ORIGINAL: johndale

Jim Roseberry, push's products for a living. You really think he paid for his. I got know ****ing axe to grind. I just tell the truth and the truth is out there. I'n right down the road from where Creative/EMU does their "engineering". I know a lit also. I'm not gonna argue the point.......................JDW

John (yet again) you're going off the deep end
1. I bought my Emu card (retail - no discount)
2. I *DO NOT* sell Emu products

Yes, Emu is working on a new series of cards.
Uhhh.... is this *really* so shocking??? Literally every company is constantly developing new products. I guarantee that RME, M-Audio, etc are *all* developing a new series of audio cards. No matter when you purchase or what you purchase, there will *always* be something bigger/better around the corner. Welcome to the technological circle of life.

As for my 1820m working perfectly fine...
Well... it does
As does my Hammerfall DSP and Frontier Dakota... etc

I really don't have any ties or affinity to Emu.
But when I see your extreme posts/comments, it seems reasonable to also share my positive experience/knowledge about the card.
Personally, I don't care if/when Emu comes out with a new series of audio cards.
I'll switch cards when my current unit no longer serves my needs.

Bottom line is that your opinions/experiences are just that... (yours)
They are not absolute fact for everyone...

For another take on the 1820M --
Cakewalknet.com just published a very lengthy review: http://www.cakewalknet.com/index.php?page=article/show&article=92995c34d22358f5d8dc2d51dfa06f6f

The reviewer acknowledges various issues; the worst (in his view) was that if a flaky plugin crashed, the 1820M ASIO driver would hang, requiring a reboot. That said, he experienced very few problems with Sonar 4 -- unless he used a particular plugin he liked, but knew was flaky. EMU verified the bug and said it would be fixed in the upcoming driver release (whenever that is).

The reviewer used the 1820M (in place of his MOTU 2408 Mk. II) for 3 months, and was never once tempted to go back to his MOTU.

I'm still planning on getting an EMU 1212M for the DAW I'm building this summer (I've decided I don't need the extra I/O, since I'm using ADAT to connect to a 2nd PC (running a Korg OASYS PCI and various plugins). I am completely confident I can get the Emu working properly in my new DAW (I've been working with PCs and music software since 1984).

My 2 bits.

- Jim

Edit: Oh, and John? You walked into your first studio in 1973, and have 'been around a bit of hardware' ? I walked into my first studio in 1971. I build my first electronic sound manglers in 1969. I ran a college electronic music studio in 1976 (4 track, 1/2 inch Scully decks and a big ARP 2500 modular). I was an audio tech at Orban (audio and broadcast electronics) for a year (1979), earning money for music school. I helped design around 25 Korg products (early 80's) before jumping ship and co-writing Sequencer Plus. I wrote post-production software for Otari Console Products for four years (1989-93) And I'm still getting into plenty of audio mischief.... Give me a break. Give us all a break.

You've got no ax to grind? Paul Bunyan couldn't swing the ax you're grinding. (And Hendrix sure wouldn't want to play it)

ARP 2500 modular

To get technical Jim. That was an Arp 2600..........................JDW

Oh, And anybody can be a reviewer for a free webpage. Let me try my hand. But they might lose some advertising dollars

The original article reference:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1813855,00.asp

is actually nicely written, and is very informative.

After reading it (and not really wanting to pass judgement either way!),
I got the impression that there were some basic technical issues with Creative's older
chip -- i.e., problems with Sample Rate Conversion between 44.1k and 48k,
and problems supporting the 96K/24 bit mode. To me, it seems natural that development
would NEED TO SCRAP the old chip and start with a new design, rather than
continue building upon a fundamentally "flawed" model.

Interestingly, the article says:

Work began on the X-Fi about three-and-a-half years ago.

And the discussion of the five engines [SRC, tank, mixer, filter, DSP] (to me) sounds like
they could really be trying to address issues that affect audio in a serious fashion.


The most interesting part for me was this:

...(The) Creative "Active Premium Audio" processing can optimize the audio quality for a particular speaker system and listening environment. Apparently, it can even automatically improve the quality of audio given your particular speaker system and listening environment. Creative distinguishes "Active Premium Audio" from current audio products in that the latter can handle high bit-depth, high sample-rate content in a very precise way, but because it is passive, it can only do this when it receives premium quality content. According to Creative, an Active Premium Audio system is capable of enhancing any content to derive multi-channel premium quality audio even from stereo compressed audio content to give a DVD-Audio like experience. Creative will be calling this its Active Premium Audio (APA) capability, and it will be implemented as a feature of X-Fi based products, though under a different name.

APA could prove interesting in that in that it may be able to restore a good bit
of the dynamic range and high-frequency information typically lost to popular
compression schemes like MP3, WMA, and AAC. If this claim makes you a bit suspicious,
you're not alone...

- john

he 2600 was the 'suitcase' model; Arturia has a pretty good emulation of it, I think.
The 2500 was a honkin' big modular system. which used funky cross-matrix switches for patching, instead of patchcords (like a Moog Modular).

Calling it a 2600 would be like confusing a Minimoog with a Moog Modular. But coming from you, I can't say it surprises me much.

It was the 2600 I used. 32 years ago. Was the 2500 before or at the same time as the 2600? And I still remember my mini Moogs and Arp Odessey's. Thank for the link. Did check the ones on the EMU. Y'all are always hollerin' PROOF. The only time there is a price reduction like that these days, is when they are unloading inventory for one reason or another. What can I say......................JDW

johndale -- according to synthmuseum.com, the ARP 2500 and 2600 were both produced 1970-1981. I used them both in the mid 70's (in two different studios).

Thanks for the pointer to the discount-priced 1820M. At that price, I may decide to get the 1820M insteaad of the 1212M after all.

JonD - If you're interested, Martin Walker's SOS review is available: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun04/articles/emu.htm Martin has written extensively on PCs and music, and I have a lot of respect for him.

zgraf -- Emu made a previous attempt to enter the desktop music market with their 'APS' offering. At the time, it was pretty interesting -- much better A/D and D/A than the Sound Blasters available at the same time. However, it had a major flaw that was a showstopper for many (including me): all internal processing was done at 48KHz, and all incoming digital audio were sample-rate-converted to 48KHz. Even incoming 48K audio was re-converted -- there was no provision for syncing to an external audio clock! Since many people wanted to work at 44.1K .... well, it was a mess. I ended up getting a Delta 66 instead (and later, a Korg OASYS PCI on blowout for $500 -- a wonderful card, originally priced at $2200).

To make things worse (for EMU), the APS digital circuitry (converters aside) was virtually identical to the SB Audigy. Someone figured out how to 'crack' the APS driver so it would work with an Audigy card. Since the APS was priced at something like $500-600 street, and you could buy an Audigy and external high-quality A/D/A for less than half that ---- you can guess what happened.

EMU stopped APS development, and a lot of APS owners were understandably pretty ticked about it (and particularly about the lack of drivers for Win2K or XP. Sometime last year (?), EMU finally released Windows 2000/XP drivers for the APS, much to my surprise. FWIW, my OASYS PCI card still only works under Windows 98SE (or ME), or Mac OS9, and it's extremely unlikely Korg will ever release XP or OS X drivers for it. While this has ticked some people off, I'm personally cool with that (because I understand what a bear of a job it would be, with no possibility of breaking even on driver development costs given the number of units in the field). There's a small-but-thriving community around the OASYS PCI, and people are still writing new programs for it. (Dan Phillips, the former OASYS PCI product manager, has made some really amazing stuff available for free). Right now, my OASYS is shelved , but when I build my new DAW, the OASYS PCI will go into the old one and I'll dual-boot 98SE as needed (but then, I'm pretty geeky).

Anyway -- the APS was definitely flawed, and many people were very suspicious of the new product line. Certainly the 1212M/1820M has some warts -- the DPS-based effects are mostly not that great, the VST interface to those effects reportedly doesn't work so great, and the WDM drivers leave much to be desired. PatchMix is overkill for many people, and makes the product tricky to configure. That said, the audio quality and price/performance is great, IMHO. And the new products do not sample-rate-convert audio: they work at standard sample rates (and sync to incoming clock) with none of the nasty low-level digital audio artifacts that plagued the APS. Since I don't care about the DSP effects, and Sonar supports ASIO, and I'm comfortable doing OS tweaks as necessary -- the EMU cards look very attractive to me. If they're getting discounted/blown out -- that's fine too; they still fit my current needs.

So much for history -- time to make some music!

Jim

ORIGINAL: Jim Wright

For another take on the 1820M --
Cakewalknet.com just published a very lengthy review: http://www.cakewalknet.com/index.php?page=article/show&article=92995c34d22358f5d8dc2d51dfa06f6f

The reviewer acknowledges various issues; the worst (in his view) was that if a flaky plugin crashed, the 1820M ASIO driver would hang, requiring a reboot. That said, he experienced very few problems with Sonar 4 -- unless he used a particular plugin he liked, but knew was flaky. EMU verified the bug and said it would be fixed in the upcoming driver release (whenever that is).

FWIW, the reviewer seems to be having other problems with his unit. See http://www.productionforums.com/emu/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3362

Best,

urock

Thanks Jim. Yeah the cooling thing was kind of a bear for about a week. I got a Zalman CPU cooler, 1 chassis fan, another case fan(2) that $10 Silver grease and now I idle (light work) with a core temp of @47C and pushing a large (for me) project I hit 60-62C. Intels worrys start at 75C on my chip. I also run the UAD-1 for most of my effects and processing. I had a 2.4 Prescott when I first got the EMU, which ran at more industry standard temps (comparable to the Northwood) and still had my EMU problems. I just ordered a Delta 66 ($150 including shipping) and will use that to get my new real soundcard. Myself I don't care for Firewire for audio, to me another issue that could cause problems. I've at this point decided on the LynxTwo w/ that ADAT 16 channel card. Total @ $1250 at current prices. I really have tried everything to get what I want out of the EMU. I did not want to be part of a conterversy, the card just did not meet my expitations. I'm still open to soundcard ideas. Price has become no object in this area. I just want it to sound good, be expandable and reliable. But thanks for the advise on the Prescott. I'm waiting on PCI Express to mature and also more 64bit compatable drivers before I do a machine upgrade. I don't like spending and going in circles, I'd much rather spend on other things (Guitars). But I just want a great sounding,stable machine, that will do anything my warped mind imagines (musicaly).........................JDW

What is this "EMU only 48k" thing all about ? Why do Creative/EMU seem so immovable on it? How come every other manufacturer manages to accommodate every clockrate known to man without all this conversion? Dedicating up to 70% of a chip's processing to SRC seems like a crazy thing to do. -Double the processing, in and out, double the latency,double the error rate, double the headache.
Back in the day, I bought an AWE32, then a SBLive when they first came out - even recorded demos with them, just to get the hang of DAWs without spending a fortune. The Soundfont player built in was handy for demoing and placeholders etc when PCs weren't powerful enough for soft samplers. They were great. That was then.
Giving the chip 20x more horsepower then using it all to fix a basic design flaw seems bonkers.

My 2c
Steve

I just sold mine. CHEAP. No more EMU 1820m conversation from me. Bad memory. That company will never get my business again.............JDW

tsf -

I looked at the Terratec a while back too. The converters on the 1212M are way better sounding. According to the Zzounds listing, the Terratec has 18-bit analog outputs and 16 bit analog inputs. (1212M has 24/24 bit converters that are excellent).
The 1212M will definitely support use of all 8 channels over ADAT, simultaneously. You can also use S/PDIF I/O simultaneously with both analog I/O and ADAT I/O. The Terratec doesn't support simultaneous S/PDIF and ADAT use.
The 1212M also supports 96K sample rates (with significant restrictions); Terratec does not. FWIW, I record 44.1/24 bit myself, most of the time.

If you get the Emu, plan on using ASIO (rather than WDM) drivers. There have been some reports of hardware compatibility issues (with some motherboards, marginal power supplies). The 1212M/1820M are not simple install/power-up/go devices; they have tons of options and installation can evidently be a bear. Since you already have a Creative card in your system, you'll have to be especially careful with installation, and follow the recommended procedure exactly -- regardless of whether or not you want to keep the Creative card installed, for gaming. (Emu recommends you remove any SoundBlaster type card; you can't use the SB and 1212M simultaneoulsly in any case). Also -- the PatchMix software is extremely flexible, but has a serious learning curve. Plan on spending 'quality time' figuring out how PatchMix works, and don't assume signal flow will be configured to fit your needs (or even produce audio!), out of the box.

Some people have problems with the 1212M. It may be a bit fussy with certain PC hardware combinations. Most sound cards have problems in certain scenarios (RME is perhaps an exception; their gear and drivers are highly regarded -- and priced accordingly). That said, a lot of people have been extremely happy with the 1212M and 1820M, and I'm still planning to buy one (leaning more towards 1820M at this point, since it's apparently on sale via pagecomputer.com).

My 2 bits. I don't own one yet.

- Jim

I ran the 1820m for 8 months. I would recommend that you wait till the new drivers come out and people report back on them positively before investing. I been doing DAW well over 10 years and my experience with EMU was poor. Buyer beware. That Behringer thing will give you 8 more analog outs. But you will also be experiencing the Behringer converters in your signal chain...............JDW

tsf -

The EMU manuals and a Sonar PatchMix tutorial are available here:
http://www.emu.com/support/files/download2.asp?Centric=759&Platform=1

Download'em and see for yourself

It's certainly true that some people have had a bad time with the 1820M and 1212M. Many others have had a very positive experience. It's hard to determine the percentage of users that have actually had problems, since happy customers are a lot less likely to post. There's tons of traffic on various Cakewalk forums about these cards.

If you get an Emu ---
- Don't assume you can use the Emu hardware effects via the promised VST adapter. That doesn't work well yet, especially when bouncing tracks. There are workarounds, but not great ones.
- Don't assume WDM drivers will ever do more than stereo. ASIO is the only choice for multi-tracking and full use of the card.
- Hardware Effects don't work at all above 48K sample rates. Audio I/O channel counts drop substantially above 48K sample rates; at 192K, I believe only stereo I/O works.

The CakewalkNet review is quite recent (May 14, 2005) and is pretty candid about what's great and and what's not so great. The review author wrote "Perhaps the most telling statement I can make, though, is that, after using the 1820M for approximately two months, I sold my old audio interface, thus cutting out any possibility of a return to my past status quo. Yep, the 1820M is here to stay!"

He's had some issues, noted in the review and elsewhere online, but has apparently worked them out adequately.
YMMV, as always.

- Jim

Oh by the way. EMU will not give you a compleate driver set. only patches. So if your original CD gets any kind of problem. Now or in the future. It will take 4-6 weeks to get a new disk from EMU. And thats after you go thru an NCIC check Why ?...............................JDW

I was in a good mood that day and was tired of argueing. I found out the company were skillfull liars and had no intention of honoring what they promised. Mine worked to a point, but it was not what was advertised. I feel like a fool for paying $500 to be at best a beta tester and at worst, a mark to help them clear their warehouse of some old Audiology cards. Which they just stuck an EMU sticker over the Creative sticker. I pulled their whole system apart while I was uninstalling and was sickened by some more things I found. But like I said it does not matter now, the cards down the road and I would **** my pants before I used a Creative/EMU toilet. I feel that company lied and decieved me. Rest my case. I know what those cards will and won't do. Y'all can do what you like, but remember buyer beware......................JDW