Musicians playing together Intuitively

I think the key ingredient is maturity. And it doesn't necessarily come with age. I played with people that just wouldn't stop playing when we need to fix something in practice. I actually had to make a sign I held up that said "Stop Playing!!" I've been trying to get a band together again for a while and am having trouble finding decent musicians. Musicians are sooo flakey. Now I remember why i stopped in the first place.

 
 I hear you both saying almost the same thing.

 We had one guitar player who would fill in for us. Not a very old guy. He would show up and play the dickens out of anything we threw at him.Never ask any questions. Unbelievable talent.No drama at all.Those types seem hard to come by.

 In my experience,being from areas that never were big music scene areas there were two extremes it seemed. The first was the group who all sat around and talked about directives and what we would and would not do. Styles,music...heck everything under the sun. Mostly all we did was talk. Very little real music happened and it seemed that no matter what was happening,someone else in the group either wanted to do it another way or didn't want to do it at all.

 In the bands that seemed to work well. Those guys showed up went through the tunes and started booking concerts. I only had the opportunity to be in a very few of those types of situations and briefly. The rest were drama and more drama and non committed people.

 I agree Mark musicians are flakey. To find a gifted person who is easygoing ,ego free and committed to the band is a tough one.

 

That story of spacey's could told a thousand times over and I include myself as that is where I've been. I would say when you gel it's it's fantastic but I have found that there is nothing like gigging to get that feeling. When everyone's on the spot there's no time for do overs and it's make or break if I could use those ol' Cliches. Rehearsal was always a pain for those who came prepared having to deal with the those who lacked initiative along with Girlfriend and wives problems, gigging was for the money and no BS.

 This has me seriously thinking that I'll agree to play a few brief practices before a major gig but I don't think I want to commit to a weekly practice if it is going to end up like  the events Spacey describe.

 I have been through some of this myself and had thought that it was mostly an isolated thing. People canceling at last minute or outright quitting were common place back then. Getting side tracked into everything but the music.... A lot of wisdom in what you guys say here.

 Our material isn't difficult to play and could be done with minimal practice. I'm thinking maybe I'll get to know the guys and how they play. This could be done in a few sessions. Then maybe get in a practice here and there but not like every week.

  I remember the feeling I would get whenever we would finally agree on a practice date and time...how I heard a little voice way back in my head saying, no way in heck this will follow though....and that little voice was always right.

 Like you say CT- If we can't cut it fairly quickly,there are other problems that will likely not be resolved with more practice. The combination is wrong and the thing needs re tooling.

Hi,
 
You know that Mosh is gonna jump in on this thread, right?
 
I'm not the expert in this area, but pretty much a lot of the music that I love the most has ... the one thing that most people in "Western Music" ... that would be the rock/jazz music experts for the last 50 years ... an improvisation in it, that is really hard to explain, and even harder for the Westernized Lullaby/Sonata format of music folks to ever be able to appreciate.
 
In specific, the groups that did this experimenting the most, were also students in Berlin and a couple of other Conservatories of Music whose teachers were fairly well known "composers" ... and if they had one thing in mind, it was "to not use western music concepts" ... something that in this forum is sacro-sanct and dangerous ... and no one will listen to it, because everyone is an addict to the kissing game that tells you that for it to be good, we all have to agree ... top ten mentality.
 
There used to be a saying in many mystic books, like Lobsamg Rampa, Siddhartha (the story anyway), Steppenwol (the story anyway), and a lot of other things that many folks can not exactly deal with, be it Castaneda, Aborigene, Magic, Gurdgieff, whatever one wants to call it ... and it said ... you have to unlearn all you know, in order to learn new things, or experience new things.
 
I'm not cynical enough to tell you that this is not true. I'm not stupid enough to tell you that this is true. But I know one thing ... with every new "learning", something else comes with it, that ... is hard to teach ... how you relate to it, and how you translate that relativity, or learning.
 
Many people think, that they can learn, and practice scales and do them faster or better than Jon McLaughlin ... with one problem ... there is no feel, or understanding, or beauty behind it! Why? You're only playing the scales and notes, and it is way too clinical. Now you go listen to Jon, and he makes that ... good god ... how did he do that and get such a nice feel between here and there? Egberto Gismonti does the same thing ... but (for joke's sakes here!) one only hears Eric or Van or Petrucci ... so you really do not see, or hear someone else do things differently, which (MOST important) can only be done in different music, as the conventional one has no room for such gymnastics!
 
This is one of the reasons why I happen to like listening to folks like Klaus Schulze ... it maybe a bit beat oriented, so he can keep pace, or what he calls a "sequencer" piece, and then he will do something else ... and on one day he has a cello player with him playing free form for 45 minutes! Or a guitar player that is with him for an hour! Or a voice/actor/poet (named Arthur Brown!) that also did free form with him.
 
Between you and I, we're all afraid of ... we don't know. And that is the only thing that will cause problems. The question is, and it is the same thing with actors on the stage, do you want to work bits and pieces and moments that help you clear out of that shtupp ... or do you just continue and only an idiot will think that was a mistake.
 
The other part is ... how much are you "zoned in" or "sync'd in" or "in tune" with it to the point where you do NOT have to worry or question what anyone did or not do ... and if you want, later you can hear it back, and decide to take what you thought was far out ... and next time maybe work something else.
 
One of the stupid exercises I used to do while directing for the stage, was introduce stupid stuff in th emiddle of the actors, and their work, and they would have to adjust ... and the only thing we used to say was ... you have to stay in character, or, you have to add to the dialogue, or you have to incorporate it into what you are doing while moving around this table or whatever. That part is easy! But someone running a broom through the stage while the two folks are kissing in bed, might not be ... Romeo and Juliet would care, they would continue on ... but Hamlet would probably get up and say ... get thee to a nunnery ... so you can see that there are many reactions that you can work with.
 
You can preset a few of these ... the question is ... do you want to? Another question is ... is there a change that you want to make at a certain point? Like, you want to continue it, or move in a different difrection ... which is common when folks GET STUCK!
 
All in all, when you sit through (for example) Amon Duul 2's Yeti (the long piece) and realize that is an improvisation ... the immediate question is ... wow ... how did they do that ... and you have to trust each other and allow them to be themselves. Or you can do a more "pointed" piece like "Phallus Dei" that was a commentary on the commune life at the time ... it's all a party that you got stoned on! And you trip through it.
 
Now, go listen to Ravi Shankar, and some of these other masters in improvisation ... and it will drive you nuts ...
 
Lastly ... I have always thought, that if you are asking the question, that you are NOT concentrating on the communication with the folks that are playing with you. Basically, in my experience, you want to file it as "experience" and the more you do the easier it gets and the more fun and stuff you can add and illustrate ... and you start thinking of fun things to do that music does not allow you to do!
 
Stick with the "feeling" and let that teach you ... it will teach you how to accentuate and play notes like no one ever will be able to explain or teach you!
 
As I say, in the end, this is all about "YOU".

Hi,

I was thinking something like this ... for an add ...

Guitarist looking for musicians that have no ideas or concepts of what music is, to create an experimental band. Lyricsists accept but likely not needed as this is not a song and you can't do Damo or Flora! Keyboards would be lovely, bass is ok ... drummer at this point ... like not needed since he/she would get lost after 4 bars ... etc, etc ...

(Watch the responses and 10 drummers knock on your door!)

The little bit of improve that I do involves starting out with a structure and leading into another known structure but no planning is involved. If mindless jammin' counts I have done my share of that with others. Usually after 3 cups of coffee I can get into some stuff that sounds wonderful....until the next day lol.

 
You really want to go listen to Amon Duul 2's Yeti (the long piece in their double album), and it might be considered a continuation but finding a structure in there is like doing a study on the Firebird Suite!
 
Structure, and we had the same problem on the stage, is ... let's say ... an "illusion" ... because you can't rehearse Beckett, or Osborne, or Khibukhi, or Albee, the same way you do Oklahoma or All that Jazz. And you won't rehearse your stuff the same way either!
 
When you rehearse on the stage, for example, I can take 5 minutes of it, and say ... we're going to smooth out the transitions ... we're going to smooth out the connections (between folks) ... we're going to make sure that the movement can match the lighting trick that I was hoping to get in here ... all of them, things that can "change" the focus of the piece as a whole ... so let's say that at this moment you decide to try that fuzz ... and while ... yeah ... far out ... it changes the focus of the music piece as a whole, and ... now everyone is struggling with how to bring it back ... to ... whatever ...
 
No sooner do you have an "idea" that the conditions change. In rock'n'roll, they take out as many conditions as possible, meaning that the only "rehearsing" you can do is clean it up ... which is not an experiment! And, in general, experiments, is not what is needed when you are "cleaning up" as they tend to unfocus the whole piece and moment!
 
So, what's left? ... I feel this ... and am expressing it like this ... and I can feel Bapu play ... ohhh that was cool ... hopefully he will replay it so I can really bump him good! ... in other words, help each other by coloring the moments even better ... and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't ... and you can record it and all listen back to it ... but here, the "discipline for listening" is important. Like ... make sure you hear the whole thing in one swell foop first ... before saying anything ... because this will help you acknoledge the other folks later.
 
Maturity ... is not necessarily the key. Maturity, sometimes, also means stubborness. There are times when the freshness of a new kid, that has no idea of what he is doing, but he can fly  .... is really good ... c'mon ... you would not want to have had some fun with a crazy guy named Jimi? And both Noel and Mitch said that it was not exactly easy to play together but they always managed. Or I like the comment by that Guy that used to play bass with Stevie ... ohh it was fun ... and then I trumped him one time by tuning everything half a tone down ... and son of a gun ... guess what we had? ... yep!
 
You can't plan it ... and sometimes the less you plan the better ... because the reaction is what will give everyone the "thrust -- or rush" that will get you something or other.
 
The only secret there is, is that the reactions are usually priceless ... and different ... but many of them will always be remembered. And I don't know a master artist on any stage anywhere ... that is not appreciative of these very special moments ... that you can not script, you can not find them, you can not write them ... but ... boom ... there it is .. right in front of you!
 
How well do you want to see?
 
How well do you want to hear?
 
How well do you want to play?
 
That's when it all comes together! Until then is all scales and scales and notes and notes ... and everything else ... except that one third dimention that you are hoping to find someday with your instrument!

Guitarhacker


Wow... I'll have to back and read those other posts when I get a minute or 30.... 

What makes a band enjoyable to me is: 

Players with: 

.......skills and chops

........no ego between players (we're on the same team)

.......who know how to control their volume when playing

........who know how to be quiet when not playing a song. 

....... who show up on time and on schedule

.......who don't forget this or that at home * 

...... who actually practice their instrument at home between band rehearsals.


For a band to play as a cohesive unit, it generally takes some time. Pro's make is seem so easy and can sound like they've been playing together for years with just a few hours of rehearsal time. They understand that list above and live by it. 

Most bands take more than a few rehearsals to get it together. Some unfortunately, never quite get it. 



*we showed up at a gig, set up and got ready for a sound check..... the bass player had forgot to bring his bass. It was at the house...... one hour and 20 minutes one way to the house.  

Brilliant :)
 
It wasn't Bapu was it?

The best bands I've ever been in, or had real close contact with, were put together 1 player at a time. It's almost like mixing. A good drummer will know a couple of good bass players. Those guys will know of other guitarists, singers, etc. These recommendations will usually mean they get along with these guys. Very important that!

In my gigging days, there was one guy who "ran" the band. He owned the PA and had a truck to move it. He had a practice place. He had contacts for gigs. He knew what kind of band he wanted and found the guys who were like minded, whether it was full time working, or every weekend, or just a couple of gigs a month. I was that guy. The only democratic part of the band was when it came to song choice. It had to be unanimous. Nothing worse than everybody liking a song except the drummer, guitarist, singer, etc...It shows.

When it came to reliability issues, the leader has to be the one to deal with it. Nobody responds well to being ganged up on when they screw up. If lateness or not being prepared became an issue, I would take the guy aside and find out what happened. If it was just plain flakiness, warnings were issued and followed through on if needed. 

As I'm sure others will attest to, being in a successful band is not for the weak. It's commitment and work. Not hard work, because we are musicians after all, but it's still work.

Randy

Hi,
 

GuitarHacker
Players with: 

.......skills and chops

........no ego between players (we're on the same team)

.......who know how to control their volume when playing

........who know how to be quiet when not playing a song. 

....... who show up on time and on schedule

.......who don't forget this or that at home * 

...... who actually practice their instrument at home between band rehearsals.
...\

 
It all helps ... but in the end, are you more concerned with any of these details or concerned with the very specific moment that you are with the musicians and playing th emusic.
 
Again, you have to separate something here ... are you "experimenting" or are you "rehearsing" ... as that is two completely different things.
 
Essentially, most musicians do NOT learn or find out what the other folks with them are all about, because they never experiment with that person ... you are too concerned with making sure the right chops are in the right place ... and that is not "experimenting" or "playing with intuition". That's reading the score/script, and following it!
 

GuitarHacker
...
For a band to play as a cohesive unit, it generally takes some time. Pro's make is seem so easy and can sound like they've been playing together for years with just a few hours of rehearsal time. They understand that list above and live by it. 
...
Most bands take more than a few rehearsals to get it together. Some unfortunately, never quite get it. 
...

 
This part I can not suggest on, based on your experience. Again, it depends on what you set out to do and try, when you first plug anything in the very first minute ... have you tried ... I just want to jam, go crazy, do anything, for an hour ... so we can just try and see what each other does and learn from it ... we can not stop, we can not tape it ... we can not talk about it ... and we're stricktly to have fun and enjoy each other's company, regardless of anything else.
 
After that we go out, have a burger or call it a night (which is best!) ... and it is best to not discusss it and just let the experience sink in some ... and then next day move along with whatever you want to do.
 
Unlike a lot of theater, film, in music the warm up stuff is much more illusory, and unclear. There are just as many times when something good can come out of the first "cold" take, as it can from the 50th take after rehearsal ... the difference being that when we're critical in learning how to improve these things, that we can NOT be negative ... and this is where some of your requests at the top can come off negative, and sometimes demanding something that is hard to have and come by.
 
But yes, there are issues with those details, but you have to make a "rule" that this is all about the band, not the rules, and that each moment is not a rule, but an experience ... and after that you can move on to play better and concentrate better. Before then there will be moments of memory latency ... gawd I hate when he does that ... which is not exactly understanding, how/why that person made the error in the first place.
 
Willingness is an issue ... but so is the right/ability to not be critical ... and learn how to do it better and right ... which (of course) ... is a serious issue IF you are playing top ten at the Red Lion circuit .. then everything written here is worthless!

Hi,

People are always telling me to read the thing better ...

But if I read this properly ... it was asking about "intuitive" ... and most replies here were not studying the "intuitive" side of things as opposed to band situations when the material is already scripted.

This is, btw, one of the hard parts of me writing things here. Do you folks KNOW that you can play around with intuition in music and learn to play better? Do you folks know that mechanics is not quite 100% of that equation? Do you know that trickery and cleverness is not enough to make you shine on a stage? (it might help in rock music with a big dick and tight pants ... what the heck!)

...

My whole discussion is geared towards the "experimenting", and that is where I have stayed and given the examples I have come up with.

Beagle
I am just curious about all of the advice being given here and how it relates to a person's actual experience or whether it relates only from opinion?

 
Mine is from the stage and film sphere area, but I have done a few things with a band when we were living in the same house.
 
Experiments, in a rehearsal context (6 week rehearsals for most plays) and such is very different, than a context like the early Krautrock, or anything goes school of music, or the old Fillmore thing, that gave us so many bands. It was out of that freedom ... I don't care about the rules or whatever, that brought us so much new music.  But the more you read from Can's website, or Amon Duul's or Faust's or Ash Ra Tempel, or Klaus Schulze, or Vangelis, or any of those master folks that came out of the Berlin Conservatory and a couple of other music schools -- and no ... this is not Berklee Music ... this is seriousmusic school! ... the more you realize that what they did, is so close and similar to theater and film ... they did not have any idea, but they did have the desire to put something together ... it would scare the living sheepdip out of people here to learn that the whole album "Tago Mago" was never composed, or rehearsed and that it was cut this, cut that, cut this or cut that ... and voila ... a double album ... but for you folks here ... that's stupid to call that "music" ... or rock music, for that matter ... and yet ... there you have it ... pure "experiment and then some, and 52 pickup on top of it ... we don't have to mention how many writers and film makers were also involved with these folks ... btw ... which is the biggest mistake that most rock bands these days are failing to see, relate to and understand! Combine the arts ... !!!
 
A lot of this is understood and respected in theater, film, and most stage arts, because it tends to be studied a little bit. But it is really hard to discuss in a place like this ... because rock musicians rarely have had a "director" to help them improve their presentation and work. That's not to say that everyone can handle it, but rock music, in general, has become such an egotistical art, that it is really difficult to let that go, so you can learn something else.
 
Almost all famous folks tell you of surprises as to how some things came about ... and surprises happen the best ... when? ... yeah ... you can't script it! But are you ready to play through it? ... I can tell you, that like most actors ... 80% of them easily pause and break when something like that happens, and this shows a lack of learning and how to work together in any situation. Music ... breaks down the experience. Beagle .. it doesn't have to! That is a golden moment to learn about intuition and the anger and whatever, just closed down the store!
 
Let's see if we can keep the discussion to "intuition"!

I agree with Randy. Having been in bands as a hired hand and on the other hand, also being the guy with the truck, PA, lights, and gigs/contacts and having to run it all......

Democracy in a band sucks. It is a recipe for disaster.  Someone needs to be the leader who makes decisions.  A benign dictatorship works best with everyone knowing the rules up front. Even in bands that were started on equal footing...everyone has a say..... communal type bands..... someone eventually emerged naturally or elected as a leader. there tended to be lots of drama and fighting in those bands. 

 And 100% yes on that the songs should be a unanimous decision. everyone should like the music they are playing.

There were times, back when I was a hired gun to play the tunes,  that I hated some of the songs with a  passion, and I could have cared less about getting them right or playing with feeling.  

Slash is a good example. He does play all the time almost non stop. But he came into it with something a little more than most

 
See if you can find old footage of Slash and Axl ... one is going left and the other is going right ... and yet ... they are there and those concerts were insane and great at the same time.
 
Most important of all, and it is something that is really precious that has to be taught to all stage folks ... you can not be afraid of the moments that don't go right ... let it go, and move along ... for which, for example ... in a Harold Pinter scene we needed a break ... because the lines did not "follow" ... and I came up with an accidental bit ... when the actor got up, cigarette in mouth ... and he saw a nice vase with a fake plant, and took half a step to drop the ashes in it ... it wasn't scripted ... but it was there 2 feet away ... and it became "major" because all of a sudden we had the "break" in the transition that we needed.
 
Now ... if you are doing "jazz", or an open ended bit on the last piece of the night, you can make room for things like that and have some fun. But when you are doing what you are doing, it is likely too limited.
 
In my writing, the most fun I always have is when the freedom .... is ... FREEDOM ... and I have to remind myself what the word means ... many times. But I have been lucky when it comes to these experiments ... I have never given in "artistically" to the regular club. My hearoes are the biggest experiment'ers of any time and place and period ... in any art ... and this is not something that most of us study to find out ... what makes a Picasso tick? A Dali? ... what makes Klaus Schulze tick? ... Vangelis? ... Faust?
 
I suppose that you could say that I am a bit rude, because I didn't ask what makes Bapu tick, or Beagle, or Jon, or Strummy ... but what I am talking about is ... from what I can see ... so far away from what they do ... that even I wonder if I have gone too far. But I can tell you that my writing is smoother than ever, and cleaner than it has ever been. The "inner vision" I work from is always technicolor and has music in it ... now if I could get these guys to help put music to it ... it would be nice!