stevec

Also it was playing through my computer speakers. They are not average but quite good for what they are. None the less, I did not run it through my monitors. So I figured that it was due to the setup and the fact that it was streaming audio going through a Realtec audio chip. I am not saying it didn't do anything just I couldn't hear a difference.

 
In all fairness, Craig did mention that listening thru studio monitors is the best way to hear the difference.   I haven't listened myself, but have found this thread very interesting...   (and at time entertaining)
 
Now, if only I could remember to turn those dang CEs on when starting a project, or maybe creating a template with them turned on...
 

I listened to the video through two different audio interfaces. Through my monitors and my Bose 6.1 speaker system. Also ran it through my QSCs K12s and still after all that I could not detect any difference. I tried many different combinations of audio interfaces and speakers

I can definitely hear the difference through my Grado headphones - more so on my own tracks than on the video of course. I don't consider my ears to be very well trained at all, and sometimes have a lot of trouble hearing subtle effects like compression. Yet I can hear the CE. It adds a little more presence, especially in the high end. 

With regard to placement in the PC, I mentioned in another post that the CE seems to add quite a lot of extra frequencies in the low to mid region as well. You can see this if you put a strong high pass filter on a track so that only the highest frequencies are coming through, then put the console emulation AFTER the EQ. With the CE turned off, there are no low frequencies at all. Turned on, you can see exactly where the CE is adding frequencies and how much, by looking at a frequency analyzer. The different types of CE behave differently - the S-Type seems only to add very low frequencies, whereas the other two add frequencies all the way into the mids. 

What this means is, if you're using a high pass filter to control mud in your track, then the console emulation is going to add some of the frequencies that the filter has removed. So if you use HPF's to this end and you don't want any new lows added, you might consider putting an EQ with a HPF after the console emulation on the track. 

"less sterile" - that is a good description.

jb101

pdarg

The Sonar documentation recommends making the CE plug the FIRST in the ProChannel chain; they don't explain why.

And yes - the effect is cumulative - so it is best to start with the plugs on, and then mix, rather than adding them as a last step.

It says that in the manual, but they had them last in the Webinar, it's last in all the presets, and Noel Borthwick suggested putting them last, as did someone from Overloud, the Console Emus developer..

This is an important factor - and we have two authoritative sources telling us opposite things.
 
Can someone from Cakewalk weigh in on this?

Without EMU thinner but better stereo image...distant.  With EMU warmer tighter stereo image and vocals/drums more up front.  About on par difference wise as Slate VCC but not near as pronounced as WAVES NLS.  YMMV.

Agree also about having the placebo effect of the on screen clues.  Would suggest listening...if you haven't already... with your video monitor off and at a "decent" (read loudish) volume on good montiors or phones.

Here, copied from an older thread, is a reply from Thomas Serafini, DSP Developer at Overloud (Who developed the Console Emulations in X2):
 
"I'm going to answer your questions from our DSP development perspective which is not related to the parameter naming. The Console Emulator module emulates the summing circuitry of the mix bus. Its natural position is at the end of the chain (last module in the channel) because in a real console the summing happens after all the channel processing. The Trim control is not related to the "Input Trim" control of a real mixer; it is something which controls the amount of these "summing effects". The Console Emulator module is not a channel strip plugin; it only simulates the mix bus summing effects. It also has a Drive control in case you do not have any preamp simulation modules and you want to boost the channel gain and increase the amount of nonlinear processing. This is more like to the "Input Gain" control on the preamp of a real mixer.
 
"You can also experiment some creative use of the Console Emulation module by putting it at the beginning of the chain: with this configuration you can use the summing circuit effects to create harmonics for your next processors. This is a creative use and it is not intended to simulate how a real console behaves."
 
 
Any comments?

HarBal "air effect" ?

sharke


I can definitely hear the difference through my Grado headphones - more so on my own tracks than on the video of course. I don't consider my ears to be very well trained at all, and sometimes have a lot of trouble hearing subtle effects like compression. Yet I can hear the CE. It adds a little more presence, especially in the high end. 

With regard to placement in the PC, I mentioned in another post that the CE seems to add quite a lot of extra frequencies in the low to mid region as well. You can see this if you put a strong high pass filter on a track so that only the highest frequencies are coming through, then put the console emulation AFTER the EQ. With the CE turned off, there are no low frequencies at all. Turned on, you can see exactly where the CE is adding frequencies and how much, by looking at a frequency analyzer. The different types of CE behave differently - the S-Type seems only to add very low frequencies, whereas the other two add frequencies all the way into the mids. 

What this means is, if you're using a high pass filter to control mud in your track, then the console emulation is going to add some of the frequencies that the filter has removed. So if you use HPF's to this end and you don't want any new lows added, you might consider putting an EQ with a HPF after the console emulation on the track. 

Sharke you raise some important points and something that needs to be clarified. I definitely hear a difference when I use console emulation on my own music. I have run a few tests already when I first got X2. I got to run more tests.


I just don't hear the same thing in the video. I can not detect the difference in the video at all. Maybe You Tube is doing something to it. At least that is my guess. I do hear it when I insert it on my projects and use it myself. It is subtle. 

"The only "authoritative" source I've come across to put it first is the manual" How's this for a Authoritative Source: The Developer: I'm going to answer your questions from our DSP development perspective which is not related to the parameter naming. The Console Emulator module emulates the summing circuitry of the mix bus. Its natural position is at the end of the chain (last module in the channel) because in a real console the summing happens after all the channel processing. The Trim control is not related to the "Input Trim" control of a real mixer; it is something which controls the amount of these "summing effects". The Console Emulator module is not a channel strip plugin; it only simulates the mix bus summing effects. It also has a Drive control in case you do not have any preamp simulation modules and you want to boost the channel gain and increase the amount of nonlinear processing. This is more like to the "Input Gain" control on the preamp of a real mixer. You can also experiment some creative use of the Console Emulation module by putting it at the beginning of the chain: with this configuration you can use the summing circuit effects to create harmonics for your next processors. This is a creative use and it is not intended to simulate how a real console behaves. Best Regards, Thomas Serafini DSP Developer - Overloud

Marcus Curtis

sharke


I can definitely hear the difference through my Grado headphones - more so on my own tracks than on the video of course. I don't consider my ears to be very well trained at all, and sometimes have a lot of trouble hearing subtle effects like compression. Yet I can hear the CE. It adds a little more presence, especially in the high end. 

With regard to placement in the PC, I mentioned in another post that the CE seems to add quite a lot of extra frequencies in the low to mid region as well. You can see this if you put a strong high pass filter on a track so that only the highest frequencies are coming through, then put the console emulation AFTER the EQ. With the CE turned off, there are no low frequencies at all. Turned on, you can see exactly where the CE is adding frequencies and how much, by looking at a frequency analyzer. The different types of CE behave differently - the S-Type seems only to add very low frequencies, whereas the other two add frequencies all the way into the mids. 

What this means is, if you're using a high pass filter to control mud in your track, then the console emulation is going to add some of the frequencies that the filter has removed. So if you use HPF's to this end and you don't want any new lows added, you might consider putting an EQ with a HPF after the console emulation on the track. 

Sharke you raise some important points and something that needs to be clarified. I definitely hear a difference when I use console emulation on my own music. I have run a few tests already when I first got X2. I got to run more tests.


I just don't hear the same thing in the video. I can not detect the difference in the video at all. Maybe You Tube is doing something to it. At least that is my guess. I do hear it when I insert it on my projects and use it myself. It is subtle. 

Your post sums up what I'm experiencing as well. In the video I "did" hear the difference but not in a way that would have me reaching for my wallet to purchase a vst to get that sound. However, I think a lot might have been lost in the youtube video. I hear a very nice difference that would have me reaching for my wallet for working inside of X2 here. The sound is so good, I could see people "on the fence" leaving other daws just to have this sound available in such a convenient way. It's a deal maker imo.

pdarg


Okay - we have the official word from the developer; put the CE plugs on last.

Cakewalk: please note this and change your manual.

As I've said for some time, Brandon and Seth used it last in the Webinar, and I was told by someone on here that they didn't know what they were talking about..
 
I pointed out that all the ProChannel presets had it on last - ditto..
 
When the Overloud email came to light, I've had comments where people misunderstood it, and took it to mean it didn't matter where you put it, or Overload were just covering themselves.
 
I'm not commenting on how good or bad it is, but just looking for how to us it best.
 
I've found it is best first on tracks.  On Master bus, I use it before CL.
 
There are lots of things that I'm not sure of, such as why you need to drive it so much to make a difference when, as Danny pointed out in another thread, you can hear the difference on a single track of a large format desk in the real world.
 
Ho hum, off to bed now..

Bristol_Jonesey


The only way I get a noticeable difference is by really cranking up the gain/drive - and that (for me) sort of defeats the whole purpose.

That's pretty much where I am but I've been led to believe that the effect is cumulative so listening back to single tracks isn't going to reveal much but an instance on all tracks and busses makes a bigger difference to the resulting mix.

xxxsoundxxx


That was one reply from one developer. I wonder if you had all of Overloud in one room if they would agree with the statements. I agree what sounds best rules,but I was also on a quest to finding out "how you are supposed to use it". I take classes in Modren Arnis and there also I learn how to do things "by the book" before I put my own spin on things. I was counting on Overloud to inform me of proper technique. JB if you are referring to me I never said they didn't know what they were talking about I said they may not have researched it in full.I still stand by that. I declare they would smoke me at this program and I bow to that.

I believe you said "I'll bet Seth and Brandon never gave it a second of thought & just used whatever it pulled up.(trusted it was automatically correctly placed) I have experienced "product engineers" that knew less about their product than I figured out in 15 min. so I don't take things for granted." 

John


Its one thing to question the wisdom of placing an FX in a particular spot but its quite another to question two of the most helpful and competent members of the CW team. 

Further from my viewing they knew exactly what they were doing.

+1

Yes I did say: "I'll bet Seth and Brandon never gave it a second of thought & just used whatever it pulled up.(trusted it was automatically correctly placed) I have experienced "product engineers" that knew less about their product than I figured out in 15 min. so I don't take things for granted." Are you saying they researched it more thoroughly than anyone could before implementing the CE? Did they contact/have conversations with the developers? Research console emulation programs? If so why does the company they represent give opposite information? I'm not questioning their wisdom,I'm saying they are not perfect and may not have researched everything they do 100%. Also I can give many instances when product engineers don't know their product as well as some consumers. Recent one for instance, After I bought the Andy johns Drum kit for SD3 I contacted platinum samples. Their "Product Engineer" said they don't make anything for session drummer. He stood by that untill I sent him their web page advertising it.