http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOgXCutZOOU&feature=related

Now, these guys are on a different plane here...all improvised space rock.

Actually, most of my pieces stem from something along this type of scenario...noodling, to me, brings forth some ideas that end up as songs. Of a sort...

Mind, most of my...erm...early development, if that is what you call it, came out of a high school rock band that ended up touring for a few years under the rubric of space rock back in the early 1970's. 

But I think that if you tried to get me to write a more traditional piece, say, with hooks and such I would fail miserably....

It's very easy for someone who has not invested the time and energy into mastering a particular discipline to say, "It's just like [other art form]..."  I disagree.  Within music, there are some instruments that require significantly more effort and discipline to master than others.  In many cases, one does not develop a meaning degree of skill or mastery of the instrument for decades.  As a drummer, I would never equate the effort required to master my chosen instrument with that of a violinist because I understand that there are some significant differences in the degree of skills required.  True mastery of an instrument takes an incredible amount of time and effort.

I'm not saying that acting doesn't require discipline or skill.  It obviously requires a certain amount of technique, skill, and experience to do it well.  I'm just saying that these two fields are different and require different types of skill.  I think most people would find it insulting to have someone who has no experience in their field equate thousands of hours of gruelling practice and hard work with an actor memorizing a few pages of dialogue.  I think you would react very strongly if people here denegrated actors and directors without having firsthand knowledge of the subject at hand. 

Are there similarities between these fields?  Absolutely.  Can we find common ground?  You bet!  Insist there are no differences between them?  No.  Of course there are differences.  Obviously, there are differences.  Within rock music there are huge differences in the amount of expertise required to play different instruments and different genres.  Between rock, jazz, classical, world music, hip hop, etc. there are massive differences in the types and degrees of expertise required.  I don't know any musician who would deny this.

I cannot imagine a scenario where I would go to other performing artists and say things like this.  I may not know firsthand what an artist must do to develop their technique and artistry in their chosen medium, but I can appreciate it.  I have enough respect for their craft to recognize the differences between their skills and mine.  I would never presume to tell someone working in another art form where I have no expertise that their skills are just like mine.

This probably makes no sense to you.  I'm sure that you cannot see any differences at all, so you assume that all art forms are identical.  You probably cannot understand the idea that denegrating and minimizing the hard work and expertise of musicians is somehow insulting to them.  That's why I'm explaining it.  It's insulting.  Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it comes across.  If that's not the message you want to convey, then you need to be aware how it is perceived.  If it is your intent, then at least we can be clear on that subject.

UbiquitousBubba


It's very easy for someone who has not invested the time and energy into mastering a particular discipline to say, "It's just like [other art form]..."  I disagree.  Within music, there are some instruments that require significantly more effort and discipline to master than others.  In many cases, one does not develop a meaning degree of skill or mastery of the instrument for decades.  As a drummer, I would never equate the effort required to master my chosen instrument with that of a violinist because I understand that there are some significant differences in the degree of skills required.  True mastery of an instrument takes an incredible amount of time and effort.

I'm not saying that acting doesn't require discipline or skill.  It obviously requires a certain amount of technique, skill, and experience to do it well.  I'm just saying that these two fields are different and require different types of skill.  I think most people would find it insulting to have someone who has no experience in their field equate thousands of hours of gruelling practice and hard work with an actor memorizing a few pages of dialogue.  I think you would react very strongly if people here denegrated actors and directors without having firsthand knowledge of the subject at hand. 

Are there similarities between these fields?  Absolutely.  Can we find common ground?  You bet!  Insist there are no differences between them?  No.  Of course there are differences.  Obviously, there are differences.  Within rock music there are huge differences in the amount of expertise required to play different instruments and different genres.  Between rock, jazz, classical, world music, hip hop, etc. there are massive differences in the types and degrees of expertise required.  I don't know any musician who would deny this.

I cannot imagine a scenario where I would go to other performing artists and say things like this.  I may not know firsthand what an artist must do to develop their technique and artistry in their chosen medium, but I can appreciate it.  I have enough respect for their craft to recognize the differences between their skills and mine.  I would never presume to tell someone working in another art form where I have no expertise that their skills are just like mine.

This probably makes no sense to you.  I'm sure that you cannot see any differences at all, so you assume that all art forms are identical.  You probably cannot understand the idea that denegrating and minimizing the hard work and expertise of musicians is somehow insulting to them.  That's why I'm explaining it.  It's insulting.  Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it comes across.  If that's not the message you want to convey, then you need to be aware how it is perceived.  If it is your intent, then at least we can be clear on that subject.

Absolutely!  It takes decades to become completely proficient with spoons.

ubiquitousbubba

 I'm just saying that these two fields are different and require different types of skill. I think most people would find it insulting to have someone who has no experience in their field equate thousands of hours of gruelling practice and hard work with an actor memorizing a few pages of dialogue.
...

 
And I suppose that one might think that actors, directors, and other folks in my field, do not spend time studying these things before they do what they do? My average prompt book (director's script) for the last thing I did which was 32 minutes long, took me 3 weeks to finish, and we're talking probably somewhere near 120 to 130 hours ... and not a single rehearsal yet. In these cases, directing, I have to study and know what this is all about, so I can answer and help the actors.  The film script I turned in as a prompt book to the NW Film Center was 7 pages long in script, but 58 pages long in Prompt Book format. That only took me about 2 months to clarify the film script from my poem for them! Still waiting/hoping on that money ... but I'm up against Wieden and Kennedy ... which means I don't have a chance!
 

ubiquitousbubba

...
I think you would react very strongly if people here denegrated actors and directors without having firsthand knowledge of the subject at hand. Are there similarities between these fields? Absolutely. Can we find common ground? You bet! Insist there are no differences between them? No. Of course there are differences. Obviously, there are differences.
...

 
To be honest with you, and I do not enjoy being a snob at all -- I left the academic environment because I did not want to be a part of the snobbery that my family and famous dad were a part of ... none of you here will ever understand that ... not only nasty, but wrong!
 
But I will take the snob route that says ... dirt belongs under your feet to step on ... not in a discussion of ideas and thoughts.
 
All along I have been mentioning things that can be done in music, as well as on the stage, and experiments that work ... but folks that have not tried something different would rather state that they do not work, because it is not something they would do at all ... because it tends to break apart your "mental" hold on the music.
 
All actors have the same thing ... they learn the lines (the music) and then have to play it (on the stage with the audience) ... and the conditions are nearly the same emotional issues ... the more you know and understand ... the easier it is for you to do this ... the less you know, and the more confused you are -- because you were told to do this with no explanation -- the worse things will get ... go ahead -- get another drummer or guitar or idiot!
 

ubiquitousbubba

...
 I cannot imagine a scenario where I would go to other performing artists and say things like this. I may not know firsthand what an artist must do to develop their technique and artistry in their chosen medium, but I can appreciate it.
...

 
In some ways ... you are missing out if this is the case. Sometimes, you will find that you do not have to have some expertise as you think in order to play with different people and that what you can do ... actually fits, and all you have to do is adjust the timing a little bit ... no big deal to you!
 
There are musicians that do not "live" ... in a rock music comfort zone of 4/4 and 3/4 and thereabouts. Go listen to that link for Jon's piece ... live ... on the stage ... total improvisation ... has nothing to do with thinking ... and you can't tell me that there is no relationship, or understanding or playing that makes sense between those folks ... and this is the part ... that ... TO ME ... is missing in rock music. And someone, like me, mentioning that it can be done, is threatening to what you know ... or I don't. But the result, and visual, that experiments work are right there ... you can see it ... krautrock did it ... but folks with Sonar, at Sonar, or Cakewalk, can not imagine that there is life beyond the meter and what you know and I could possibly know?
 
That has nothing to do with your ability to hopd a beautifully synchronized 4/4 for 30 minutes and you only slipped once ... and the metronome is worthless next to you because you are better than its mechanical mind!
 

ubiquitousbubba

...
 I have enough respect for their craft to recognize the differences between their skills and mine. I would never presume to tell someone working in another art form where I have no expertise that their skills are just like mine.
...

 
And that is NOT what I said. I have never assumed, or presumed ... that my playing skills are anywhere near any of you here on this board. Playing wise? ...a  beginner. Listening and experience wise? ... way further out than you can imagine!
 
All along I suggested that there is more than can be learnt from that intuition. But if you can not "let go" any further than the 16 bars it takes for the guitar to finish its solo, I don't know that you have any idea how much further you can take this and go ... and that was one of my points.
 

ubiquitousbubba

...
This probably makes no sense to you. I'm sure that you cannot see any differences at all, so you assume that all art forms are identical. You probably cannot understand the idea that denegrating and minimizing the hard work and expertise of musicians is somehow insulting to them.
...

 
That would mean that I think I'm white, and you are black, or green or stupid.
 
I do NOT think that. They are not identical in that they are a different medium. They are "similar" in that the internal process that breaks these down, and learns them -- that we sometimes call "intuition" (and often isn't btw!) -- is the same. Mind/Body/Arms/Feet ... and the other side of the equation ... Mind/Soul/Spirit and your thinking process that helps you learn or forget it.
 
The assumption here, is always, that repetition and memorization is the ONLY thing that teaches you ... and that is ok when you are learning the chords, the notes and their sound or vibration. The rest is more conditioning and seasoning than it is anything else.
 
The conditioning and seasoning, is what prevents you from learning more and getting better. You get stuck doing the same thing and redoing it again years later ... and never getting off the part ... of doing it yet again. You can, and likely will be, a very good technical player and probably very useful as a studio musician ... because you recognize things quickly ... however, if you are "looking" for some inner freedom and expression because the 16 bars that it takes to do the "solo", this mechanical side, will have to break itself apart ... and this is HARD to do for anyone in any discipline.
...
 

ubiquitousbubba

...
That's why I'm explaining it. It's insulting. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it comes across. If that's not the message you want to convey, then you need to be aware how it is perceived. If it is your intent, then at least we can be clear on that subject.

 
It was never meant to be so, and I do not write telling you folks that I am right and you are wrong. All I have said is that there is more, and I even showed some exercises (they are not even listed/explained in Gurdgieff's books ... oh my!!!!) ... to help break the monotony of the "same thing" all the time. Unffortunately, this is hitting you, Randy and others in the wrong side of the noggin, that makes you guys feel that I am attacking your very obvious talented and capable playing ... which is not the case!
 
Lastly ... there is ... a saying in the "spiritual", "psychic", and all those areas that likes to have fun with us ... and it says that when you finally learn something new ... you do know the very first thing you say, right? ... ohhh, I could have done that before! ... and this is like saying ... I, you, us, anyone, were simply not ready for primte time to learn something new.
 
It's hard to learn something "else" when you are tuned to one thing only ... doesn't mean I'm saying I'm right and you are wrong. I have no concept of rights and wrongs, other than inner spiritual things, because I was reared in 3 countries ... thus no God or Nationalism to suck up to ... and the by product of that? ... I'm not desensitized to pop music or top ten in one country ... UB ... do yourself a favor one day ... take your guitar and go play in Mexico, Sao Paolo or Buenos Aires along with others ... they want to learn about the rock you know as much as you do about the music they know ...
 
It's all ... about the experience. And measuring yours, Randy, Jon's Bapu's Strummy's or anyone else ... is the same as us all lined up for weewee/peeing contests ... have we not grown up beyond that bs yet?

Dang!!

I mist the contest about the spoons!!

...
Yeah, I wanna see an "actor" pick up a guitar and play the part of Jimi Hendrix in real time with real playing. Or maybe some fast bluegrass or a complicated synth peice, with a full band accompanieing. Acting doesn't even compare to those set of skills.

Yeah .. I wanna see you read Shakespeare and not sound like **** either! Playing your guitar doesn't even compare to those set of skills either!

The hierarchizing of difference is what is at issue here.

Skill sets between each one of us is just different.

Not one being more or less than any other.

Can we imagine the possibility that difference is just that?

Difference?

Beagle

Moshkiae

trimph1


Dang!!

I mist the contest about the spoons!!

The hard part is that some of these blockheads think I'm pulling their 3rd leg!
 
And they would be very wrong this time and only this time!

Pedro - you and only you have started calling names in this thread.  you need to stop.

  
Weird ... no one wants to go check out the teaspoon thing ... they really think I'm kidding.
 
I merely repeated the original comment ... with different set of skills. Again, there are many parallels that are similar. It's not the same thing ... but there are similarities ... but it is ok for me to get told to stop it, and Crg not being told to stop it.
 
**** you!

Moshkiae

Beagle

Moshkiae

trimph1


Dang!!

I mist the contest about the spoons!!

The hard part is that some of these blockheads think I'm pulling their 3rd leg!
 
And they would be very wrong this time and only this time!

Pedro - you and only you have started calling names in this thread.  you need to stop.

  
Weird ... no one wants to go check out the teaspoon thing ... they really think I'm kidding.
 
I merely repeated the original comment ... with different set of skills. Again, there are many parallels that are similar. It's not the same thing ... but there are similarities ... but it is ok for me to get told to stop it, and Crg not being told to stop it.  
 

craig didn't call you a blockhead or anything else.
 

**** you!

Pedro - why are you doing this?  I haven't done anything to you either except say that I agree that you don't have a musician's experience - which you admit yourself.  why are you attacking me for telling you to stop attacking others?
 
Know what?  never mind.  I don't want to know.  just leave me alone.

Aren't differences wonderful? 

I think it's time for a new thread.  How about "Musicians Playing Together Acrobatically?"

Crg


It's just Mosh having a med moment. Musicians do act when they play live performances in addition to the playing skills needed to work an instrument. And we're not talking lip synch here.

Which is my point and I have stated that this can be taken further ... but I'm not sure it can be done if the only thing one looks at is the score.
 
A lot of acting exercises, with a director or not, are about opening up the choices in these moments, so more can be done to make it more viable and clear to the audience, instead of feeling like ... just reading the line ... or just playing the notes.
 
As I say ... how far do you want to take this?

crg
From now on I want every Shakespearean actor to play the lute while doing his lines and part. Maybe the Lyre.

 
I think some lines won't sound right ... like ... Get Thee to a Nunnery! ... or ... A Kingdom, a kingdom for a horse! ...

As I say ... how far do you want to take this?

 
LMAO
 Gee I don't know let's drop it off around the corner and see if it finds it's way home.

Star, on a serious note..

I know you didn't post to get "how to be in a band"
or opinions of how one works. I can tell you for every one
that says a band won't work like that...well there is one working.

Intuitive playing or commenting about it it must first be understood.
Nothing would or could seem worse to me than a gathering of
musicians that didn't know anything and got together and played making
claims that "magic" happened because of their super intuitive abilities.

Should we consider the freedom of improvisation and the mental state
of the musicians trying to reach that "magic" we probably think of the
difference between using the subconscious state of mind rather than the conscious mind.

One knows that we humans do many things every moment of every day without thinking.
Breathing being an example.
So can a musician learn to play without thinking so the music becomes "second nature" such
as breathing?

I believe that is where you wanted this thread to go...not the shortcomings or failures of musicians
in a band situation.

"Jazz" the freedom of improvisation. Many believe that everything we've ever seen, heard, tasted, smelled
or experienced is still in our minds. The ability to recall this information is or may be blocked by the conscious
mind and if one could "bypass" the conscious and tap into the subconscious while playing their instrument of choice
that they can "play" all their emotions or make their instrument "talk"...all that they have learned and experienced
can flow free in their music...just like breathing.

If one could and if one does- it makes a great deal of sense that one should dedicate much time to their study
of music, I would think.

Intuitive playing? If one claims that- what do they base it on? Just a feeling? Can it be repeated and controlled? Are there
conditions and criteria that must be met for one to achieve this ability and if so - is it just for the one or works
for the many?  Or is it that the music had some good moments and you think it was some super dooper mystical magic? 

It's a term that I believe some are trying to get others to use as a "super level" of state of mind combining both
the conscious and subconscious states of mind and throwing out all the "guidelines" of music so the music is
guided only by the thoughts and feelings of the musicians trying to play "together".

Call it what you want...I call it being a musician and being able to "get into" the music to make the magic happen.
I also believe that being able to play that tune with feeling and making that magic happen to that tune you swore
you kill yourself if you ever had to play it again is the intuition of a good musician.

Star it's also one of those things like....let your instrument do the taking- that's when people know if you're full
of **** or not anyway. :)   I think that holds true for other instruments too.

I dunno, I've had to play sets many times with people I've only just shaken hands with because mostly that's the situation I've been in.  Largely the players have all been of a certain 'standard' required to get the job done and sound slick and proficient and all that fulfilling a requirement stuff.

Often though you'll find fellow players that add something to what you are doing that makes the component parts greater than the sum of the individuals, players that inspire you to go beyond your normal grasp, players that provide a way of seeing things you hadn't noticed before or that can't be written on a score.

I'd say that was due to some kind of commonality in thinking, intuition if you like.  I've been involved in several line-ups just put together to play out in pubs because that sort of chemistry is going on and any sense of performing a duty is put aside and because of the 'knowing' that goes on between the players what comes out clearly infects the folk gathered to watch and a good time is had by all.  I have a brother for example whose chops are not so well developed as most people I'd normally gig with but he gets by and often we'll pull off something pretty good on the sheer fact there is some kind of understanding between us and the flukes often out number the events that were planned.  Aside from that it's plain fun.

It's just as natural as any other inter-personal relationship, you get on better with some than with others and with others still you find special relationships.  I don't know if any intense training is required for it to come as natural as breathing as long there is a fairly equal match in ability, so no one person outshines another, and that extra 'spark' is there.

The only sure fire way I know of finding that magic spark is to play alongside enough people that those kind of relationships become apparent.  Much like dating really you can go for dinner with plenty and while it may be pleasant and fun it's nothing like finding someone where you both go 'BINGO' sometimes in an instant...  It's a win-win though if you just go out and enjoy dinner without looking for that special ONE but she turns up anyway.

I'm sure it's like any other job where you work with a team, you'll want to take pride in your own work and you may do that job alongside others some you'll just do your duty with some you'll be more creative with in the time you spend working together, where hopefully productivity will increase, the output quality improves, and the day rolls by quicker because it becomes more fun.  Some of your work-mates you'll even spend time with out of hours.

So not so much intuition then as such but just basic healthy human interaction.