OT: My gripe with Newbies

Hi-

It irritates me when people come here with no previous experience with DAW software and then complain about how hard it is to get started and how bad the documentation is, without spending any time at all with it.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm more than happy to help beginners, but if you're brand new to DAW software, start with Music Creator or Home Studio -- why jump feet first into the relatively much more expensive SONAR Producer (not even Studio) Edition?

And then why complain that it doesn't hold your hand through the basics?

And while I'm at it, assuming you might be in over your head with an "advanced" product when you've never gone through the basics, the very least you can do is go through the Tutorials before you whine that's it's all too hard & complicated. There's plenty of introductory material in the SONAR 5 Manual & Help file if you just take the time to read it.

All I'm saying is if you buy an expensive software package that you know nothing about, expect to spend a little time with the manual -- at least before you attack it for being inadequate.

Thanks-

-Susan

The computer music world lends itself towards a problem-solving, boot-strapping mentality. Too many people just want to be chauffered through the process. I agree.

I completely understand your frustration its been crazy lately. Remember schools are out and as usual kids are at play it happens every summer. Also there seems to be some confusion over Home Studio owners posting in the Sonar forum.

I support PCs for a living. I can assure you, most PC users won't even look at help file let alone read a manual. I started with Cakewalk 7. From my experience, Cakewalk has some of the best tutorials I've ever used. You newbies need to "RTFM". Stop wining, pissing and moaning. Go read…

DaveT

Hi Boogie-

Trying to start a 5-page OT debate doesn't help improve the S/N ratio around here. We were all newbies once. If we point these people in the right direction instead of being rude to them, it's possible that once they've gained some experience, they will pass on their knowledge to the next generation of newbies.

I wasn't trying to start anything, let alone a "5-page OT debate", and I don't think I've been rude to anyone. I hope not, anyway.

-Susan

ORIGINAL: Boogie

Sorry to say this Susan, but at least those posts are on-topic. Trying to start a 5-page OT debate doesn't help improve the S/N ratio around here. We were all newbies once. If we point these people in the right direction instead of being rude to them, it's possible that once they've gained some experience, they will pass on their knowledge to the next generation of newbies.

Gotta agree with you here Boogie and the reason is I was one of those people - I started with 8 and then 9 - Left the game for a while and thought I could jump back in at Sonar 4 - Big difference and a lot of renewing the mind - Check some of my past post and you will find many stupid questions that were covered in the manual that I had read extensively (along w/ Sonar Power & Ignite)

Sometimes speaking with another user paints a better picture - Some people have a better way with words than a manual and/or a book. It took a while, Lots and lots of reading and a lot of help from the good people here but I finally have my feet on the ground - Would have taken much longer without you're help!

As you probably know from past threads I have my own filter in place to weed out newbie questions like these. I skip the thread if the user has less than 20 - 30 posts.

With all due respect Dale - I have seen some pretty heady post by some people with less than 20 post conversley I have seen some blatantly ridiculous post by some people with 500+ post

Just an observation - YMMV

In reply to no one in particular!

I'm not suggesting that beginners shouldn't ask for or expect help here. What bugs me is when they say the manual is useless, or that they can't take the time to go through the Tutorials, or that they didn't find anything that pertained to their problem. Just give the documentation a shot, and then ask a question when you're stumped. Why not try that route?

-Susan

Attention Moderators: Please make a PRO forum (then all the newbies will post there)

More seriously, to echo DK and Boogie, we were all newbies once, and frankly, a lot of the blame belongs with cakewalk, if you're gonna go slinging blame. Faulting a company for trying to make money is like faulting a shark for eating fish, but take a look at the ads for this stuff. Nowhere does it say "for advanced users only," or "if you don't know what you're doing, steer clear." It's all "turn your PC into a professional recording studio today!" A lot of these kids (grownups, too) have never used anything more complex than a cassette recorder, maybe a four track.

And the fact is, that advertizing is pretty much correct, and when you buy Sonar, you bought the whole shebang. Often, the best way to deal with these newbies who want to skip the manual and just "look up" the part they want to know is to remind them that they didn't buy a jet ski, they bought a nuclear submarine, and chances are, the reason they forked out the dough is because they wanted the power and flexibility, and a genuine "pro studio" in a box.

Remember, when you watch MTV and see the studio engineer sitting there surrounded by thousands of faders, knobs, blinking lights, rackmount boxes, patchbays, cables, meters, etc, remember that that dude (or chick) knows off the top of his or her head pretty much what all of them are for and what they're all set to and why.

Barking Dog:
...But I will suggest the Sonar 5 manual isn't well written...

I pretty strongly disagree with this, but i can understand how a lot of beginners could feel that way in this age of "plug and play" everything. Barking Dog may have found a shortcoming when it comes to a rather obscure, application-specific sub-feature, but for the most part, Sonar's manual is among the best out there, in terms of clarity, comprehensiveness, readability, and searchability.

The thing is, you have to already understand a fair number of underlying concepts to make sense of any given section of the manual. Sonar is a vast and complex piece of kit. If you read the manual from beginning to end, it actually does an excellent job of providing a crash course in multitrack and computer audio, midi, signal routing, loops, sound sampling and synthesis, etc, as well as covering the program in great depth.

If you're starting from scratch, sonar can be a daunting experience, because it is pretty much capable of everything, including some very sophisticated audio routing and processing. It's not sonar, it's multitrack/digital/audio/midi itself that is often counter-intuitive. This is very easy-to-use software for expert-level users, but it is designed for stuff that requires a certain level of expertise in the first place.

My $.02, anyway.

Cheers.

The thing is, you have to already understand a fair number of underlying concepts to make sense of any given section of the manual. Sonar is a vast and complex piece of kit. If you read the manual from beginning to end, it actually does an excellent job of providing a crash course in multitrack and computer audio, midi, signal routing, loops, sound sampling and synthesis, etc, as well as covering the program in great depth.

And here is an obscure piece of trivia that some may find amusing:

Susan has been bashed by some ol' timers for being too responsive to new folks!

So if she is finding that one can only say "Audio is not midi" or "turn off the 'What you hear option' or "You really do need an external midi instrument before you should worry about midi outs" or "please read up about what a soft synth is" or "You can't hear anything until you tell it to play through something", etc. then I say it is OK for her to finally let out her frustration!

Of course she will continue to offer help where she can - but she may just be a little more selective. Al used to be honored here; BaMidi was a sage; Yep helped me learn; we all move on. Love Ya Susan!

Brian

I blame all of this on ADATs.

ORIGINAL: axe

I do not view these threads as very courteous or setting a good impression for those visiting this site. Honestly, it is a little elitist (Cubasish, European) or at least comes off that way. There is no one forcing you to read or respond to these posts. The amount of traffic should make you mindful that you landed on the product that is on its way up.

:)

AXE

A little elitist?

ORIGINAL: guitarmikeh

first off....most poeple are stupid...most of the features of this program are easy to understand using the manual. if you dont bother to read the manual when you run into a problem, then your a complete idiot. And then, if you **** and moan out it, what are you?

this program is not that difficult.

This is exactly why I don't make posts that start with "people are stupid".

Hi Brian-

And here is an obscure piece of trivia that some may find amusing:

Susan has been bashed by some ol' timers for being too responsive to new folks!

So if she is finding that one can only say "Audio is not midi" or "turn off the 'What you hear option' or "You really do need an external midi instrument before you should worry about midi outs" or "please read up about what a soft synth is" or "You can't hear anything until you tell it to play through something", etc. then I say it is OK for her to finally let out her frustration!

Of course she will continue to offer help where she can - but she may just be a little more selective. Al used to be honored here; BaMidi was a sage; Yep helped me learn; we all move on. Love Ya Susan!

What?

-Susan

Hi AXE-

I do not view these threads as very courteous or setting a good impression for those visiting this site.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend anyone.

-Susan