TheEdster75
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Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
Ok, I am reading about recording vocals here.... And what I am reading is that vocals benefit greatly by pre-recorded compression. So it's recommended to put lead vocals through a insert sub-chain with a compression/expander and EQ.. First, what is an insert sub-chain? I mean I understand the concept of the signal chain and how sound travels through that chain. But what is the sub-chain? That is kinda throwing me here.... Now, I only have my Mics going into an Edirol FA-66 Audio Interface and then into Sonar 8.5. So I have no mixing boards, only the mixing console view Sonar provides... How would I acheive the above with just the equipment I listed, if possible? Oh, and I am a guitarist learning to record... So those who answer, try and speak down to my level.. lol!! Thanks!
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 02:59:58
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I don't know where you read vocals benefit from pre-recorded compression. I'd say the opposite, With the headroom available from recording at 24 bit there's really no need to commit compression 'to tape'. Add it afterwards when you can still adjust it to fit your mix etc. Once you've compressed and recorded it you can't undo it. I record most things dry although I will record chorus and delays on my guitars if it's an intricate part of the song. Can't say I'm over familiar with a "sub-chain" but what you are describing sounds like a chain of processors on the insert point. Usually found on mixers they take the signal out of the mixer, process the signal and return it back. The difference between an insert and send is that usually there is no original signal returned, it is a 'wet' replacement although this isn't always the case. There is an insert box in Sonar but the difference is it still records the 'dry' signal but you can monitor it wet when recording via the 'input monitoring, button on the track bar. Hope this helps.
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chilldanny
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 03:33:04
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I for one agree that recording vocals with compression is generally good practice. However, you only want the compressor to catch the most extreme peaks (the very loudest parts) with very little gain reduction (the amount of compression being applied). Altho very true that in these 24bit days the available headroom negates the need for compression when recording, I've never had a problem with it. Each to their own =)
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lfm
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 04:32:08
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Having pre-recorded compression, wasn't that pretty much about getting a well saturated tape, not to let a few weak words in a frase destroy a take. And it also means you need not to run through a hardware compressor later, adding the tape noise to it. So as already said, 24-bit recording, if using it, does not need pre-recorded compression for the headroom sake. You can raise level later without bad effect like added noise(within limitations of course) etc. But most often the final track wins on having compression plugins at the mixing stage. Even out a frase here and there, if vocalist used to much dynamics or is slightly weak. The glue effect.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 05:45:24
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The only reason I would track vocals with compression would be if I had a GOOD hardware comp. Which I don't Even then I'd think twice about it. Once it's on your tracks, you can't get it off.
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chilldanny
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 05:53:56
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Bristol_Jonesey Once it's on your tracks, you can't get it off. Which is the crucial point. Subtlety is key. For me it's just habbit from recording to tape. Old habbits die hard!! =)
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 06:02:46
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I know what you're saying Danny. I'd go as far as to say, if the compression you're tracking with is THAT subtle, then what's the point at all? Equip me with a U87, a Great River pre-amp, and a 1176 and I MIGHT be tempted to add a bit. Unless of course you know your signal path and singer so well you can accurately predict what's going to end up on tape/disc.....
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Crg
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 07:50:00
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How would I acheive the above with just the equipment I listed, if possible? You'd need a mic pre with compression at the very least. A cheap example would be the DBX 286A. Setting mic gain and preamp output prior to hitting the computer can make things a lot easier. Taming the mic on the way in is only one way to go. Setting up a compressor and EQ in Sonar is going to be mostly the same. Insert sub chain? Where did you read that?
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mudgel
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 08:08:19
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I wonder if the OP was misquoting and actually meant Insert "Side" Chain
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DeeringAmps
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 09:19:17
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Mic>pre>comp>tape or disk, doesn't matter. Every great vocal you've ever heard was recorded that way. Tom
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 09:46:17
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Crg How would I acheive the above with just the equipment I listed, if possible?
You'd need a mic pre with compression at the very least. A cheap example would be the DBX 286A. Setting mic gain and preamp output prior to hitting the computer can make things a lot easier. Taming the mic on the way in is only one way to go. Setting up a compressor and EQ in Sonar is going to be mostly the same. Insert sub chain? Where did you read that? Hey Craig! I've got that DBX 286A - must have had it for over 10 years now!
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DeeringAmps
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 10:54:24
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Ed, We all got a bit off topic, except Crg. This is a situation where you will need hardware prior to your interface. Don't compress in Sonar until you're mixing, that way you're not "stuck" with it. Bristol is on the right track me with a "U87, a Great River pre-amp, and a 1176"; no "MIGHT" about it, just me. The UA 6176 and LA-610 do a nice job, pre and comp combined; bit pricey, check the used market. On a budget, research Crg's advice. Good Luck, Tom
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AT
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 11:07:38
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There is no right and wrong way, but a good chain going in is great. Nothing wrong w/ printing effects - if you like what you hear, print it. A comp/limiter going in can even out a performance so you have to muck around w/ less in the mix, just as using a HP filter can get rid of sonic junk before it hits the convertor. Good hardware definately helps. I was reviewing the new RND Portico II channel strip here at home and a little compression and subtle EQ works great. Smoothest bass I've recorded and a singer said she'd never sounded so good - even in a major studio. Two cavets. You are committing to "tape" so you can't change your mind latter w/o re-recording the track. Anything extreme I'd wait until the mix since it might not work in context. That is an experience thing. The other fact is you'll get much better results using high-end gear - both recording and mixing. I seldom printed to tape w/ my old dbx 163. Lowever end pro unit, but hardly worth extra effort except on bass and some other select things. Once I collected a few better units, I used them more often in recording. Some transformer roundness can help w/ the rather pristine nature of digital. It is an artistic decision, really. If you like it or makes mixing easier, go for it. If not, nobody is the boss of your own music. But do try both ways so you can make an informed artistic decision. @
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dude24man
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 11:11:05
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I have that same combo, U87, neve 1272, UA 1176. most vocals I record are smacked with about 7 to 10 db of compresson on the vu meter. sounds like a record on most vocals, very little tweaking after the fact except for some eqing, however if the vocals are really esssy going in, I mite change the mic, re20? arty
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dude24man
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 11:13:50
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commit to tape or drive my friend. arty
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Lynn
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 11:16:07
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AT There is no right and wrong way, but a good chain going in is great. Nothing wrong w/ printing effects - if you like what you hear, print it. A comp/limiter going in can even out a performance so you have to muck around w/ less in the mix, just as using a HP filter can get rid of sonic junk before it hits the convertor. Good hardware definately helps. I was reviewing the new RND Portico II channel strip here at home and a little compression and subtle EQ works great. Smoothest bass I've recorded and a singer said she'd never sounded so good - even in a major studio. Two cavets. You are committing to "tape" so you can't change your mind latter w/o re-recording the track. Anything extreme I'd wait until the mix since it might not work in context. That is an experience thing. The other fact is you'll get much better results using high-end gear - both recording and mixing. I seldom printed to tape w/ my old dbx 163. Lowever end pro unit, but hardly worth extra effort except on bass and some other select things. Once I collected a few better units, I used them more often in recording. Some transformer roundness can help w/ the rather pristine nature of digital. It is an artistic decision, really. If you like it or makes mixing easier, go for it. If not, nobody is the boss of your own music. But do try both ways so you can make an informed artistic decision. @ +1
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Beagle
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 11:30:26
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most commercial studios are going to compress vox going in. but also consider that they have better equipment than most home users. and as has been said already, consider that if you do that you can't undo it without re-recording. an inexpensive compressor about to be released is the Golden Age Comp 54. available in October for $399. I plan to pick one up to compliment my Golden Age Pre 73 (Neve clone).
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Middleman
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 11:34:20
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dude24man I have that same combo, U87, neve 1272, UA 1176. most vocals I record are smacked with about 7 to 10 db of compresson on the vu meter. sounds like a record on most vocals, very little tweaking after the fact except for some eqing, however if the vocals are really esssy going in, I mite change the mic, re20? arty +1 If you have the chain, print it. Build the mix around it. If you don't, then record it raw and add the compression later. What you are referring to (the original OP) is splitting the signal to get the raw track plus a compression track recorded in the initial pass. This is done to give you two options for the mix. Some even combine them for various results.
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EasTexGuy
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 11:40:24
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FWIW - My wife does most of the vocals around here. She has a dynamic range that drove/drives me batty. While she's fairly good with a hand-held and mic placement to level things out she is lost, or so it seems, when it's on a stand. I have a dbx 266XL inserted behind the Lambda's preamp and set to knock off her ex-loud passes, etc. Subtle... meh, maybe... but sure enough to smooth out the peaks && valleys. My life got so much easier afterward. I wonder sometimes though while trying to bring the mix up to CD levels if the compression while tracking isn't a better choice. Meh... it's another nightmare to balance tracking compression vs fx. On the one hand you can reduce the plugin count some and on the other you loose some control. However... we cut and push tracks during the mix... tracking comp might make that a less tedious job. Meh... I just do what works for me and my situation... very poor at offering such advice to someone else. Using my technique might end with your singing wife sounding like ol Nell out in the barn at milking time! @_@
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johnnyV
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 11:44:19
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I'll go with the -If you have a high quality outboard Comp/pre amp this is how it's usually done, but using a VST plug in?? tacky.
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dude24man
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 12:04:56
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how about a waves l1? I know, most people say thats a mastering plug. try it vocals and smack it! pretty cool on vocals and snare. give it a try
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Beagle
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 13:00:25
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johnnyV I'll go with the -If you have a high quality outboard Comp/pre amp this is how it's usually done, but using a VST plug in?? tacky. johnny - if you mean using a VST plugin to record compression on the track during tracking you can't really do that. (not effectively anyway - you could do it in a roundabout way but that would be way too hard). anyway - these guys aren't talking about RECORDING with a compression plugin, but adding it to the track after it's been recorded.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 13:06:25
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Once I collected a few better units, I used them more often in recording. Some transformer roundness can help w/ the rather pristine nature of digital. I think this is worth repeating... If you don't have quality outboard, you're better off recording sans compression/EQ. IOW, A cheap/mediocre outboard dynamics processor doesn't bring much to the table.
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johnnyV
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 13:11:19
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And what I am reading is that vocals benefit greatly by pre-recorded compression. So it's recommended to put lead vocals through a insert sub-chain with a compression/expander and EQ.. Beagle I dunno, To me it looked like the advice he had read was about compressing the vocals as they are recorded. Which as said is fine with outboard gear, I was just figuring you might use a VST plug in live to track somehow. I've never done this because of CPU power and RTL being very pour on my system, but I understood it was possible to print VST on the fly live to track.
post edited by johnnyV - 2010/09/30 13:12:38
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TheEdster75
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 13:20:19
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Hey, thanks everyone for the quick responses, it is much appreciated!! For those of you wondering where I got the term "insert sub-chain" I am reading Guerrilla Home Recording (Second Edition) by Karl Coryat, and that is where I came a crossed that term.. Maybe he did mean to say Side Chain and it's a typo... In that case I need to learn about that too.... Can you all explain Side Chain to me? How to use and it's benefits? I'm an extremely visual learner, so if you have links to video or something with illustrations, that would be awesome.....
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 13:20:45
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I dunno, To me it looked like the advice he had read was about compressing the vocals as they are recorded. Which as said is fine with outboard gear, I was just figuring you might use a VST plug in live to track somehow. I've never done this because of CPU power and RTL being very pour on my system, but I understood it was possible to print VST on the fly live to track FWIW, Since the dynamic processing (via plugin) would be post A/D converter, the end result would be the same as just adding the compressor (non-destructively) in the track's EFX bin. No real advantage to "printing" it...
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yorolpal
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 13:25:01
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I always record vocals with just a "skosh" of compression. At my project studio I use the "Really Nice Compressor" running into my ISA One. Honest, that's it's name and brother, it is. Plus it's very affordable...I think about $200. The key, as some have said, is subtlety. Just catch the peaks.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 13:31:28
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I use the "Really Nice Compressor" running into my ISA One. Honest, that's it's name and brother, it is. Plus it's very affordable...I think about $200. The key, as some have said, is subtlety. Just catch the peaks. That unit is the exception... Most cheap dynamics processors sound horrible (Alesis, Behringer, DBX, etc) Interested to hear the GAP compressor Beagle mentioned...
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Beagle
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 14:04:47
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Jim Roseberry I use the "Really Nice Compressor" running into my ISA One. Honest, that's it's name and brother, it is. Plus it's very affordable...I think about $200. The key, as some have said, is subtlety. Just catch the peaks.
That unit is the exception... Most cheap dynamics processors sound horrible (Alesis, Behringer, DBX, etc) Interested to hear the GAP compressor Beagle mentioned... me too! if it pleases me as much as my Pre 73 does then it will be well worth it!
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feedback50
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Re:Pre-Recorded Compression on Vocals......
2010/09/30 14:16:46
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I also have used the RNC in sort of a peak limiting fashion on many vocal tracks. Works very nicely and doesn't leave much of a footprint. I also use a pair of LA610s when I want more of a classic personality-compression effect. Once in the box, I use mostly UAD compression plugs. I've been kind of looking at the FMR PBC6A compressor as well. Looks pretty cool, but if you are buying a pair of them, there are other nice dual channel boxes in the same price-neighborhood.
post edited by feedback50 - 2010/09/30 14:20:06
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