jamesg1213
(Pedro on this part) ... because rock musicians rarely have had a "director" to help them improve their presentation and work. That's not to say that everyone can handle it, but rock music, in general, has become such an egotistical art, that it is really difficult to let that go, so you can learn something else.
 
... (James) the part about the producers.
 

 
I wonder if a lot of people are using their Sonar, or DAW's ... for a way to have a "producer".
 
There is a good side to that ... a ballerina can use a mirror to see that her moves are smooth or correct, or show what she thinks she wants to show.
 
That works really good for an individual situation, but it is not likely to look as good in a group situation, when your relationship to the other folks are a bit more important.
 
The totality of it all, regardless of what you think is right or wrong, or better, will NEVER even come close to the audience's reaction and understanding of it all anyway ... regardless of what you think and do and say!
 
In the end, the only thing that a producer and you and I can do .. is help the folks "playing", or "acting", or doing anything else, like playing an instrument, in such a way ... that helps the piece of music you are talking about sound so much better and important, that it helps other people notice it ... and helps it get around better and faster because of those special moments that most people go ... "far out" ... but they do not really know why, or how! You might not the how ... but the why? ... sometimes yes, sometimes not, but again, the audience is not "you"!
 
This is the important part of listening to a producer ... not the "hits" ... go check out that Tom Dowd DVD ... and you will find that there is more there to the music, or the art, than you and I will ever know or understand.
 
The real question is ... how much of it do you really want to try and find, or see! Because it is all out there, right in front of you, if you only can point to it and locate it ... think of it as Casper the friendly ghost! Always there!

starise
I see your points here. I guess I aspire to be more like those guys who seem to have a little something else when it comes to picking up music and playing it with no supervision and very little practice.

 
Not sure that there is a lot of help I can give you here. This is easy and at the same time hard.
 
The guy that does the Perfect Pitch series of lectures thinks that this can be done better and faster, because you can disseminate what is being done faster, thus you can "reply/react" to things faster.
 
Practice is a funny thing, and in general, it is only as good as your concentration. We actually had a study on this, with actor's lines, and how long it takes you to learn them. And the only thing I can tell you is that the better the concentration -- less interruptions, noise, people, whatever -- the faster you can learn these things.
 
Rehearsing in a band situation is rarely a "focused" effort. I say that because I have seen more people try to match up the guitar, or the drummer, and the guitar and bass ... are not quite there ... and it might have less to do with the drum beat ... than it does with the guitar sliding from one note to the net one ... that is caught between the drumstix, and the bass note is not the right one for that slide!
 
Dumb things ... that on paper are fine, but in reality ... don't quite come off the way you want.
 
Focusing this is hard ... and sometimes you really need an external person (like the producer)  ... to help clarify and identify what we might or might not be able to do here.
 
There are two schools of thought here ... the free form let it all hangout, or you can sit there and figure it out on a DAW. I sincerely doubt that you can "script" what Bonzo, or Moonzie, or Neumeier will do at any time ... (even though 2 are long gone from us) ... and the freshness that the free form style can give you is priceless ... and the DAW has no personality per se, that can do something like that ... EVER ... thus, and our ideas of "perfecting" something get in the way ... of the music's own liveliness.
 
Most professional musicians that can pick things up that quick, as you mention, are really good at sight reading and response ... and it is easy to say, at that point, there there is no intuition necessary, and I am not sure that is true ... it's like saying that the sequence of notes is sounding right, but nothing else does, and the whole thing is colder than ... yeah ... and it doesn't work. Sometimes, you sink into the notes and scales ... other times you have to let those go ... but you can not "lose" your spot ... which is the most important part of it all.
 
I had an acting exercise that taught both actors to pick each other up in their thinking, which led to them being able to correctly guess each other's line (random too!) intuitively. If you can do that musically, you will never worry about the notes, and you will ALWAYS adjust the timing correctly to match that second in time ... and the notes MIGHT, or MIGHT NOT be exactly what is on the script ... but the detail is so MINOR in the largest scope of things that only you can notice it, and your friends, can notice ... most of us in the audience? Not a clue!
 
I believe -- <<-- that it takes a combination of feeling for the "moment" to make any music special. Clinical music, is not my style and seeing the majority of classical music concerts for me is like watching the pistons on your car move up and down! BORING! You can not add "excitement" to something that doesn't have it, without killing it ... if you unplug one cylinder of 6 or 8, you will lose power, and if you keep it long enough like that probably damage the engine some!
 
Can you learn this "inner" thing?
 
Everyone can!
 
But it depends on the person and how much you dedicate yourself to it. Some people can do this in ... snapp ... done ... others it will take years to get it. In essence the more you question, the less you want to know ... since it is almost an experiential thing ... that defines how good you are ... not how many notes you add or subtract ... and this is the part that makes it too clinical and that is what the lounge lizard jazz styles in America are all exactly about! I like to say ... it's not about the notes ... it's about how you feel that second in time ... !!! It's the same in film and stage ... your idea, or thoughts have absolutely nothing on that moment in time ... and it becomes a matter of how much, and how good you want to concentrate on these things.
 
Ask Jon McLaughlin, sometime about his methods of learning and concentrating ... and then go see some of his live performances with foreign musicians and his uncanny timing and such ... he might (MIGHT) be thinking about notes, but if he did so, he would not be paying attention to those other tablas and musicians doing their thing. It's beautiful to watch, but very hard to teach ... because you are more centered on the notes and scales, than you are on the feeling itself ... and you have to concentrate on the feeling a lot more than you do the notes ... and I guarantee you that Jon would agree.  After all ... for you ... the notes are easy ... always and ever!

There seems to be a passel of ol musicians that don't realize that the holes are as important as the notes. 

I learned early on in Nashburg that every session was playtime and we were putting together a puzzle and I was only one piece of that puzzle and if I didn't automatically know when or where I went in the puzzle I wouldn't be invited back to playtime again.  Plus one of my mentors told me at an early age something that still serves me in good stead today...and not only in music..."if you don't know it or can't hear it, lay out":-)

Hi, 

The piece I was thinking about btw, was Jon McL's Remember Shakti: Ma No Pa ...

UbiquitousBubba


Hitting strings, keys, skins, etc. at random does not make music. 

Oh fine.  NOW you tell me!  Just think of all the money I could have saved on all of that gear!!! 

Hi,

... When you play with a musician who listens to the rest of the band and adapts to play something that fits the band and the song, you've got something very special...

And I think that this is what the gentlman was looking for ... some ideas on how to get there!

The listening, to me is the hardest part to learn ... SPECIALLY, when you are listening to yourself ... and can not pay enough attention to the other person!  It's the same thing on stage and film ... to the point where we can usually ask ... who you saying that to? Or I could ask you ... who are you playing that for? ...

The part that is strange, is people thinking that it is a "philosophy" to my mind's eye ... because there is no "philosophy" and it is nothing but a moment in time that we're trying to peg down with notes ... and a minute later it's different and an hour later you are doing something different. I tend to look at this as a "dream" or "story" ... not a philosophy. With music being one of the most important elements in it!  Your idea of today will be slightly different tomorrow and the day after ... it's an ever involved process for you!

But this is quite different if we're talking about your band doing top ten on the Red Lion circuit! Or the LA club circuit, or the SF club scircuit, or the NY club circuit ... because if you are not better than most, feeling wise or response wise ... you simply will not be there with anyone for very long!

As for kids ... when your sense of humor comes up fro the coffee, find out about the Portsmouth Sinfonia ... and listen to it ... and you can go out and scream and cry about what it might be torture in music ... and in the end, you are seeing a bunch of kids with multiple disabilities do something ... that we don't even have the balls to try! And pull it off, too!
 
Even noise is an illusion, and not music? Faust, and all those folks from Berlin that pretty much put electronic music on the map would disagree with you hundred fold ... and they would not be wrong! ... but yeah ... even many of them have eventually gone to conventional sounding music since ... !!! That's another story!

I make it a point to go out and just get up there and play. It really helps to think and feel and listen on you're feet. The good thing for me is I've played a lot in so many kinds of bands that I can sit in with about any band. I've been doing that that sort of thing from the beginning so for me I love "Jamming". Not being a block position player or blues pattern guy and spending decades on playing progressions means being able to feel my way around tunes like Giant Steps to the Thrill Is Gone and not being lost for long. The thing I love is when no one says a word to you and they say Hey do the backup/fills and and take a ride then glance at each other with a grin. Last time I went out to sit in no one said anything to me cept' hi and they went from tune tune tune. I would have had fun but my back started killing me. I guess what I'm saying is go out and put yourself on the spot. You may surprise yourself. 

UbiquitousBubba


As I said, my opinions are only my opinions.  No one has to agree with them.  I know several other musicians whose musical tastes are far more broad than mine.

I'm sure there are thousands of other musicians who would disgree with my statements.  There are probably millions of people who would disagree with me. 

That's fine by me.  I have reasons for my opinions and it really doesn't matter to me whether or not other people share them. 

I've also never said anything to disparage anyone with a disability.  There is a massive difference between someone who is doing the best they can and someone who just hasn't learned how to play.  My statement about kids playing and making noise was not an attempt to ridicule them for their failure to live up to my standards, but was an observation of what typically happens when people who haven't learned the basics of their instrument attempt to play together.

I understand that you may view my opinions as ignorant or illiterate.  Personally, I think that telling a group of musicians what they need to hear, study, or emulate in order to make music that lives up to your standards is rather insulting.  I would never tell an actor how to act because that's not my area of expertise.  If I did, I can't imagine why that actor should listen, since I don't have their years of experience. 

It's one thing to explain why you view music the way you do and what you value about it.  That's an opinion, and I think we can all respect it for what it is, even if we don't all share it.  That's very different from telling someone that you know better than they do how they should think. 

That's my opinion, though, not absolute fact.  My opinions may not be shared by anybody in the forum, and that's okay. 

Your opinion on this subject, and on Pedro are exactly the same. I find that to be oddly comforting and curiously unsettling. I'm okay with that.
 
Randy

Hi,

...
Your opinion on this subject, and on Pedro are exactly the same. I find that to be oddly comforting and curiously unsettling. I'm okay with that ...

If you want to say I'm an ****, you are welcome to say it ... but at least be honest about it and not beat around the bush. You even stated that in the discussion about the wife thing ... so why are you hiding behind something you want to say?

In the end, you are doing to me, with your words, exactly what you have stated that you would not want to do with the wife ... the question is ... you want to do it on everyone else?

I am being honest with my experience ... it has nothing to do with philosophy whatsoever ... but you think I'm telling you are wrong, when you are the one telling me my experience is non-existant. That's ****ed up, dude!

rsp@odyssey.net


Pedro, I've told you before what I thought of your opinions regarding what musicians should or shouldn't do. I was very honest. I've never said your experience was non-existant. However, writing music, playing an instrument, performing live music is something that by your own admission you have no experience in doing.

You are welcome to bloviate your opinions, and I'm entitled to think you are a longwinded blowhard with no real understanding of what you are talking about.

There now. I'd say the  bush is out of the way.

Randy

Note: My post above was meant to say "I share your opinion...

...as if the singer would know!  ;)

One of the best bands I was ever in had a rhythm section that had played together for 10 years. The could just lock in to a groove that was mesmerizing. We ended a song one night that had an extended lead section for the last minute or so. When it ended, the drummer looked at the bassist and said "Man, that groove made my eyes go crossed". That became out mantra. "let's get crosseyed"

Randy

marcos69


Back to the OP. I wonder if musicians gelling is sometimes an illusion. I had a band practice the other night where I felt the drummer was really in the pocket. Afterwards the singer/bass player pulled me aside and asked how I would feel about trying another drummer, that this guy just wasn't in the pocket...

The nights I felt the most disconnected -not only from the band but just off on my guitar and everything- I got the most compliments...I mentioned
it to other members and they said it happened to them too.
 
 

The bass player in the first band I was in contributed "Random Precision" when we were coming up with a band name.  We nixed it, but he was probably on to something...

spaceyThe nights I felt the most disconnected -not only from the band but just off on my guitar and everything- I got the most compliments...I mentioned it to other members and they said it happened to them too.

 
I met the love of my life over this!
 
A play I directed, also had all the technical design for my portion and the other portion done by me. There was a very tricky light change moment that I wanted in my portion ... that would make a very strong visual ... as to the difference between the first part and second part. The first part was conventional. The second part wasn't.
 
On opening night the light trick didn't work and the lady covered ok, but lost the illusion for me!
 
I went home and was not happy and went to bed.
 
Got a call 15 minutes later ...as I was about to fall asleep!
 
"Did you read the newspaper?"
 
"I'm in bed and asleep"
 
"You really should and then come to the party!"
 
"I'm bummed"
 
"You better read the review!"
 
"Ok. Thx."
 
I got up, looked at the newspaper, read it ... and yeah ... I had one of the shiniest and best reviews any director could ever imagine, and by a guy that was fairly well known in the history of Santa Barbara theater and compared the character I created to one of the most well known and appreciated fun characters that he had seen in years.
 
I went to the party, and that lady became my best friend and love for the next 3 years. She was more important in helping define so much of my writing than she will ever know or appreciate or understand.
 
I could say the same thing about that night and what people were seeing that I wasn't ... the "perfectionist" that also did psychic acting exercises and always worked to make sure things were tight, clean ... and slick ... and so much better than what others did!