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jinga8
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/14 18:11:30 (permalink)
Less functions feels amputated.

I don't disagree that this is your opinion. To me, I don't rely on MIDI as much as real instruments, so as for editing, I feel like I have 5 arms and 7 legs with all the options open to me including mfx, cal, PRV, and the one I use most, event view...but I guess we just have differing MOs...cool man...
pipelineaudio
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/14 20:43:27 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: xackley

i thought this thread needed a bump
What's with all the wasted space at the top of Reaper.



LOL, because the coder doesnt need five billion toolbars to do what one mouse tool can easily do

Team Noisegate Thug
pipelineaudio
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/14 20:45:29 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Howdy

Now we're getting somewhere. Reaper's UI sucks so bad it doesn't matter how well it does anything. It's not just the look of the buttons, which are atrocious. It's the oversized meters, the hidden fx, the overly-large fx window around a synth's UI. The MIDI editor. You could spend the next five years begging for a better UI, and you won't get it, because the mentality surrounding Reaper is that UI is unimportant. (Didn't Cakewalk users recently get accused of being myopic?)



Yeah you know, the mastering lab called me the other day. They said "hey, your customers in here were complaining that the UI really sucked in that song you just mixed. We tried all the tools at our lab here and man we cant undo the sound that UI imparted on it"

Team Noisegate Thug
manthe
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/14 21:05:32 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: pipelineaudio

ORIGINAL: Howdy

Now we're getting somewhere. Reaper's UI sucks so bad it doesn't matter how well it does anything. It's not just the look of the buttons, which are atrocious. It's the oversized meters, the hidden fx, the overly-large fx window around a synth's UI. The MIDI editor. You could spend the next five years begging for a better UI, and you won't get it, because the mentality surrounding Reaper is that UI is unimportant. (Didn't Cakewalk users recently get accused of being myopic?)



Yeah you know, the mastering lab called me the other day. They said "hey, your customers in here were complaining that the UI really sucked in that song you just mixed. We tried all the tools at our lab here and man we cant undo the sound that UI imparted on it"


The mastering lab called me the other day and said, "hey, we have 2 applications here that are both capable of doing the same things. One of them is ugly and un-thoughtfully laid out, and the other one looks MUCH better and is far more pleasant to work with for hours and hours and hours and HOURS. Which one do YOU, the person doing the hundreds of hours worth of work, want to use?"

-manthe

Moonface Studio | Records | Publishing

http://www.moonfacerecords.com

Equipment List - http://moonfacerecords.com/Moonface/Studio_Gear.html
xackley
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/14 21:11:40 (permalink)
so the coder can't figure out how to narrow it down to a single row. Just how much room does it a reaper user require have the hand drag a time line. Sure it should be expanded. That track and clip realestate does eat up more than it's share of space in most sequencers, so ya, I can see the reasoning.


Edit, and ya, memorizing hotkeys is a good way to eliminate all those pesky buttons. I really miss Word Perfect for DOS, it was a shame how Windows and the Mouse simplified applicaation usage.
post edited by xackley - 2007/02/14 21:36:17
kab
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/14 21:19:45 (permalink)
"The mastering lab called me the other day and said, "hey, we have 2 applications here that are both capable of doing the same things. One of them is ugly and un-thoughtfully laid out, and the other one looks MUCH better and is far more pleasant to work with for hours and hours and hours and HOURS. Which one do YOU, the person doing the hundreds of hours worth of work, want to use?"


The mastering lab called me the other day and said, "hey, we have 2 applications here that are both capable of doing the same things, although one of them, we must admit, can actually do true sidechaining, however important that may or may not be to you..both have their own layout, and frankly, whichever one suits how you work will probably be the one you end up preferring, just like any other app on the planet. So which do you want to use?"



micromusic
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/14 21:58:42 (permalink)
Pro Tools!
nachivnik
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/14 22:38:43 (permalink)
LOL

The mastering lab called the other day and said, "The deadline's tomorrow! Where is the project we're supposed to master?"

"I'm sorry, I got stuck trying to do my work in an unintuitive UI and it took me way too long to get my project finished."

Beauty is a small part of the picture.

But, if it works for you, more power to you. In fact, if enough Reaper users are satisfied with it, it only reaffirms the probability that it won't change, and since I don't like the UI, I won't ever like using Reaper. I'm not really interested in fighting that battle.

This thread though, this is pretty good amusement.

ORIGINAL: pipelineaudio

ORIGINAL: Howdy

Now we're getting somewhere. Reaper's UI sucks so bad it doesn't matter how well it does anything. It's not just the look of the buttons, which are atrocious. It's the oversized meters, the hidden fx, the overly-large fx window around a synth's UI. The MIDI editor. You could spend the next five years begging for a better UI, and you won't get it, because the mentality surrounding Reaper is that UI is unimportant. (Didn't Cakewalk users recently get accused of being myopic?)



Yeah you know, the mastering lab called me the other day. They said "hey, your customers in here were complaining that the UI really sucked in that song you just mixed. We tried all the tools at our lab here and man we cant undo the sound that UI imparted on it"

nachivnik
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/14 22:40:42 (permalink)
Cool! Cubase/Nuendo and a standalone hardware recorder and I think we've got 'em all!

ORIGINAL: micromusic

Pro Tools!

manthe
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/14 22:58:02 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Howdy

Cool! Cubase/Nuendo and a standalone hardware recorder and I think we've got 'em all!

ORIGINAL: micromusic

Pro Tools!




Uh...Samplitude, of course!

-manthe

Moonface Studio | Records | Publishing

http://www.moonfacerecords.com

Equipment List - http://moonfacerecords.com/Moonface/Studio_Gear.html
pipelineaudio
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/14 23:16:59 (permalink)
now how can you call THIS ugly

http://stashbox.org/12213/107114211327-My-Desktop.png

soooooooo uncluttered and nice

Team Noisegate Thug
xackley
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/14 23:26:28 (permalink)
I am sorry you cannot figure out how to configure your sonar environment. I would recommend selecting a simpler application that offers you fewer options.

Van Gogh, seeing more that a vase of flowers.
http://www.vggallery.com
Newer Song "River", let me know if you don't like it.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=162668
Vertigo50
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 02:01:34 (permalink)
The mastering lab called the other day and said, "Stop using us as an example for everything! We didn't say any of those things!!!"

p8ddy
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 06:01:06 (permalink)


If you look to the left you'll see how long I've been a member at this forum and how many posts I have posted, just like I can look to the left and see that you've posted 6 times in this forum and joined 2 days ago. Sorry, for jumping to a conclusion after monitoring this forum after many years of how things generally go in this forum. I know I probably shouldn't make generalizations like that.....maybe I can get a better feel about users in this forum like you after being a member for 2 days huh?

Yeah....that makes sense. When losing an argument hands down resort to argumentum ad hominum. If you can't beat them on facts trot out the tired old "You've only been here two days" line. Because that has validity. Um...right....so I clearly have no idea because I only have six posts.

Has it ever occured to you that A. I could be a long time lurker brought out of the woodwork by this discussion or by another specific reason? or, B. That I used to post under a different name and decided to use a new pseudonym? There you go, it's that old closed minded "I know everything" omnipotency syndrome shining hrough in you again.

Lets argue on facts/specifics rather than "Dude, my dad is totally a better fighter than your dad, and would kick his ASS!". Think you can manage that?

ORIGINAL: Rednroll

Yep, you've definately missed that since I probably haven't posted in this forum for over 6 months and since you've only been a member for 2 days....well you do the math. My days of respect for members in this forum are over.....been there...done that......didn't work.



I wasn't referring to your boasting in this forum. I was referring to you boasting on the reaper forum about annoying people on this one. Can you deny that?

I really can't imagine why people react spectaculary badly to you. I mean, your self effacing, so polite.



ORIGINAL: Rednroll

No again, you fail to understand the writing that I typed before you.....otherwise, you would be able to understand that what you just wrote was exactly what I had explained about a large majority of users having closed minded communication about feature discussions in this forum, and I used rewire device as just one "example". Just like midi input quantize was an "example". Discussions on these "types" of topics generally bring a lot of unnecessary heated discussions since certain regular individuals in this forum don't see the need for them. Maybe if you would have been a member longer that 2 days in this forum, you would have some idea what I'm referring too....I suggest using the forum search feature and bring yourself up to speed if you really want to contribute in this discussion and actually bring something of that sounds like it has some mass behind it.


If you would type in clear concise English rather than obfuscating your every point I might understand better, but I digress...

For starters, midi input quantise has been included as a new feature in 6.2 - a free upgrade from 6. So apparently the Cakewalk dev team do listen. Equally other feature requests bring heated discussions becuse not all people can see the need for some functions and want to balance features with stability, ease of use and an uncluttered UI. It's not a sin to debate robustly what is required. It simply demonstrates that there are a number of opinions as how best to drive the Cakewalk Sonar appliction development.

You are still advocating a "I want this feature, ergo it should be included". I'm sorry, that doesn't make good software development, and would lead to the painful demise of the Sonar as a viable, professional tool.

ORIGINAL: Rednroll

LOL!!! I really can't believe you put all that in the same paragraph. Are you really that dumb??? Read what you just said....at least ten times and MAYBE you'll be able to see the irony in it. You probably won't see your own irony so let me spell it out for you. You're telling me that Cakewalk would appear to be getting it right due to their "market position".

<Uhhhh??? One brief interuption before I continue.....weren't you the one who accused me of pulling ficticious numbers out of thin air??? Hmmm??? Is the Pot or the Kettle black???>

Sorry...back to the point. so Cakewalk would appear to be getting it right due to their market share, but Microsoft Windows on the other hand is a huge piece of bloatware????.....Hey!!! I agree with that last statement....but doesn't MS also have the largest market share for an OS???? So by your own previous brilliant deduction about Sonar....you can say the same thing about Microsoft, that they must also be getting it right. I'm sure you must be one heck of a software developer.....usually you need to have step by step logical thinking in that type of work....but I can tell logic is definately out the window from what I'm reading from you. No wonder you think software needs a lot of internal testing before it hits the market....I'm sure something coming from you with that type of logical thought process would need a few software validation departments working full-time for each line of code you wrote.


Argumentum ad hominem. If you could stop the personal attacks for one second and actually read through my post rather than, as you're so fond of putting it, "bullet pointing" my opinions you might get a truer picture.

Where did I mention Windows being bloatware? Please quote me specifically. You jumped to a conclusion, and a wrong one. Windows does a lot of things well, and got a lot of stuff right that other OS's didn't. Installation routines for instance. Graphics and GUI for instance. Windows is successful because it made using an OS in the house, on cheap hardware possible. And more than that, it made it easy. "Unstable bloatware" referred too Internet Explorer (who'd have thought, given I only mentioned it by name!!!). A product that was succesful only by dint of illegal activity and lack of competition (as can be easy seen by the success of the "new wave" of browsers like Firefox which sees IE losing users at a spectacular rate). DOn't feel the need to apologise for having your blinkers on though, you jump to so many half baked conclusions that if you were to start apologising, you wouldn't finish until sometime next week.

Let me make it eay for you, I'll bullet point my own opinons, that way you might grasp them rather better.

Cakewalk must be doing something right as it's *adding* market share, and now being viewed as a serious alternative to Cubase as opposed to an off the wll one.

Cakewalk must be doing something right as the vast majority of users seem happy with it - which stands true if the users on this forum are even vaguely representative of the installed user base.

Internet explorer is unreliable bloatware. It's junk. It's prone to serious bugs and privacy leaks.

ORIGINAL: Rednroll

Please point me to a Cakewalk release that have ever met those goals. Sonar stable and well thought out??? Show me one release of Sonar that has not had at least 2 update release patches due to bug fixes. The proof is in the pudding as they say, so what you're saying you want is definately not Sonar, and Sonar has a track record of not being what you described.


Update patches are not a sign of inherant instability. You clearly have no idea of software development lifecycles or indeed testing. Cars have warranties, right? Does that mean they are all junk straight from the factory? What I can say is this - I have never had an install of Sonar that has been anything less than rock solid stable. Have there been some bugs? Yes. Showstoppers? (blue screens, crashes etc) No. My work has never been interupted by a Sonar bug. I can say that 100% honestly. You may have had a different experience, but I can only go by my own.

However, if you want to play the "releases as indicator of buggy unreliable software" game, I'm happy to indulge you, because you're going to be hoist by your own petard.

Sonar 6 has had two dot releases in 4 months for bug fixes.

Reaper has had.....wait for it.... TEN! In the last two weeks! You heard it right Rednroll....10 releases in the last two weeks to bug fix. And this includes a fix for a application crash btw. So much for your stable software and clean codebase!

Wait....can I hear my cat laughing?

Seriously, does this mean that Reaper is unreliable junk? And if not, why not given your two bug fix patches = trash software remarks?


ORIGINAL: Rednroll

Hey...Reaper is a DAW....it doesn't have any non-Daw functioning features. Get it??? That's the focus of the program of being a complete DAW with a simple user interface. Isn't that what we all want??? I know...you like the pretty colors in Sonar...there's nothing wrong with that. You again, make no valid point, unless you're saying I'm asking for a word processor in my DAW then you might be coming close to making a point....the last I checked all the features I have ever suggested for Sonar or Reaper have been used in other music and audio creating software packages....oh yeah, that's what DAW stands for...DIGITAL AUDIO WORKSTATION....thus I guess I would be talking about workflow items used when working with Digital audio.


So, what you are saying is : Sonar has a complex UI despite not offering a complete feature set, yet Reaper has a simple UI yet offereing every feature known to man? Is that right? The thing is, once again you fail to understand that UI, workflow and ease of use are subjective. Likewise features. Each app offers it's own interpretation of what is really important and what is not. hence the differing feature sets. I have offered no criticism of Reaper at any point.

You do seem to be taking this terribly personally though. I thought it was us Sonar users that were the sensitive souls and could brooke no dissent?

What I am saying, if you would read my post properly (or at all by the looks of it) is that you infer that every single feature request is included in the software. That Reaper is the be all and end all. I say that position is patently false. And if it's not, you'll be doing exaclty as I say because whilst you might not want the features I mentioned someone else will. And ultimately, you'll get them! Why becuase by your account Reaper is the whore of DAWs The development team will do anything to keep you on board.

BTW, in addition liking nice colours, I also like CC editing and having the ability to freeze tracks. Wait....Reaper doesn't have those! What??? The most bestest fattest assed golden underwearing uber DAWof all time misses out on such fundametals whilst us proles using Sonar have them? Shurely shome mishtake...

I also noticed that the bug reports forum is pretty busy over at Reaper towers.


ORIGINAL: Rednroll

Well luckily for me Reaper has not fallen into that pitfall that you have grown accustom to. This is what sets Reaper apart from the crowd. That was the original design intent of Reaper, to be able to do everything that every other DAW could and then some yet while maintaining a simple and elegant user interface. I can obviously tell from your statements that you've never spent any time with Reaper or the developers, otherwise you wouldn't be spouting a bunch of non-sense and would realize Reaper is on target with the main focus of it's development. I've used Sonar quite a bit....I can't say it has the same type of focus. It started off as a midi sequencer...now it does audio...yet it's midi feature capabilities still fall short of midi sequencers from 8 years back. That doesn't sound like a well focused app, if I run with the same reasoning you seem to be.


Nonsense doesn't have a hyphen btw. If we're going to be petty, we might as well be really petty, huh? What statements? The ones like "I've never used Reaper but can see from the screen shots..."? Sherlock Holmes has nothing on you, my man.

Can't you see the double standard? "Sonar lacks focus because it has too many features. Reaper is uber focused because it has even more features". That doesn't add up.

Sonar started as a midi only sequencer? Really? Sonar version 1 didn't do audio? Because if you count Cakeawlk Pro Audio as early version of Sonar then I'm counting WinAmp as an early version of Reaper - and it didn't allow midi or audio editing. If you want to go down an insane argument route I'll play along. Citing the old companys (twelve tone) old software (Pro Audio) as evidence of lack of focus is plain stupid. Sonar has followed a logical and sensible upgrade cycle, maturing nicely thank you.

I'll offer you a piece of advice that was offered to me a while back - If you're giong to be a smart ass, you need to be smart as well as an ass.

/p
p8ddy
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 06:07:45 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: yarimurray

I've made a significant investment in SONAR as I mentioned in a previous post and I have no intention of abandoning it anytime soon. However, there may be times when Reaper is the better tool to use to meet my needs. And if that is the case I'll use Reaper without giving it a second thought. That goes for any other products that may come along. The "either/or" attitude is too limiting to me. I prefer a "both/and" attitude.

Michael


I agree. Software monogamy is very limiting. Personally I'll use whatever tools I can to complete a job. I could do most of the stuff I do in ableton in Sonar, but Ableton for certain things is a lot more liberating. Likewise with Reaper - I'll try it, and if it's useful for something I'll use it. Not at the expense of Sonar, but to compliment it.

I know some people who want to stck with one thing, but if you have a choice, why not try it? I came to appreciate Sonar so much through using competitors and hating them. Equally, I know that certain other tools can give me a different slant on stuff and make my life more enjoyable.

To be honest, the main thing against Reaper is the attitude on here of some of the users evangelising and being obnoxious. (I'm not referring to you btw!)

/p

John
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 06:23:33 (permalink)
What you hear in the background is applause.

Nice work P8ddy for the above two posts.

But is it really worth your time?

Best
John
p8ddy
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 06:30:58 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: John

What you hear in the background is applause.

Nice work P8ddy for the above two posts.

But is it really worth your time?

Best
John


I can't help it! With every character I type my every sinew shouts "ignore the troll", but I still type.

I think Sonar might be my "precious"....
manthe
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 07:39:29 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: p8ddy

ORIGINAL: John

What you hear in the background is applause.

Nice work P8ddy for the above two posts.

But is it really worth your time?

Best
John


I can't help it! With every character I type my every sinew shouts "ignore the troll", but I still type.

I think Sonar might be my "precious"....


Yeah, but its almost no fun....Like George arguing with Lenny

-manthe

Moonface Studio | Records | Publishing

http://www.moonfacerecords.com

Equipment List - http://moonfacerecords.com/Moonface/Studio_Gear.html
Rednroll
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 08:32:28 (permalink)
I wasn't referring to your boasting in this forum. I was referring to you boasting on the reaper forum about annoying people on this one. Can you deny that?


Hmmmm??? I remember reading thru a thread at the Reaper forum, which had a link posted to this thread. I don't recall myself ever bosting about annoying people in this forum or even replying to that post. Maybe you can refer me to a link, where I specifically was doing this?? So at this point...yes, I can deny that. Maybe, I said something in the past that slipped my mind???

Yep, might have had 10 updates in the last week. I'm not sure they where all bug fixes. Maybe you're missing the fact that Reaper has a faster development cycle than any other audio software out there, since features are added daily and sometimes hourly. I suppose you could view that as a negative, but I'll take that when you're able to have an actual discussion with the developer about a desired feature and he delivers it to you within a week and it exceeds your expectations. Tell me when Cakewalk has been able to deliver anything like that for you. Oh yeah, people have only been in this forum screaming for midi input quantize since when???? Oh, and you're gonna say Cakewalk listens when they FINALLY put it in a v6.2 update? LOL!!! That is laughable and I'm sure everyone else in this forum that has been asking for that particular feature would be laughing at it also.

FYI, I wasn't referring to Twelve tones anywhere. I was referring to "Cakewalk"...or are you gonna tell me that the Cakewalk v5.0 I purchased is not a version of Sonar?....where's my "Cakewalk v10.0 pro Audio then???? Oh...changing an apps user interface and name constitutes as new app now??? You are brilliant.......It's pretty difficult to put anything past you isn't it? A marketing move constitutes a new app developed from the ground up....LOL!!!! You're pathetic.

Nonsense doesn't have a hyphen btw. If we're going to be petty, we might as well be really petty, huh?


Oh good one, so now you're gonna go after grammatical and spelling errors. You better go back and do a little more proof reading of your own posts.


your self effacing,
Quantise
because you're going to be hoist by your own petard.
offereing
most bestest
Cakeawlk
fundametals

Have there been some bugs? Yes. Showstoppers? (blue screens, crashes etc) No. My work has never been interupted by a Sonar bug. I can say that 100% honestly. You may have had a different experience, but I can only go by my own.


Well, it seems that you need to read the topic of this thread. With all those prolific reading and spelling skills of yours, you somehow missed the entire subject of the original post and what this thread was about. Oh yeah...that's right you where too busy trying to attack me that you missed the entire point of this thread. Nice.....try to stay on topic next time and you might actually show some credibility.

And this includes a fix for a application crash btw. So much for your stable software and clean codebase!


Yeah, you're right Reaper must not have a clean codebase, seeing it's only a 2mB download, it should be more like Sonar now...where's its size at 60, 70, 80, 90mB??? Updates come in the 20mB size??? I guess there's a lot of code functions in there for all those bug fixes huh? That seems like a much cleaner codebase than I'm sure Reaper ever has and Reaper already has most of the functions that Sonar has. Or does that track freeze feature take a lot of code that I don't know about? FYI, Reaper has had a Track consolidate feature since it's first week of being available that can work in the same manor as a track Freeze function. I guess, you need a track freeze function in Sonar since it doesn't run very effeciently like Reaper which in most cases plays back large projects with only a 2% CPU load. I'm sure that might have something to do with the original post which mentioned that Sonar burps and studders. It's ok...PC's keep getting faster and faster, so there's no need for Sonar to be a more code effecient program, they call just update their minimum system requirements for you and tell you to purchase a new PC....or you need to follow the replies in this thread, where the advice is that you really need to "tweak" your system for Sonar to run smoothly. Oh, that's definately a sure sign of a clean codebase and effecient program huh?....<cough..cough> Bloat!!!

Wait....can I hear my cat laughing?

yes, you can. He's laughing at you pontifying how Sonar is so solid and runs smoothly and is stable with a clean codebase, while stating Reaper is the opposite, while the original message in this thread was how Reaper ran smoothly yet Sonar didn't on the same system. You definately know how to back up your points with facts.....Sorry, I just can't keep up with those facts you keep posting.

Where did I mention Windows being bloatware? Please quote me specifically. You jumped to a conclusion, and a wrong one. Windows does a lot of things well, and got a lot of stuff right that other OS's didn't. Installation routines for instance. Graphics and GUI for instance. Windows is successful because it made using an OS in the house, on cheap hardware possible. And more than that, it made it easy. "Unstable bloatware" referred too Internet Explorer (who'd have thought, given I only mentioned it by name!!!). A product that was succesful only by dint of illegal activity and lack of competition (as can be easy seen by the success of the "new wave" of browsers like Firefox which sees IE losing users at a spectacular rate). DOn't feel the need to apologise for having your blinkers on though, you jump to so many half baked conclusions that if you were to start apologising, you wouldn't finish until sometime next week.


Oh....my mistake...I guess you're too ignorant like I originally stated about a large chunk of Sonar users. Because, the same point I was making still applies in that you said Sonar must be doing the right thing because of it's market share....which btw is still well below Pro Tools. Well, IE still has the market share for explorers also, so the same point still implies, that your statement is ignorantly ironic.

(as can be easy seen by the success of the "new wave" of browsers like Firefox which sees IE losing users at a spectacular rate)


Again another ironic statement, since a large chunk of Sonar users are now Reaper users and have stated many times in the Reaper forums how great they feel Reaper is compared to Sonar and how it runs much smoother on their system. I can post you a few links if you would like to read some of the statements from Sonar users and potential Sonar users who tried out both Sonar and Reaper before deciding on Reaper. So, I bet I'll expect to see you more over in the Reaper forums in the future once all the rest of the Sonar users migrate over. I expect that the ignorant strong headed bunch over here to be the last ones to finally wake up. So, we can continue this interesting discussion in the near future. Make sure you remind me at that time of who you are again, since you'll probably be changing your username again or just be lurking in the shadows right?

Peace out, talk to ya soon

Cheers,
Red


Dave Modisette
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 09:00:58 (permalink)
now how can you call THIS ugly

http://stashbox.org/12213/107114211327-My-Desktop.png

soooooooo uncluttered and nice

I would just say that its a very unclutter ugly interface. ;)
post edited by Mod Bod - 2007/02/15 09:23:18

Dave Modisette ... rocks a Purrrfect Audio Studio Pro rig.

http://www.gatortraks.com 
My music.
... And of course, the Facebook page. 
John
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 09:36:30 (permalink)
are you gonna tell me that the Cakewalk v5.0 I purchased is not a version of Sonar?

No it ain't . Sorry about that.

Best
John
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 10:13:45 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Mod Bod

now how can you call THIS ugly

http://stashbox.org/12213/107114211327-My-Desktop.png

soooooooo uncluttered and nice

I would just say that its a very unclutter ugly interface. ;)


Remind me not to have you setup a blind date for me, because I tend to agree with Dave on this one. ;)


Regards, JD...
movado242
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 10:23:01 (permalink)
i started out on Pro Tools Free and a Soundblaster audio card, moved to Sonar and a Motu, if something better comes along I'll try that..what Im really waiting for is a serious competitor to the 800lb gorilla called Microsoft....lol (besides Linux and Mac...lol)
jinga8
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 10:37:03 (permalink)
besides linux??? BESIDES LINUX!?!?!? oh...ok, besides linux....
p8ddy
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 11:30:14 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Rednroll

Hmmmm??? I remember reading thru a thread at the Reaper forum, which had a link posted to this thread. I don't recall myself ever bosting about annoying people in this forum or even replying to that post. Maybe you can refer me to a link, where I specifically was doing this?? So at this point...yes, I can deny that. Maybe, I said something in the past that slipped my mind???


I can't post a link any more, because you deleted your input to that thread. It doesn't change the material fact that I viewed said thread and your comments. In a way I find that action even more amusing than having to post a link.

ORIGINAL: Rednroll

Yep, might have had 10 updates in the last week. I'm not sure they where all bug fixes. Maybe you're missing the fact that Reaper has a faster development cycle than any other audio software out there, since features are added daily and sometimes hourly. I suppose you could view that as a negative, but I'll take that when you're able to have an actual discussion with the developer about a desired feature and he delivers it to you within a week and it exceeds your expectations. Tell me when Cakewalk has been able to deliver anything like that for you. Oh yeah, people have only been in this forum screaming for midi input quantize since when???? Oh, and you're gonna say Cakewalk listens when they FINALLY put it in a v6.2 update? LOL!!! That is laughable and I'm sure everyone else in this forum that has been asking for that particular feature would be laughing at it also.


There is no might about it. However, as your unsure of whether there were any bug fixes, here are a small selection.

REAPER v1.803 - February 14 2007. -
# vis plugin config fixes

REAPER v1.802 - February 13 2007 -
# fixed updating of track routing windows on play/stop
# fixed ctrl+drag in midi editor

REAPER v1.801 - February 12 2007 -
# fixed load template browse dialog title
# fixed deleting of tracks that are routed to causing crashing on some SMP systems

REAPER v1.800 - February 11 2007 -
# fixed ReaMote FX selection box during dialog resizing
# update 8pm PDT: fixed a new pre-fx send bug

REAPER v1.79 - February 7 2007
# autosplit: fixed bug when using track fx (VST track fx that want midi events)

REAPER v1.78 - February 6 2007
# update 5pm PDT: fixed rendering
# better thread locking code, rme fixes

REAPER v1.77 - February 4 2007
# big clock: fix for completely offscreen on startup

BTW - you must spend more time updating and reinstalling the software than actually working on tunes! I couldn't keep up with that particular release cycle. Nor would I want too.

For the record, this isn't a Reaper Vs Sonar debate as you seem to be trying to lead it down. I like Sonar, it's my prefered tool. I have nothing against the Reaper software or its developers. I do however have a problem with an intemperate, agressive and arrogant ignoramus who insults people on other forums.

When invited into other peoples houses, do you wipe your shoes on their couch whilst proclaims "Jeez man, you're fat!" - Because it's tantamount to what you are doing.

ORIGINAL: Rednroll

FYI, I wasn't referring to Twelve tones anywhere. I was referring to "Cakewalk"...or are you gonna tell me that the Cakewalk v5.0 I purchased is not a version of Sonar?....where's my "Cakewalk v10.0 pro Audio then???? Oh...changing an apps user interface and name constitutes as new app now??? You are brilliant.......It's pretty difficult to put anything past you isn't it? A marketing move constitutes a new app developed from the ground up....LOL!!!! You're pathetic.


Have you access to the code? Have you an inside track into the development? Because if not you are speculating wildly. You are inventing a scenario and assuming it's correct simply because you are confident you can't be proven wrong.

For the record, Cakewalk V5.0 isn't a version of Sonar. It's a legacy product from the company Cakewalk. It's not rocket science (luckilly for you). Next you'll be telling me that a Ford model T is in fact a Mustang. After all, they are both cars, and both from Ford. They must be the same right? They use metal and rubber don't they? Damn that pesky marketing blurb for trying to fool me!


ORIGINAL: Rednroll

Oh good one, so now you're gonna go after grammatical and spelling errors. You better go back and do a little more proof reading of your own posts.


To keep in with the pedantry - "hoist by your own petard" is correct. Quantise is English (UK) spelling, not the bastardized Americanisation. Soooooo....proof reading 101. And remember the "smart ass" advice. "most bestest" was a quote from a comedy show, although frankly it was less funny than your good self.

ORIGINAL: Rednroll

Well, it seems that you need to read the topic of this thread. With all those prolific reading and spelling skills of yours, you somehow missed the entire subject of the original post and what this thread was about. Oh yeah...that's right you where too busy trying to attack me that you missed the entire point of this thread. Nice.....try to stay on topic next time and you might actually show some credibility.


I didn't take issue with the original thread. If I had I would have addressed Cojomo directly. I took issue with your ill informed and rude tirades. Which is what I've taken you to task on. At no point have I turned this into a Sonar vs Reaper debate. I've simply challenged your assertions. You use incredible double standards and I'm going to point out each and every one. more to the point, if I have to continue this debate till I'm 744, bleieve me I will. Your continued abuse and narrowing of the scope of the discussion matters not a jot.

ORIGINAL: Rednroll

Yeah, you're right Reaper must not have a clean codebase, seeing it's only a 2mB download, it should be more like Sonar now...where's its size at 60, 70, 80, 90mB??? Updates come in the 20mB size??? I guess there's a lot of code functions in there for all those bug fixes huh? That seems like a much cleaner codebase than I'm sure Reaper ever has and Reaper already has most of the functions that Sonar has. Or does that track freeze feature take a lot of code that I don't know about? FYI, Reaper has had a Track consolidate feature since it's first week of being available that can work in the same manor as a track Freeze function. I guess, you need a track freeze function in Sonar since it doesn't run very effeciently like Reaper which in most cases plays back large projects with only a 2% CPU load. I'm sure that might have something to do with the original post which mentioned that Sonar burps and studders. It's ok...PC's keep getting faster and faster, so there's no need for Sonar to be a more code effecient program, they call just update their minimum system requirements for you and tell you to purchase a new PC....or you need to follow the replies in this thread, where the advice is that you really need to "tweak" your system for Sonar to run smoothly. Oh, that's definately a sure sign of a clean codebase and effecient program huh?....<cough..cough> Bloat!!!


What does size have to do with clean code? 10k, 10Mb, 1Tb, it makes no odds. The complexity of the program might increase, as might the abilty to quickly debug, but clean code does not equal small file size. As I said before, clearly you know nothing about software development. Please cease to comment on matters you are so ignorant on.

I'll give you an example of obfuscated code -

"#include <stdio.h>
main(t,_,a)char *a;{return!0<t?t<3?main(-79,-13,a+main(-87,1-_,
main(-86,0,a+1)+a)):1,t<_?main(t+1,_,a):3,main(-94,-27+t,a)&&t==2?_<13?
main(2,_+1,"%s %d %d\n"):9:16:t<0?t<-72?main(_,t,
"@n'+,#'/*{}w+/w#cdnr/+,{}r/*de}+,/*{*+,/w{%+,/w#q#n+,/#{l,+,/n{n+,/+#n+,/#\
;#q#n+,/+k#;*+,/'r :'d*'3,}{w+K w'K:'+}e#';dq#'l \
q#'+d'K#!/+k#;q#'r}eKK#}w'r}eKK{nl]'/#;#q#n'){)#}w'){){nl]'/+#n';d}rw' i;# \
){nl]!/n{n#'; r{#w'r nc{nl]'/#{l,+'K {rw' iK{;[{nl]'/w#q#n'wk nw' \
iwk{KK{nl]!/w{%'l##w#' i; :{nl]'/*{q#'ld;r'}{nlwb!/*de}'c \
;;{nl'-{}rw]'/+,}##'*}#nc,',#nw]'/+kd'+e}+;#'rdq#w! nr'/ ') }+}{rl#'{n' ')# \
}'+}##(!!/")
:t<-50?_==*a?putchar(31[a]):main(-65,_,a+1):main((*a=='/')+t,_,a+1)
:0<t?main(2,2,"%s"):*a=='/'||main(0,main(-61,*a,
"!ek;dc i@bK'(q)-[w]*%n+r3#l,{}:\nuwloca-O;m .vpbks,fxntdCeghiry"),a+1);}"

It's a few Kb in size, but hardly clean. Try maintaining that. And that is the key, code maintenance. When there is a release every day, it doesn't appear to me like there is a proper unit testing regimen, a proper user testing regimen or indeed beta testing. in effect - you are the guinea pig. The reason Reaper is shareware is because it doesn't have to conform to professional coding standards. Like I say, you are the guinea pig. The tester. It's not meant or intended to be robust enough to meet industry expectations. It's meant for home project studios where a bug or two make no odds. That's not a criticism of the product. $40 for a DAW is great value, and the software seems useable with a few features that are very cool - but lets be realistic here. Lets call a spade a spade.

Hint : <Rednroll to insert some gratuitous insult here>

"Yeah, well dude......Preacher...I mean Reaper kicks ass. And you're ugly man!" There you go, just delete the quotes, I did the hard work for you. I could code an insult generator for you if you like, you're getting that predictable.

ORIGINAL: Rednroll
yes, you can. He's laughing at you pontifying how Sonar is so solid and runs smoothly and is stable with a clean codebase, while stating Reaper is the opposite, while the original message in this thread was how Reaper ran smoothly yet Sonar didn't on the same system. You definately know how to back up your points with facts.....Sorry, I just can't keep up with those facts you keep posting.


"Pontifying"? What does that mean? Is Reaper so good that you have the power the invent new words to throw at me? I'll give you this though, when you finally post

"ping, iffle krurp eep smigle brurkakzazl" and the like I will be beaten. I can't compete with made up words. It's an interesting way to win an argument, and a very silly one - but if that's what you are intent on doing?

As I qualified earlier - Sonar has always been rock solid stable for me. Are you saying that I'm lying? What would be the point of that? Why would I lie? more to the point, why would I use software that was unstable? Why would I defend buggy rubbish software? It's like saying I would defend George Bush or Tony Blair! And please quote where exactly I said that Reaper was unstable? Please in fact quote anywhere that I've said anything negative about Reaper? My issue is with your evangelizing, your rudeness and your ignorance.

Note : Cojomo also posting about "spreading the Reaper word" on the Preacher/Reaper forum in regard to this thread. Something that other Reaper users chastized him for. So, did Cojomo really have issues? Or was it too lucky that his problems coincided with his wish to evangelize?

I'm software neutral. I'll use anything that works for me. I work in the industry and I know that blind loyalty to one product is pointless. It just cuts off opportunity to creativity. Why would I do that? I use a whole host of software.

Why do I like Sonar so much? The product is, and has been for year, rock solid stable. It's never once cost me a days work. The company are cool. They listen to users, accomodate us and price the software fairly. That's not to say however I'll pledge undying allegiance to it, or refuse to look at other software. I positively love finding new software.



ORIGINAL: Rednroll

Oh....my mistake...


Is that your way of making an apology? Are you admitting you got it wrong and jumped to the wrong conclusion to try and fit something to your own argument? Yes or no.


ORIGINAL: Rednroll

I guess you're too ignorant like I originally stated about a large chunk of Sonar users. Because, the same point I was making still applies in that you said Sonar must be doing the right thing because of it's market share....which btw is still well below Pro Tools. Well, IE still has the market share for explorers also, so the same point still implies, that your statement is ignorantly ironic.


I qualified my statement. Please read it again. Specifically the bot about MS using illegal tactics to grab market share. It's not the same point. No matter how many times to try and obfuscate the point. unless your IQ is in single digits you'll already know that.


(as can be easy seen by the success of the "new wave" of browsers like Firefox which sees IE losing users at a spectacular rate)


ORIGINAL: Rednroll
Again another ironic statement, since a large chunk of Sonar users are now Reaper users and have stated many times in the Reaper forums how great they feel Reaper is compared to Sonar and how it runs much smoother on their system. I can post you a few links if you would like to read some of the statements from Sonar users and potential Sonar users who tried out both Sonar and Reaper before deciding on Reaper. So, I bet I'll expect to see you more over in the Reaper forums in the future once all the rest of the Sonar users migrate over. I expect that the ignorant strong headed bunch over here to be the last ones to finally wake up. So, we can continue this interesting discussion in the near future. Make sure you remind me at that time of who you are again, since you'll probably be changing your username again or just be lurking in the shadows right?


What constitutes "a large chunk"? 10, 20, 7893? Come on, you must have access to fugures to make a statement like, so out with it! HOW MANY USERS HAVE SWITCHED? NUMBERS PLEASE!!! Please no more speculation, no more lies and obscure comments. Back your argument up with facts and figures. Or shut up.

You make the most insane leaps of logic based on nothing other than blind faith and zealotry. In fact, you're an idiot. I can't believe I'm wasting time on such a lame argument. What do you work as? Because it's not as a software developer or lawyer thats for sure! It's a miracle you can type and breathe at the same time! Really! did you get your mom to type this, and did she translate it from you writing in your own dribble? Sweet jesus - If you are representatlve of Preacher...sorry Reaper users, it must be a pretty simple program.

What are the instructions for recording with Preacher? "Mash the keyboard with your boxing glove to start recording"?

There is an old saying that given an infinite amount of time a room full of monkeys will write the entire works of William Shakespeare. On the other hand, your posts? 2 monkeys, 4 minutes.

I'm sorry for reducing this to argumentum ad hominem, but really your last post is beyond reason.

I'd also like to apologise to the other users of this forum for participating in (what I hope is at least a humerous) descent into some name calling, but I'm sure you can see the root of my frustration.

ORIGINAL: Rednroll
Peace out, talk to ya soon


Without a doubt my friend.

/p

post edited by p8ddy - 2007/02/15 12:02:51
MajorUrsa
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 11:31:30 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Rednroll

Yep, might have had 10 updates in the last week. I'm not sure they where all bug fixes. Maybe you're missing the fact that Reaper has a faster development cycle than any other audio software out there, since features are added daily and sometimes hourly. I suppose you could view that as a negative, but I'll take that when you're able to have an actual discussion with the developer about a desired feature and he delivers it to you within a week and it exceeds your expectations.



I can testify to that.

First look here and see that the release-notes hardly mention any bug-fixes, but nealy all improvements and added features.

Story: since I want to migrate a small (midi) project from Sonar to Reaper I had to move over the tracks with the midi-notes. First I discovered that I can not export a single midi-tracks from Sonar (why not?!). I can only save as... the whole project as .MID, which means that all tracks are superimposed with a separate channel each.
Then I found out that I can just drag the tracks one-by-one from Sonar to Reaper. Hadn't expected that to be possible, but it is and it saves a lot of trouble, although it's not very elegant and a bit error-prone.
Then, this morning I looked at the latest download and, I almost fell from my chair, it says "importing type-1 and type-2 midi files will optionally separate tracks". Wow, how's that for request cycle? I didn't even ask for it yet .

Listen people, I can understand the dev-cycle has to slow down once a product is industry standard, but not THAT slow. I never thought these features would be hard to implement, but it now seems it can be done in a day. A day, ok?

Ursa..

post edited by MajorUrsa - 2007/02/15 11:53:35
jinga8
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 11:36:28 (permalink)
Holy crap...I don't even have time to read these long-winded argumentative posts between meetings anymore...take it to IM boys...
MajorUrsa
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 11:41:56 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: p8ddy


There is no might about it. However, as your unsure of whether there were any bug fixes, here are a small selection.

REAPER v1.803 - February 14 2007. -
# vis plugin config fixes

etc................

BTW - you must spend more time updating and reinstalling the software than actually working on tunes! I couldn't keep up with that particular release cycle. Nor would I want too.



Haha, funny, you extracted the bugfixes only. Anyway, I like the amount of bugfixes too. Wish some other had the same frequency, bugs enough to fix.

BTW. updating is effortless, download is only 2M for the whole program (!) tales about 1 minute, running the installes about 5 secs. As it should be.

One reason for the test migration of a small midi-project is to compare the sizes of the project-files as well. I noticed that all of the midi of my testproject only amounts to 17K, while the project file for Sonar is around 900K. I wonder whats's in the other 883K.

Ursa..
post edited by MajorUrsa - 2007/02/15 12:03:33
John
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 11:59:59 (permalink)
May I ask a few simple questions? Why are you on this forum extolling the virtues of a competing program. Do you think it is right to advertise for a competitor here?

Do any of you care about how you look? Do you really think that the developer of the program you are advertising wants you to do this here?

I really don't care what answers you give I just want you to consider the questions.

Best
John
p8ddy
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RE: Tried Sonar demo but Reaper kills it 2007/02/15 12:01:06 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: MajorUrsa

First look here and see that the release-notes hardly mention any bug-fixes, but nealy all improvements and added features.


There are quite a few bug fixes in there - however, bug fixes are actually a good thing. It's unrealistic to expect any software not to have bugs (say p8ddy, covering his own back for when his bugs are discovered) :-)

That wasn't why I posted that.

I also think it's pointless getting into a "mines is bigger than yours" debate about software. Software products are made by humans, and people will place different values on different things. Equally, the standards for shareware are a lot lower than industrial grade. ISO standards for coding etc are a must in industry, to give you one example.

Again, no criticism of Reaper is meant or implied. Horses for courses. And all software will have some cool features that you'll miss on others. I guess it's one reason why we "settle" for a particular app. rather than continuing a search until we find perfection. There is no such thing. The best you can hope for is a number of apps that combined will give you what you want.

I have gripes about every piece of software I use. I have gripes about the software I code! But I adhere to specs, I listen to what the marketing guys demand and deliver on schedule, robust and concise code (for the most part). Sonar is far from perfect, but it's as close as I have come to being perfect for me.

ORIGINAL: MajorUrsa

Listen people, I can understand the dev-cycle has to slow down once a product is industry standard, but not THAT slow. I never thought these features would be hard to implement, but it now seems it can be done in a day. A day, ok?


As I say, when there are no rules you can do as you like as a developer. Releasing untested code into the wild would be suicide for Cakewalk. Look at the respective features of each and you'll see what Sonar takes longer. Look into the workplace practices at Cakewalk and you'll see why it takes longer.

The GIMP is updated far more than Photoshop. All that can be read into that is that it's updated more regularly. Nothing more. It certainly doesn't make it a better app and it doesn't make it cleaner code (And I know 'cos I was lead software engineer for one of them!). Sonar is updated about as often (maybe slightly more often) than Photoshop, which is a fair comparison in terms of competitors in the marketplace in different fields.

/p

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