Sir Les
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 07:35:29
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Sonar is stable when tracking here and now, with midi and recording audio at once,onto many tracks at once...bravo!....I would not change a thing in that...
Hope the little buggy things get ironed out, that people found...and continue to find.
As for score...?..
A feature that can be found in score software of differing parties....
All that work and efforts to get a product so finely coded....cannot merge into sonar?....Must be a way soon?...or...imagination and methods to solve for X...by the user...
Well, I hope Tom keeps his Sonar prog, and adds more DAWs, and scoring software, to his tool belt, and a second laptop, to slave sync to the other...might help, in more ways than one, for the time being?.
Cheers!
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Kylotan
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 07:48:58
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Anderton
The reason Cakewalk structured updates the way they did is you can update quarterly if you like. Or if you want to be on the bleeding edge, you can update every month...or update one month if there's a feature you really like, then not do anything for another six months. Or jump off for a year and come back in again later.
The problem is, each time there's a release you don't know whether it's stable or not. So you can wait, check the forums, and see whether it's safe to upgrade, but that's time-consuming, and you're basically doing extra work just to keep your DAW in the sweet spot between being free of bugs and having all the features and content you paid for. One alternative would be for Cakewalk to have 2 parallel branches, a Stable and Experimental. This works well for some software and gives customers a better expectation of what they're getting.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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pwalpwal
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 09:37:14
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is it possible to not upgrade for say 6 months, and then pick a release from those 6 months to upgrade to? i.e., say i currently have release "B" installed, can I upgrade to "E" or would i have to upgrade to the latest (H?) and then "rollback" to E?
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BobF
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 10:08:51
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pwalpwal
is it possible to not upgrade for say 6 months, and then pick a release from those 6 months to upgrade to? i.e., say i currently have release "B" installed, can I upgrade to "E" or would i have to upgrade to the latest (H?) and then "rollback" to E?
Check your store account and see which versions are available for download.
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Anderton
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 10:26:22
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Kylotan
Anderton
The reason Cakewalk structured updates the way they did is you can update quarterly if you like. Or if you want to be on the bleeding edge, you can update every month...or update one month if there's a feature you really like, then not do anything for another six months. Or jump off for a year and come back in again later.
The problem is, each time there's a release you don't know whether it's stable or not. I'm not sure "stable" is the correct term. I think it's more a question of a new feature having a bug, which is typically fixed the next month. I don't recall any update which resulted in crashing or freezing for a large number of users. The one bug I do remember that really mattered to some people was when the control bar's custom module was stuck to the far right, which was a new bug to an existing feature. But I wouldn't consider that as affecting stability, it was fixed the next month, and if you found it really problematic, you could roll back to the previous update for 30 days. Bugs are never welcome, but if there's one that's introduced with a new feature, you can pretty much just wait a month and ignore whatever new feature was added. As you can imagine I have to keep up to date, but have not encountered a situation where updating caused the program to become less stable. In fact with the various bug fixes in each version, SONAR has generally become more stable with each update. I'm willing to trade off a whole bunch of bug fixes for the possibility that a few were introduced in a new feature, although I recognize not everyone will agree.
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pwalpwal
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 10:33:36
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to be fair, there have been two (?) mid-release hotfix patches so far, implying that those particular scheduled monthly updates weren't "quite right"...
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Anderton
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 10:43:37
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pwalpwal
to be fair, there have been two (?) mid-release hotfix patches so far, implying that those particular scheduled monthly updates weren't "quite right"...
Yes, no question about it, bugs have been introduced with new features. But that's the case whether all the updates are batched up and released in a year, or released one at a time. The difference here is that, as you've noted, they can be fixed more quickly. (Compare the progression of bug fixes and their timing with X3 to those since SONAR 2015 was introduced.) Probably the most severe example was when upsampling caused issues if tempo changes were present. It was addressed with a hotfix within a couple weeks, so if you just stayed on the previous release, or didn't use upsampling, you didn't have problems.
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pwalpwal
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 10:51:20
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sure, but if they'd been "batched up" for a yearly release, the bugs showing up monthly surely would have been found "in house" before users got/discovered them? characters like "ö" in the new start screen for example (goodness, that one's a classic "schoolboy error"!)
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Anderton
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 10:59:43
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pwalpwal
sure, but if they'd been "batched up" for a yearly release, the bugs showing up monthly surely would have been found "in house" before users got/discovered them?
Not necessarily - check out the bug fixes for X3. I agree if the start screen had been developed early in a dev cycle and sitting around for six months, the error you mention probably would have been caught. But if it had been developed in the month before the release, you could have the same situation you have here.
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Beepster
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 11:05:45
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☄ Helpfulby pwalpwal 2015/09/06 17:07:39
pwalpwal
is it possible to not upgrade for say 6 months, and then pick a release from those 6 months to upgrade to? i.e., say i currently have release "B" installed, can I upgrade to "E" or would i have to upgrade to the latest (H?) and then "rollback" to E?
Yes. This was something that was really bugging me being the laggard I am (I was perpetually missing the cut off before the new releases came out). Previous if you had not downloaded (or installed) a version and a new version came out in the meantime you were out of luck. I posted a thread asking this be corrected and apparently it had been bugging one of the Bakers as well (I forget which one actually came into the thread... Ryan maybe?). He announced they were fixing it and I think within a few days we had a new area that provides download links for ALL releases that have come out during a paid subscription period. It's awesome and has made me an extremely happy Beep. I think you click on the main Sonar download links thingie then there is an extra button that exposes previous releases by version/date. Something like that (I've only used it once but it was immediately useful to me).
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Doktor Avalanche 
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 12:22:03
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Craig please check my post: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3282802 What you are writing does make some sense, but what you are dealing here is perceptions... Many people I'm sure do not participate in this forum and just use the product, Ta.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/09/06 12:30:38
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Anderton
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 13:42:35
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I too have issues with the Start Screen. However, I have several specific ideas on how to improve it (aside from bug fixes), which I've sent to the Bakers. Of course I represent a "universe of one" but I do think if these suggestions were implemented, the Start Screen would be more useful.
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BobF
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 13:48:39
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Anderton
I too have issues with the Start Screen. However, I have several specific ideas on how to improve it (aside from bug fixes), which I've sent to the Bakers. Of course I represent a "universe of one" but I do think if these suggestions were implemented, the Start Screen would be more useful.
I agree Craig. I've made my suggestions as well. I'm warming up to it. Thing is, if it's just not somebody's cup of tea, it can be disabled.
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ampfixer
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 14:15:59
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I've doubled down on Sonar so I'm not leaving. There will be a huge number (relatively speaking) of folks that will have their annual membership end in January 2016. I expect that some cool stuff will be delivered in late December to encourage people to re-up.
The only change I'm going to make is to drop down one level from Platinum. If we stack up the releases this year there were few that provided exclusive stuff for Platinum users. What there was, was pretty cool, but I STILL need Panup and the Sonar mods to really enjoy the interface. I bought Notion 5 to take care of the few times people ask for scoring tools. I would also love to buy a good Sonar book, but the new model has made that impractical, as seen by the lack of output from Scott Garrigus. I simply can't learn from a pc screen. 4 more updates to go but I feel I got good value for my money.
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Beepster
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 14:32:02
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/09/06 23:01:38
BobF
Anderton
I too have issues with the Start Screen. However, I have several specific ideas on how to improve it (aside from bug fixes), which I've sent to the Bakers. Of course I represent a "universe of one" but I do think if these suggestions were implemented, the Start Screen would be more useful.
I agree Craig. I've made my suggestions as well. I'm warming up to it. Thing is, if it's just not somebody's cup of tea, it can be disabled.
The problem is that some of us made/make heavy use of the OLD startscreen... which AFAIK no longer exists in Hopkinton. Based on some of the info I've gotten from Baker's and other users the new start screen is something that I would like to use EXCEPT for some specific issues that are deal breakers for me (not for Sonar but for the Start screen). At this moment it's fine because there is nothing in Hopkinton that I need or am dying to try. I can happily keep working on the version I'm on. People have been moaning about the lack of goodies in this past release but really the Bakers have been busting their butts this past year and august is generally accepted as vacation season. I also never recalled any specific promise that we would get a mountain of new stuff every month or even a monthly schedule. That seems to have been some kind of self imposed challenge by the Bakers and they've certainly MORE than met it (seriously I thought we'd get more trickle style updates like Hopkinton as opposed to the flood of new things and I commend the Bakers for their enthusiasm and dedication to the new system). Whatever... going off topic. I have been considering how to broach this in a non inflammatory way and perhaps seeing what the Baker's are going to do in regards to the new startscreen before posting a thread detailing my concerns but for now the ONE thing I would like to see is an option for a "Classic" startscreen included in the next update... at least until they can thoughtfully work through the issues people are having with the new one. My preference is to have the classic option available for... well forever but I realize time marches on. For now the ONLY things I want to see happen with the new startscreen before I will enable it are... 1) An option to COMPLETELY disable the quicktips and newsfeed independently of the startscreen. So essentially I want to use the startscreen but have that "phone home" element turned off until I turn it on. Ideally it would ONLY phone home when I press a convenient button so I get that info at times of my choosing and my system isn't wasting time/resources trying to retrieve it every time I open Sonar (which is at least a dozen times a day). I want it COMPLETELY silent, performing NO functions or actions in the fore or background... I want it doing NOTHING until I click a button that allows the program to reach out, connect and give me whatever tips and news have piled up since the last time I performed that function. I will use it. I just want to CHOOSE when it happens manually. 2) Instead of big snapshot icons an option to have a "List" style menu. 99% of the time I don't need to see what my project looked like when I last saved it. I know from the titles and would rather see a list that has MORE of those titles than a smalle list of projects in icon form. Since I use Save As to version my projects about a half dozen times a day (at least) the icon thing is pretty much useless to me for recent projects. Once I start using it I'm sure I'll have other suggestions but those are the two things that I know about the new startscreen that will make me IMMEDIATELY disable it as soon as I update to any new version from this point forward. For now just an option to keep the old startscreen until this new one gets tweaked based on user input would be brilliant. I would hope at least that will happen before the track to track routing gets introduced which IS a feature I will want to check out and use. I have full faith the Bakers have been watching and will tweak all this for us so this is totally not a freakout or diss. I sincerely hope they are all taking a well deserved summer vacation to spend with their friends and family after an epic year of epicness. I could not be happier to be a Sonar user at this point in time. Cheers.
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kitekrazy1
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 15:51:40
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ampfixer
I've doubled down on Sonar so I'm not leaving. There will be a huge number (relatively speaking) of folks that will have their annual membership end in January 2016. I expect that some cool stuff will be delivered in late December to encourage people to re-up.
The only change I'm going to make is to drop down one level from Platinum. If we stack up the releases this year there were few that provided exclusive stuff for Platinum users. What there was, was pretty cool, but I STILL need Panup and the Sonar mods to really enjoy the interface. I bought Notion 5 to take care of the few times people ask for scoring tools. I would also love to buy a good Sonar book, but the new model has made that impractical, as seen by the lack of output from Scott Garrigus. I simply can't learn from a pc screen. 4 more updates to go but I feel I got good value for my money.
I sort of left. X3 was suppose to be my last version or was it 8.5? I don't remember. I still upgrade Sonar.
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DRanck
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 19:27:35
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sure, but if they'd been "batched up" for a yearly release, the bugs showing up monthly surely would have been found "in house" before users got/discovered them? I've worked in software development for 25 years and small releases are much easier to handle in regards to testing. When they test a monthly release, they have a relatively small number of things to test. A major release requires a correspondingly major testing effort in conjunction with full regression testing. I think the Bakers have been doing an admirable job of providing a balance of fixes, features and quality.
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Anderton
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 20:16:52
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Beepster
The problem is that some of us made/make heavy use of the OLD startscreen... which AFAIK no longer exists in Hopkinton. In a way...it does, if you use the File menu. - Click on File to see the equivalent of "Recent Projects."
- Choose File > Open to see the equivalent of "Existing Projects."
- Choose File > New to see what is IMHO a great way to start a new project that was introduced in Gloucester, but it's also a very convenient way to choose a template, and even select a default template.
Here's the way I see the Start Screen: Going in the right direction, but only got halfway there. Right now I think it tries to make things easier for beginners at the expense of those who are more experienced in the program. As a result, I find using the File menu to be faster and more efficient. However, I definitely think that with a few tweaks, the Start Screen could be a very helpful way to consolidate the things you need to do when you first open SONAR. Meanwhile, I must say the next update looks pretty significant...
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John T
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 21:13:53
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Yeah, agreed. I like the new start screen, but without wishing to be rude, it feels a bit more version 0.9 than version 1.0 right now. I only say this because it stands in contrast to the last six months or so. Drum Replacer, for example, came to us very fully realised from day one, and then got updates the very next month. That kind of thing is amazing. Start screen isn't a nightmare, or anything, but it's not been delivered to that standard. That gripe aside, I do like the basic design of the thing, and Cakewalk have earned my trust enough to roll with it for the time being. For my money, the option to roll back and / or delay updating makes these things mostly a non-issue. It will only matter if a bad change happens and doesn't get fixed for a long time. Thus far, that's not been how it's gone.
post edited by John T - 2015/09/06 21:24:27
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BRuys
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/06 22:06:15
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Anderton
RD9
I suggested quarterly updates might be more convenient for most users.
The reason Cakewalk structured updates the way they did is you can update quarterly if you like. Or if you want to be on the bleeding edge, you can update every month...or update one month if there's a feature you really like, then not do anything for another six months. Or jump off for a year and come back in again later.
And this is why I just don't understand the folks complaining of too many changes. I certainly do not upgrade every time and have long periods of stability and familiarity on a version. If I see nothing in a new release that I need or want, I stick with the version I have. And I certainly don't upgrade if a multitude of users find problems within a few days of release. If you are upset about too many changes, upgrade only when you want/need to. And even if you do upgrade and don't like the change, roll back. If you are not liking the pace of change, remember, you are the person clicking the upgrade button. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. Sheesh! Of all the things to complain about, too much choice is not one of them in my book.
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Adq
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/07 00:10:40
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ampfixer
I've doubled down on Sonar so I'm not leaving. There will be a huge number (relatively speaking) of folks that will have their annual membership end in January 2016. I expect that some cool stuff will be delivered in late December to encourage people to re-up.
More likely in February. Or it will be introduced in December, but will not be fully working until February. And you won't be able to extend subscription for a month to take it, only for the whole year.
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pwalpwal
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/07 07:11:09
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DRanck
sure, but if they'd been "batched up" for a yearly release, the bugs showing up monthly surely would have been found "in house" before users got/discovered them?
I've worked in software development for 25 years and small releases are much easier to handle in regards to testing. When they test a monthly release, they have a relatively small number of things to test. A major release requires a correspondingly major testing effort in conjunction with full regression testing.
sure, but has there been a new feature yet that wasn't a bit buggy? which kind of implies that the new easier-to-handle internal testing still needs some love :-)
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/07 07:22:36
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DRanck
sure, but if they'd been "batched up" for a yearly release, the bugs showing up monthly surely would have been found "in house" before users got/discovered them?
I've worked in software development for 25 years and small releases are much easier to handle in regards to testing. When they test a monthly release, they have a relatively small number of things to test. A major release requires a correspondingly major testing effort in conjunction with full regression testing.
pwalpwal
sure, but has there been a new feature yet that wasn't a bit buggy? which kind of implies that the new easier-to-handle internal testing still needs some love :-)
Bit buggy I can handle, and it's understandable, regression fixes will come as it's just a few fixes. A lot buggy nope. The start screen is a lot buggy (almost of the lines of Rapture Pro) and worse may take a while to patch up. Should never have been released in that state, yup we can disable it (thank gawd) but it should not have gone out that way in the first place, bad for rep. Cheers..
Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
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John
Forum Host
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/07 08:00:17
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I really didn't want to get into this thread but I am compelled because it has been stated that CW's updates are buggy. I do not believe that to be true.
Lets list what CW has released
VocalSync
REmatrix Solo
The New Control Bar Somewhat buggy but not a show stopper
Mix Recall
Pattern Tool
Onscreen Virtual Controller
Output Routing Recall
Audio Import/Export Improvements
VocalSync - Noise Filter
New MIDI Engine
Better Drum Maps
Mix Recall
Synth Rack Control
Drum Replacer
Improved ARA Support
Plug-In Upsampling
Windows 10 Compatibility
Relative Video Path
Start Screen
I don't know why its so easy to toss out the word buggy when to my memory only one feature was truly buggy and even that was minor.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/07 08:24:25
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John
I really didn't want to get into this thread but I am compelled because it has been stated that CW's updates are buggy. I do not believe that to be true.
Lets list what CW has released
VocalSync
REmatrix Solo
The New Control Bar Somewhat buggy but not a show stopper
Mix Recall
Pattern Tool
Onscreen Virtual Controller
Output Routing Recall
Audio Import/Export Improvements
VocalSync - Noise Filter
New MIDI Engine
Better Drum Maps
Mix Recall
Synth Rack Control
Drum Replacer
Improved ARA Support
Plug-In Upsampling
Windows 10 Compatibility
Relative Video Path
Start Screen
I don't know why its so easy to toss out the word buggy when to my memory only one feature was truly buggy and even that was minor.
I think it's unhelpful to exaggerate here, nobody has said everything Cakewalk does is buggy. Let's not talk about Rapture Pro/Z3TA+2/Concrete Limiter. There are issues with CCC displaying the latest update upon load (has to be manually triggered in settings, even outside polling scope - for some they have to log out/log in again). All updates you list above have had mostly understandable regression bugs which got fixed. Drum maps though had a few obvious issues that got through the net, however it was fixed quickly so all was fine and no doubt part of growing pains... And that's the point... getting regression issues quickly fixed ... which Cakewalk having been doing pretty well so far. With start screen though (as I've stated earlier). * No UTF support (unusable for foreign language characters). * Internet slows startup (speed it up by blocking it in your firewall). * Displays (hangs around) after you opens a project. * Recent files shows a different order to the previous functionality. * Wondering if lots of project files slows startup (no lazy loading) - TBC (so ignore this until confirmed). This is a lot buggy IMHO and it should not have been released in this state. It may not have been such a big deal if this wasn't the only feature for the recent release, and yes we can at least switch it off, so I'll dust myself down and move on. Hopefully regression bugs will be fixed next month, and hopefully not too many people will download the demo this month either (as this will be the first thing they see). (EDITED FOR TYPO's SORRY)
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/09/07 08:46:22
Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
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John
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/07 08:41:24
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I don't see those bugs in the new start screen. N
Nor am I exaggerating. Posters are saying the releases are buggy. That is untrue. I base this one the following statement. "sure, but has there been a new feature yet that wasn't a bit buggy? which kind of implies that the new easier-to-handle internal testing still needs some love :-)"
A bit buggy is buggy. Its like saying a bit pregnant.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/07 08:48:00
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John
Nor am I exaggerating. Posters are saying the releases are buggy. That is untrue. I base this one the following statement. "sure, but has there been a new feature yet that wasn't a bit buggy? which kind of implies that the new easier-to-handle internal testing still needs some love :-)"
A bit buggy is buggy. Its like saying a bit pregnant.
But he didn't say buggy did he? He said "a bit buggy". All new code is generally a "bit buggy". I'd argue in most cases it was understandable and dealt with reasonably in the end. John
I don't see those bugs in the new start screen.
Clearly and neither does Schrodinger, there have however been several posts and threads.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/09/07 09:01:50
Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
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jatoth
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/07 10:09:49
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I think the monthly push for "new" is starting to wear a little thin.
Seriously? Who requested a new start screen? Also, the list of "fixes" was a bit lacking in this release.
Maybe too many bakers were off on vacation the last month or two to get any meaningful work done.
Lets hope the next couple of months are better.
John X3e Producer, Sonar Platinum, Sweetwater CreationStation i5 3.1gHz, 12 GB RAM, 500GB SSD OS drive, 1TB SSD audio drive, 1TB archive/misc drive, dual 22" monitors, Windows 7x64, SaffirePro40 (firewire), MOTU MIDI Express XT, Behringer BCF2000, dbx 586, Samson Servo 120a, Yamaha HS80M, Auratone 5c Cubes, Sennheiser HD650, Sony MDR 7509HD, Sony MDR 7506, Kurzweil K2500XS, Roland XP-30, Proteus 2000.
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pwalpwal
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/07 10:32:48
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blimey... i love this forum 
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michael diemer
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Re: Moving On
2015/09/07 12:51:50
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All of which continues to make me glad I stayed with 8.5.3.
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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