. Although taking a break between mixing and mastering isn't the same, it's more of a step in that direction.
 
Many clients want at least a semi-squashed sound, but that can change the mix and after hearing the master, some people want to go back and make changes. I've found that I can cut down on that by saying to people go ahead, put a compressor or limiter or EQ or whatever in the bus when you mix, but then 1) send me a mix with ALL the bus processors disabled, and 2) send me a copy of the mix with the processors so I can hear what you like.
 
Finally, I master a really wide range of material, running the gamut from country to techno to Christian to narration to restoring a cassette recording of a play from 1986. People often ask what my setup is for mastering but it seems like it's never the same twice. The various masters have different problems and unique characteristics. To relate this to your original question, I usually do EQ after compression (if compression is needed) but before limiting. However, for me most of the time the final limiter is more about catching transients than affecting the sound. I try to do all the "loudifying" before it hits that stage by techniques I've talked about before, e.g., redrawing selected waveforms in Sound Forge or WaveLab.
 
[Edit: and of course, you can't do that kind of surgical editing just by putting processors in the bus.]
 
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cparmerlee
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/04 19:34:18 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
Mastering is best done not at the time of mixing.



Right, but why not come back a week later and do the mastering task simply by adding processing on the master bus?  What technological benefit is there to disconnecting it from the rest of the process?
 
I realize that, conventionally speaking, "mastering" has been done for decades usually by a separate person in a separate place at a separate time using separate hardware.  I understand people being comfortable with that tradition.  But is there really any valid TECHNICAL reason for that to be the case today, assuming that the mastering tools are available as plug-ins that could go on the master bus?

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Anderton
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/04 19:39:42 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jbow 2013/08/04 20:35:23
And now I'm going to disagree with myself...sort of...
 
For some people, mastering is not about detailed surgery but simply enhancing a tune as much as possible using available tools. In that case, mixing through processors can pretty much accomplish that more limited goal. However, even in this case, it's a good idea to re-listen several days later with fresh ears. You can then re-open the project, do a few tweaks, and try again.
 
Another thought i'd to throw in is that mastring in today's era of "singles" is very different from mastering back in the days of albums. With albums, there was a whole element to mastering of sonic consistency as well as song order and flow. With vinyl, it was even more demanding because you couldn't have loud songs toward the end of a side due to inner groove distortion, and also, the mastering engineer had make decisions about tradeoffs. For example, if an artist handed the engineer a 50-minute album, did you lower the overall level in order to keep the bass intact, or cut some bass in order to be able to cut at a higher level? Or compress it more so levels were less of a concern? At least we don't have to worry about those issues any more when mastering for a digital delivery medium.
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Anderton
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/04 21:45:43 (permalink)
cparmerlee
Jeff Evans
Mastering is best done not at the time of mixing.



But is there really any valid TECHNICAL reason for that to be the case today, assuming that the mastering tools are available as plug-ins that could go on the master bus?




Another issue is that you can't assume that all the mastering tools you need are available as plug-ins that could go on the master bus. I mentioned waveform redrawing, but high-quality noise reduction is another "fix" that's usually not doable as a master bus plug-in. The analysis tools in DAWs are not as comprehensive as what's in most DAWs, so if you want to, for example, compare average loudness levels among different cuts it's not that easy.
 
But I often differentiate in my seminars between what I call "Mastering with a capital M" and "Mastering with a lower-case m." I define the former as something that's done for mission-critical projects where the bar is raised very high. But for posting a video on YouTube to promote your gig, while it might be nice to have a world-class mastering engineer make it sound as good as possible, you can probably do plenty yourself to enhance what you have.
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gswitz
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/04 22:40:38 (permalink)
Thanks for chiming in, Anderton!! I have bought both of your video advanced workshops and the paperback guitarists guide to sonar and I've enjoyed them. I refer to them from time to time.
 
I listen to my mixes again and again... I listen a week later... I put FX on the master bus. I don't have Sound Forge or Wave Lab. Sometimes, I will split a track around a single wave cycle and apply different FX to that very short clip to try to handle a unique transient (or maybe two or three) or just normalize them down 1-2 DB. But for the most part, I'm working hard to get basic EQ and Compression right. I don't like squashed sounds. My home stereo rocks and so does my car. I don't really care how it sounds on the bar owner's laptop.
 
I do regularly get people complaining about the amount of bass that can be heard when listening on cheap stereos. On some of these tracks the bass is so loud to me it pushes everything else in the mix down. Boomy would be the word... I hate that I have such a deep pocketful of tricks, but I get the same criticism repeatedly.
 
I would totally buy your book of recipes or lessons learned while mastering.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/04 22:49:25 (permalink)
In response to cparmerlees's point about is there any technical reason for doing mastering at a later time. Basically I would say not because after waiting a week I could go back to the masterbuss and start inserting mastering processors. It is more about the time between to give you time to get a fresh perspective again and listen with a slightly more accurate viewpoint. I would not be bringing up the full mix at this point though. I would have printed that back at the mix stage. Craig is right too about some things may change slightly when mild two buss compression is used over a final mix. I might print two versions of that mix one with and one without for extra options.
 
There is the workflow consideration. With me I could not master in my DAW (same time as mixing that is) because I don't do a full mix there. I send multiple stems to a digital mixer and bring things together there. The digital processors sound different and I have manual control too. There is EQ and dynamics on those stems too. I prefer the way things sound when mixed there. I know it should be the same but for me I like the way the digital mixer brings everything together. I have got external effects connected to that as well. So I have to print an unmastered mix anyway and work on it later. Slight two buss compression can be applied though and I like the way that sounds sometimes.
 
So one could stay all ITB but of course the moment you do delay the mastering you do have the options of sending mixes through outboard gear of any kind which may enhance your master. I believe you can get excellent mastering done both all ITB and also by using outboard too. One is not a lot better than the other at all, just different. As Craig also points out it sometimes is useful to open up a premastered mix (or partially mastered mix) in an editing program and do some pre mastering optimisation and pre-preparation that might really enhance the mastering later. There is often so much that can be done there before mastering even begins. When the prep is done well before mastering the mastering processors usually have to work less hard at their job making them all the more transparent.
 
These days too with the proliferation of great sounding analog devices in plugin form there could be a case where it is being done less and less (using analog outboard that is) at least with me anyway.
 
 
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/08/04 23:36:20

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cparmerlee
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/04 23:31:45 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
sometimes is useful to open up a premastered mix (or partially mastered mix) in an editing program and do some pre mastering optimisation and pre-preparation that might really enhance the mastering later.



I think this is what is confusing to me.  People talk as if there is a solid line between the mixing and mastering processes.  And of course, there once was.  When you finished your mix tape, you might ship it off to a company that would master it and press the vinyl. And I certainly understand (conceptually at least) that there was certain processing dictated by the limitations of the medium (e.g. vinyl LPs.) 
 
But to me, this notion of "mastering" as a distinct and separate process seems to be really blurry, here in 2013.  Let's say you throw on a multi-band compressor and limiter and all of a sudden the congas seem a touch too present in the mix.  If everything else sounds just right, I can't see trying to patch that with EQ.  Wouldn't it be better to simply go back and adjust the mix?
 
Once one is working on the polished product (i.e. the "mastered" output,) I'd expect the upstream changes to be very small.

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/04 23:53:06 (permalink)
If you are mastering well the mix should not change that much. The compression should not be changing the mix much at all, instead the mix just gets a little clamped down and assumes this slightly more professional sound level wise. It gets a little more attitude and it gets a little louder too. That is when you have got your compression working nicely for you rather than against you by not changing the mix too much.
 
Granted I have been surprised at times by how much something may move in a mix even with slight amounts of compression applied over the whole thing. Yes it is good to go back an open the mix up and make the change there. It is nice having a two buss compressor available at all times with the digital mixer. It is cool to have it set lightly, slowish attack to maintain transients and nice small amount of GR. When the makeup gain is set right there is no shift in level from the two buss compressor being on or not. It is a good mix check I find. I still print two versions though. And the version without the two buss comp on was set mix wise though with the two buss compression on. Sometimes I have found the one without the two buss printed sounded better inside Harrison Mixbus using it's mastering compressor instead. But I had that set the same way as the two buss was on the digital mixer. Mix stays exactly the same but nicer sounding compression now. Plus you can just change it slightly for the better usually by tweaking some of the parameters.
 
When I like the two buss compression it just adds this level of attitude or something and gets a little more forceful I find later I can get it really slamming in the final mastering stages. And yes when in that mode you may get a little shifting of things in the mix so it's nice to be able to put them back to normal right there and then. Sometimes I don't like what the two buss compression does at all on the final mix with the digital mixer and so I leave it off and just print the mix without any compression at all. I find on those ocassions I can set the mastering compression well later on and it doesn't change the mix.
 
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/08/05 00:04:51

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#20
sethmopod
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/04 23:55:49 (permalink)
cparmerlee - I don't mean for this to come out sounding wrong, but it sounds like you have never had the experience of working in a high-end mastering house.  The first time I ever went to have something mastered in a place like that, I was floored by what they were able to do.  I can't even touch it.  I'll 'master' things myself if it's something that's not meant for wide release, but I'm totally aware that what I'm doing isn't the real thing.
 
If you have something that you want to try and sell, bite the bullet and go get it mastered by a real mastering engineer who has a real mastering room.  It'll be worth every penny.
 
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Seth
#21
John
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/05 00:33:55 (permalink)
I think one reason many see it as a separate process is because the habit of bouncing down to save CPU made it so. Often in the past it was done because the added burden of the sort of plugins used to put too much strain on the CPU with the normal mixing plugins going on at the same time.
 
It became a normal thing to do. There may not be as much compelling reason to split it up except I do think its useful to work with just a stereo file as your source.
 
But I agree with the OP that there is no technical reason to do so. Also as has been pointed out a great mix doesn't need much intervention. 
 
I do think its very helpful for adding that final gloss though. I agree with those that one needs to step back a bit before doing more work on a song. So you can add the need to become fresh to the mix as a human demand.
 
One thing I am sure about is that fewer plugins can often be better in the end than throwing a bunch of plugins at a song.
 
 
 
 
 

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#22
dcumpian
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/05 08:39:08 (permalink)
I have a master FX chain that I load up when I import a mixdown. Each of these processes in the FX chain are enabled only as needed:
 
1) EQ - Precision EQ to correct or enhance some aspect of the mix. This includes HPF/LPF as needed.
2) Maxbass or RenBass to add bass harmonics. I also use it to tame bass and add thump when needed.
3) Aphex Aural Exciter. Just a little dab will do ya.
4) Linear Phase Multiband Compressor.
5) Final shaping Linear Phase EQ.
6) L1 or L2 (+ dither for conversion to 16bit)
 
I may swap any of the first 3 around as necessary, depending on the mix. It's taken me a looong time to get the process I use to produce a final mix "master" that I'm happy with and compares favorably to commercial mixes that I like. I also never try to "master" a mix on the same day I mixdown.
 
Regards,
Dan
 

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#23
cparmerlee
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/05 09:37:23 (permalink)
sethmopod
The first time I ever went to have something mastered in a place like that, I was floored by what they were able to do.  I can't even touch it.  I'll 'master' things myself if it's something that's not meant for wide release, but I'm totally aware that what I'm doing isn't the real thing.
 
If you have something that you want to try and sell, bite the bullet and go get it mastered by a real mastering engineer who has a real mastering room.  It'll be worth every penny.

Seth, I'm not disputing that.  But that isn't what I understood to be the premise of this thread (maybe I misunderstood the discussion point.)  I understood the premise to be the "mastering process" for people here on the forum who do that process themselves.  Even in that case, people seem to want to break it completely apart from the mixing process and to port the file from SONAR over to some other tool.  I was just wondering why that would be better than simply putting the same tools onto the master bus.
 

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#24
cparmerlee
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/05 09:43:45 (permalink)
dcumpian
Precision EQ
Maxbass or RenBass
Aphex Aural Exciter
Linear Phase Multiband Compressor.
Linear Phase EQ.

Do you find that you use these particular tools only at the mastering stage, or do you use some of them earlier during mixing as well?  I'm thinking in particular that the bass and HF enhancers could go on individual tracks.
 

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bitflipper
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/05 09:45:10 (permalink)
cparmerlee
 
...this notion of "mastering" as a distinct and separate process seems to be really blurry, here in 2013.  Let's say you throw on a multi-band compressor and limiter and all of a sudden the congas seem a touch too present in the mix.  If everything else sounds just right, I can't see trying to patch that with EQ.  Wouldn't it be better to simply go back and adjust the mix?
 
Once one is working on the polished product (i.e. the "mastered" output,) I'd expect the upstream changes to be very small.



Nicely summed up, cparmerlee. For the DIY producer who has no intention of sending his mixes out for mastering, either because he can't afford to or just because he wants the satisfaction of doing it all himself, there needn't be any distinction.
 
The fact is that mastering alters the mix. You'll almost always want to go back and tweak a mix after hearing the mastered version. As you note, those finalizing changes should be small. If they're not, then something in the mix needs refinement. Sometimes, mastering throws the desired balance off. Sometimes you find yourself using too-extreme EQ on the master. Sometimes the flattening buries key elements.
 
If you have the proper plugins, there is no reason you can't master in-place right in the original project. Well, there is one reason: if you're building a compilation for a CD, you might have issues trying to get all the songs to match volume. But this can be overcome.
 
I'll add a +1 to the notion of waiting a few days before mastering, though. A mistake I often make is jumping ahead out of impatience. After listening to the song a hundred times, every nuance is clear to me, so I might not notice that the mastering has sucked the life out of it.


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konradh
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/05 09:58:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/08/05 19:47:45
Something obvious—but maybe not to new engineers—is that master bus compression will change the mix a lot more in those songs with a wider dynamic range and instruments that come and go.  By this I mean, if you start with an acoustic guitar, then add voice, later add bass and drums, and finally build with sweetening, you may find that compression really alters the way your mix sounds.  After you add that lift and limit you may go, "Whoa!  What happened?"
 
If you have recorded a rock band that goes balls-to-the-wall from start to finish, the master bus compression is less likely to make your mix sound radically different.

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#27
brconflict
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/05 10:37:43 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/08/05 19:47:39
If you don't wish to have your mix "Mastered", the Master bus is fine for post-production tweaks. A great mix will cause the Mastering Engineer to not change a thing, but in the last 20 years, that's almost NEVER been the case. Unless the mixing engineer is mastering the mix on each channel, or mastering on the master bus, the Master will certainly change to make it louder and competitive. The only case I've found where the mix never changed in Mastering was in a classical recording, although I've seen where a Mastering engineer deliberately induced dynamics to a classical piece in the hopes of giving the dynamics even more impact. It didn't work. 
 
Point blank, go meet and sit in with a Mastering engineer if you're going to Master. And I don't mean one that has a home studio, or has only Mastered unsigned bands. I'm talking a major contract house, where every detail is scrutinized. See how they do it. See where they put the EQ, compressor, Stereo-imager, etc.
 
In my experience, there is no definite sequence of where the plug-ins go, other than 95% of the time, the limiter goes last. Yes, there is an argument to when NOT to put the limiter last, but it's rare you'd ever want to place it anywhere else. Something else to keep in mind, though: Each plug-in that boosts the signal at any point in the chain, should not clip the plug-in or piece of equipment that follows it. Doing so will render the Master smeared and distorted, even if you believe you can make it super loud. I learned this the hard way.
 
When you pre-Master on your mix buss, expect criticism from a Mastering engineer if you decide to have it mastered.

Brian
 
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#28
Danny Danzi
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/05 14:19:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/08/05 19:47:22
I.....nevermind, it would take me 4 pages to cover all the stuff quite a few of you are missing. No one wants to see me do that anyway. LOL! I will say this...as a silent mastering guy who has never bragged about any clients or tried to sell mastering services....it blows me away how wrong people are about this subject. What's even more disturbing are the guys that think they know what they are talking about posting about it with confidence. There are so many things that go on in a real mastering situation before you even get to the plugin/hardware stage, it would spin your head around if I started rattling things off to you. 
 
Quickly....and this is my opinion only. It is not meant to discredit, belittle or bring anyone down.
 
1. Anything that *usually* sounds drastically different than the original mix once mastered....was not mixed right. When someone sends a mix off to be mastered, they pressed the "Export" button for a reason. That reason is...they liked what they heard. What YOU as the mastering guy think sounds better isn't always the answer. The client usually has an agenda. So I'm never really blown away when I hear a before and after. To me, it makes the engineer that tracked/mixed it look like a fool. It tells you "don't go to that studio!" However, it DOES make the mastering engineer look good. This is why I do not provide before and after on my site. It makes me look good, but it makes the studio look terrible....and well, to me that's not fair. I've done those types of surgeries but only when the client can't give me a remix and all we have is what we have.
 
2. Pre-mastering: No one EVER makes a mention of this because they simply don't have a clue....unless you're in the industry. No one throws a song in an editor and starts running plugins until it sounds right. So let's stop right there. The material needs to be analyzed. Ends are trimmed to get rid of unwanted space because most engineers could give a rats @ss and leave you with 15 seconds of intro and outro dead space. 5 seconds is enough, I'll handle it from there. :) The material gets listened to closely to see if there are any artifacts such as hums, hiss, noise, rumbles, oscillation, rise or fall in audio, pops, clicks, guitar hum due to the mix engineer not doing his job during slip editing, punch in artifacts, drum sticks whacking things other than drums, engineer editing laziness, and anything else that should not be heard during play back. Everything is logged and written down in one listen. This forms your pre-mastering work order.
 
3. Along with what I just told you, when that stuff is all done, you can move on to the next phase of the pre-master. What you did above took about an hour. Now you get a fresh start and remove any DC offsets so you are starting fresh. From here, we analyze and remove any rogue peaks we find in the audio. We do this because the material will only be as loud as its loudest peak no matter how much you use a limiter. Remember, the limiter will threshold itself to that peak. So leaving loads of peaks will always stop your material from being as loud as it can be. You don't want to use a limiter to control the peaks for this because it will destroy your attack on your snare drum everytime. Create a mix with a snappy snare and try to remove the peaks by limiting. Then, try it by hand manually....huge difference for the better every time, but unfortunately, incredibly time consuming to where if you do it once, you'll probably never do it again or you'll hand it off to a dope like me that doesn't mind doing it.
 
After we take care of all those peaks (usually snare drum or kick drum transients because the mix engineer didn't know how to control them) we level the audio by ear using automation. This preserves dynamics and makes things gradual. This also allows your compression and limiting to work as it should without smearing the stereo field or creating artifacts. Keep in mind, all the stuff I've mentioned so far above, is NEVER and I repeat NEVER seen if the project comes in to you from a major label or an engineer that has a clue.
 
Have you noticed we haven't even started the mastering procedure yet? Does everyone do things this way? No, but by rights they should and I know big name guys that do. Why do I know this? By talking to them as well as seeing the numbers they achieve when you look up the stats on the audio they master. You don't get those numbers that consistent by feeding stuff into Ozone. You work the material the right way....or....you're so rich you have your own programs that do it based on your old work habits that are not for sale. You'd be surprised at the stuff they have that they DON'T share with you. A trip to Katz studio will show you that, although he has started to sell his personal contraptions.
 
FX chains: For what it's worth, I'm eq first as well and prefer all ITB as it has proven itself worthy enough for me to get rid of my outboard gear. You eq to get the song right...then compress to control the little peaks and valleys you may have just created. As far as the rest of my chain, it varies from job to job. The one thing I rarely do is add reverb to a mix during mastering unless the material is crying for it. I've done it with success, but it's not something I agree with or feel the need to do unless absolutely necessary. But rest assured, at any given time, there are anywhere from 9-11 plugs in my chain during a mastering procedure. Sometimes I use them all, other times I do not. The reason for the amount is several eq options, so they add up quickly.
 
After all this is done....there's a post mastering procedure....oh joy! This finalizes everything just right, converts sample rates, dithers, removes any final residing DC offsets and earns my DZL stamp of approval. :) There's more, but you get the idea.
 
Stem mixes: Quite a few mastering guys master using stem mixes. This gives the ME way more control and allows he/she to paint a much better picture. You'd be surprised at how often an ME is NOT mastering using a stereo audio track. It depends on the situation as well as who the producer is in a big time situation. Most of the hobby guys will just provide a stereo track...which is fine. But when you find out you have problem areas, then you either have to fix the mix or send stems. This is why all my clients are screened beforehand. Not screened to the point of declining (well sort of but not due to "you suck") to the point of being honest. 
 
It stops me from polishing turds and stops me from taking money from them when mastering will not make a major difference in their audio. The better you mix the song on your end, the better the master will turn out. I even help people for no additional cost as long as they let me master it. You learn something during the process and you get back the best material possible that is not doctored up, fake or synthetic....it's you being you. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I took on a job that was so badly mixed I'd be taking money "for the sake of" just to make it 2% better if that. Yet, I see this happen every day because other mastering guys need to eat. Uggh. What a world we live in. :( I'd get another job before I'd take someone's money "for the sake of being in business".
 
Mastering today vs. mastering of yesterday is something only a pro that has been on both sides could answer in my opinion. I believe it would be different procedure wise if we were still going to vinyl, but I have no clue and am not embarrassed to say that. I do know this...I'd be willing to bet way more editing is done TODAY than when they mastered years ago. I don't know how they dealt with pops, clicks, noises etc. But this takes up quite a bit of my time for some clients because of how they have misused or misunderstood the tools that were given to us/them. Not every project is a project done on a major label, so I'm sure they had to deal with this too. There are so many things today that contribute to noise and people totally not understanding things that they are literally destroying the audio before it gets to the ME. This is something that was unheard of in the past.
 
Whatever the case, the principal *should* be the same for most situations. The major difference is volume and the amount of compression, distortion and limiting entering into the scheme of things. They would have had a mess on their hands back in the day dealing with this volume and excessive compression/limiting/coloration stuff the way things are today.
 
Ok, not quite 4 pages...but long enough for some of you curious about this to get an idea. :) Back into my hole I go. :)
 
-Danny

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#29
brconflict
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Re: Mastering 2013/08/05 14:56:15 (permalink)
"What's even more disturbing are the guys that think they know what they are talking about posting about it with confidence."
 
Danny, you speak quite confidently, although I'm not going to say you don't know what you're talking about. If you're referring to my posts, which I sense you do include to some degree, I gathered some knowledge from those who are in the Mastering business, two of the sources of my knowledge are regarded as two of the most highly regarded ME's in the industry (Calbi and Ludwig). I also spend lots of time reading interviews from the big ME's when and wherever I can. While I don't disagree with much of what you've posted, especially when it comes to specific processes and such, my attempt to explain what I know was certainly abridged and, for the same reasons you mentioned, to not post a 4-page blog.
 
What I don't think I see eye-to-eye with you about is what I mentioned about the Master sounding different from the mix. It doesn't mean that the mids are going to be hot and bass missing, as a horrendous example, but rather that when you compare a professional master (especially ones competing in loudness wars). You should have been exposed to clients that bring you a mix and want it to compete in volume. From that, you know you simply cannot increase the volume with no tweaking and attain the loudness the clients want, right? That's what I mean by different. There's obvious dynamics manipulations and processing that is unavoidable. Take Rush's Vapor Trails, one mix/master that the band decided to go back and re-do just recently. At the time, it was probably the loudest and most smashed up mix on the market, but it was done by Masterdisk, I believe (Howie). I'm sure he wasn't happy to receive such a cold response to killing dynamics like that, but it was what he was asked to do even as a pro. The challenge is to make it loud without ruining the mix, or "hurting" it, if at all possible. Hope that helps explain a little of what I meant. 
 
Surely nobody disagrees with "Do the least amount of damage as possible". 

Brian
 
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