PeterMc
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Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
I'm wondering if zerofilling might be a cause of the pops/maxed-out meters/no sound syndrome being discussed here. So, I have two questions: 1. When and where is silence zerofilled to very small numbers? Where in the signal flow path, and under what conditions? I find that some plugins do it (like Sonitus) but others don't (like LP EQ). Is it only applied to plugins? 2. Perhaps more importantly, 32 bit numbers can represent a dB range of about 186dB. So if I have 64 bit processing turned off, should ZeroFillDB be no bigger than 186? Otherwise, surely it can't be represented internally? Cheers, Peter.
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taccess
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/13 00:55:35
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PeterMc
I'm wondering if zerofilling might be a cause of the pops/maxed-out meters/no sound syndrome being discussed here.
So, I have two questions:
1. When and where is silence zerofilled to very small numbers? Where in the signal flow path, and under what conditions? I find that some plugins do it (like Sonitus) but others don't (like LP EQ). Is it only applied to plugins?
2. Perhaps more importantly, 32 bit numbers can represent a dB range of about 186dB. So if I have 64 bit processing turned off, should ZeroFillDB be no bigger than 186? Otherwise, surely it can't be represented internally?
Cheers, Peter.
I was thinking of turning it down from the default 300 to 150 or even off like you suggested. Be interesting if the cakewalk staff can answer your questions and help us understand our options with the settings available !
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bitflipper
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/13 01:41:07
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I believe the default behavior is to write noise to the output buffers in lieu of complete silence. I doubt changing ZeroFillDB would have any impact. I wouldn't turn the feature off.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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PeterMc
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/13 01:57:04
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It might be worth trying anyway on the project that was giving you grief. It's just crazy enough to work :) See my post in the other thread for more details - you may have to mute some instrument tracks too.
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taccess
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/13 03:00:01
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The day before yesterday it happened all day it was shocking!
Then yesterday on the same project in 3 hours it happened once ! I have pro-l on my master just for monitoring purposes and I can visually see it every time it pops and blurbs, and when it's a huge pop I think the pro-l saves me from the devastating silent master bus.
My plan is to wait until it is doing it frequently again then I am going to try turn it off. Keep in mind I have also just stripped down a large project trying to source this problem , it is a problem that needs to be fixed and without blaming anyone this has been a problem from the start and I think it's time for cakewalk to at least relook and rethink this.
I will report anything I find and I will try the different available aud.ini zero fill and zero db settings when the problem fires up requently again, starting with turning both off first (:
I have noticed something that I believe is related to this maybe someone can tell me what this is ? > sometimes when playback is stopped I go up and down my primary tracks and notice on some of them there is a signal -110db , so what I do is insert a new track above it and basically manually clone that -110db primary track and then delete the -110db primary track and the noise on the new manually cloned track has gone ( So recap the new manually cloned track has the same plugins and the same synth input - but the low level noise / zerofill is gone) !
Now I just did a video tutorial and sent it to cakewalk regarding ableton rewire audio outputs going silent ( which they confirmed that they have replicated the bug) anyway additionally in that video I also included what I just explained above about the low noise which I believe is the zerofill kicking in.
Thanks
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taccess
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/13 12:25:57
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☄ Helpfulby ZincTrumpet 2017/07/13 13:41:37
OK I am back with some results:
I want to say a big THankYOU To CAkeWalk For giving us lots of choice with different settings throughout this DAW.
After testing these it looks promising that there are 3 other options to try which may fix this or make it better for your system specs !
There are 2 things that i want to recommend to cakewalk that could help these settings be used better:
A) ZeroFillMethod=2 cant be used unless ZeroFillDB = 300 , anything less than 300 is audible ( unusable to mix with ), so can you please increase ZeroFillDB to = 600 when combined with ZeroFillMethod=2 .
B)ZeroFillMethod=4 is Constantly Audible Noise ( unusable to mix with ) and can not be used, even when combined with ( ZeroFillDB = 0 to 300 has no impact on the signal level of ZeroFillMethod=4 !BUG! Please fix so we can ( test / use ) this !
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something you should know before we do the tests is that :
A) ZeroFillDB = 300 is the maximum value, when measuring the fill on totalmix fx or schope, changing ZeroFillDB to = 600 had exactly the same fill signal as ZeroFillDB = 300.
B) These are tests on my system and have been tested as described below, this is only a reference to help you find the right setting for yourself, which you would have to test one at a time for a 2 week period minimum and monitor differences between the default and user changes. Just Saying don't change to much at once if your not familar with these settings !
TEST 1 :
1) Lets try ZeroFillDB = 100 + ZeroFillMethod=2 buffers filled with alternating positive and negative values, alternating on each buffer switch =
RESULT: there's those nasty spikes UNDERNEATH OUR MIX "AUDIABLE YOU SHOULD HEAR THIS FOR YOURSELF " ! OMG maybe this should be ZeroFillDB =600 if using ZeroFillMethod=2 thast is Nasty !
Never the less this setting is there to try to do a job for us !
SHAME ZeroFillDB=600 ISN'T A OPTION with this !
CAUTION :( ZeroFillDB = 0 to 200 combined with ZeroFillMethod=2 is unusable because of the constant audible spikes during mixing)
MY Opinion : help me run for my life!
TEST 2:
2)Lets try ZeroFillDB = 300 + ZeroFillMethod=0 silent buffers filled with zeroes (no denormal prevention)=
RESULT: NICE NO NOISE ( what impact this has though when a nasty denormal comes along is the million dollar question ?) surely it wont be as nasty as those HEAVY Random spikes /fingers crossed!
THIS setting is what i have had running now on loop for 2 hours straight and so far nothing at all( NO POPS OR BLURPS OR BLEEPS ) - NICE, even sounds more settled during loop playback !
( which at times also could be achieved on the Default setting i want to add )
( 2 hours is not enough so by next Friday i will know for sure, i am leaving on this setting until then.)
My opinion : so far so good
TEST 3:
3)Lets try ZeroFillDB = 100 + ZeroFillMethod=1 buffers filled with positive DC values =
RESULT: NO NOISE NO SPIKES NICE !
( quick 5 min Loop playback test : sounds smooth no spikes in that time )
( ZeroFillDB = 100 could be increased to 300 which is a + )
My Opinion of ZeroFillMethod=1: So Far so good
TEST 4:
4)Lets try ZeroFillDB = 100 + ZeroFillMethod=3 same as ZeroFillMethod=2, but polarity changes with each sample =
RESULT: NO NOISE NO SPIKES
( quick 5 min Loop playback test : sounds ok but spikey during the " loop playback END "nothing bad but definitely sounds edgy )
( ZeroFillDB = 300 would suit ZeroFillMethod=3 better for sure )
My Opinion of ZeroFillMethod=3 : Seems better than ZeroFillMethod=2
TEST 5:
5)Lets try ZeroFillDB = 100 + ZeroFillMethod=4 buffers filled with low-gain noise =
RESULT: Interesting super fast spikes CONSTANTLY !
This is similar to ZeroFillMethod=2 but MUCH FASTER constant Audible unusable ATM because when combined with ZeroFillDB =0 to 300 does nothing ! BUG ! Please FIX
Hope this helps i am trying my hardest to get cakewalk to share all the documentation on all the aud.ini settings this is a perfect example of why and also a highlight of why they should be explained with more detail also!
I will keep you posted of the current setting combination i am testing ! Fingers crossed no more POPS .
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ZincTrumpet
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/13 13:44:39
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Thanks for all your efforts! Let's hope you might be onto something here so that I can at least manage this problem at some point in the future (other than closing and reopening a project). It happened this morning while I was in the process of demonstrating Sonar to a friend who wants to buy it. 
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bvideo
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/13 14:50:41
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I was suspecting zero fill as part of the problem in this project. Among other findings, I saw the track meter jumping during playback in a zero-filled area, and spikes printed in a zero-fill area of a track when using real-time bounce. And turning ON the 64-bit engine made the spikes go away. When I get a chance, I'll try out some of the options listed by taccess
W10 pro, Sonar Platinum, Alesis Multimix 16 FW, MOTU Express 128, Gigabyte Z370 HD3P, i7 8700K, 16 Gigs, ssd + 2 X 2T disks, D50-MEX, JV80, A90EX, M1REX
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bitflipper
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/13 15:09:21
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☄ Helpfulby taccess 2017/07/13 21:54:01
Good stuff taccess! There'd be a lot more solid information on this forum if more users, instead of just wondering out loud, took the time to actually figure stuff out empirically.
Just a thought...let's be careful about extrapolating specific results into universal advice. CW put these options in for a reason, which is most likely because how well the zero fill trick works may depend entirely on your own software environment.
Also, caution should always be exercised when you're trying to establish cause and effect for an intermittent problem that can't be reliably repeated. I don't know how many times I've been misled by seemingly efficacious actions that later turned out to just be coincidental.
I no longer have a reproducible scenario here. The project that had been giving me the pops/silence/pegged-meters symptoms pretty regularly (50%) no longer does so. I've no idea what's changed.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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taccess
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/14 02:35:16
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ZincTrumpet
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/14 11:54:44
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Sir Les
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/14 12:14:25
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bitflipper
Good stuff taccess! There'd be a lot more solid information on this forum if more users, instead of just wondering out loud, took the time to actually figure stuff out empirically.
Just a thought...let's be careful about extrapolating specific results into universal advice. CW put these options in for a reason, which is most likely because how well the zero fill trick works may depend entirely on your own software environment.
Also, caution should always be exercised when you're trying to establish cause and effect for an intermittent problem that can't be reliably repeated. I don't know how many times I've been misled by seemingly efficacious actions that later turned out to just be coincidental.
Wow...I have been coming here to get help for some time, using some real expensive stuff....and lots of issues...some tried to help me with the basics. None of that worked out.... Now is it up to users, and many have tried..and many have paid for troubleshooting the systems here on my end of things...and life time updates paid for them to solve it. So...user need to be what? Think again that process of thinking into...being stupid to pay for it...to needs be a trouble...Might set this post proper?....Never mind the user based forum, and the complaints being put....of things oddly not a users fault to needs be doing any of...More the case put forward back onto... Now, if setting up, is not mentioned how to, or what may solve for X....and many seem to be chimed into knowing something is not right somewhere with....Where with all this saying to new users, to update and set up liken this...does not solve, ...If so setup as so said to do here on these forums by users...of well known merits in setup of. And....Now again we are supposed to make the fixes also be made? Nah!
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bvideo
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/14 17:20:06
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bvideo
I was suspecting zero fill as part of the problem in this project. Among other findings, I saw the track meter jumping during playback in a zero-filled area, and spikes printed in a zero-fill area of a track when using real-time bounce. And turning ON the 64-bit engine made the spikes go away.
When I get a chance, I'll try out some of the options listed by taccess
Tried out; seems unrelated to my project's problem.
W10 pro, Sonar Platinum, Alesis Multimix 16 FW, MOTU Express 128, Gigabyte Z370 HD3P, i7 8700K, 16 Gigs, ssd + 2 X 2T disks, D50-MEX, JV80, A90EX, M1REX
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taccess
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/14 22:36:20
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bvideo
bvideo
I was suspecting zero fill as part of the problem in this project. Among other findings, I saw the track meter jumping during playback in a zero-filled area, and spikes printed in a zero-fill area of a track when using real-time bounce. And turning ON the 64-bit engine made the spikes go away.
When I get a chance, I'll try out some of the options listed by taccess
Tried out; seems unrelated to my project's problem.
Yeah you might be right I have tried zerofillmethod = 0,1,2 only 3 left to try because 4 doesn't work at all and my problem still occurs also! I have downloaded Microsoft essentials screen capture ,I am going to video screen record my project spike/pop issue during playback ( because it's random and impossible to re Create with steps ) and maybe start a post with video evidence that Cakewalk staff and forum users can visually and audiably connect to ! There is no other way other than putting up with this , so if you can do the same please do . Regardless zerofillmethod=4 still needs to be fixed it has a bug currently !
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taccess
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/14 22:49:26
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jbraner
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/18 19:55:22
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Well, I'll be damned! I disabled the 64 bit engine in Preferences -> Driver settings, and my problems have gone!
Granted, my problems only showed when opening a project, with buffers set too low - but the "problem" files have some VST3 plugs, and I had the 64 bit engine enabled.
Turning off all FX also solved the problem, so I knew that my problem is related to the others...
The ZeroFillDB and ZeroFillMethod settings didn't have any affect here.
My problem isn't really the same as most others (and I always blamed the MOTU driver for it) but I think it is related to the SONAR/certain plugins/64 bit engine problem.
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taccess
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/18 23:48:30
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jbraner
Well, I'll be damned! I disabled the 64 bit engine in Preferences -> Driver settings, and my problems have gone!
Granted, my problems only showed when opening a project, with buffers set too low - but the "problem" files have some VST3 plugs, and I had the 64 bit engine enabled.
Turning off all FX also solved the problem, so I knew that my problem is related to the others...
The ZeroFillDB and ZeroFillMethod settings didn't have any affect here.
My problem isn't really the same as most others (and I always blamed the MOTU driver for it) but I think it is related to the SONAR/certain plugins/64 bit engine problem.
Can you describe your particular problem that disabling the 64 bit engine fixed for you so others know , or even better catch it on a short video for us to see please
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bitflipper
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/19 00:07:49
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Turning off the 64-bit engine reduces CPU and memory usage. That could be a cure for many scenarios, but probably not this one. I never use the 64-bit option.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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jbraner
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Re: Questions about zerofilling related to pops/maxed meters/no sound
2017/07/19 08:05:02
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taccess
jbraner
Well, I'll be damned! I disabled the 64 bit engine in Preferences -> Driver settings, and my problems have gone!
Granted, my problems only showed when opening a project, with buffers set too low - but the "problem" files have some VST3 plugs, and I had the 64 bit engine enabled.
Turning off all FX also solved the problem, so I knew that my problem is related to the others...
The ZeroFillDB and ZeroFillMethod settings didn't have any affect here.
My problem isn't really the same as most others (and I always blamed the MOTU driver for it) but I think it is related to the SONAR/certain plugins/64 bit engine problem.
Can you describe your particular problem that disabling the 64 bit engine fixed for you so others know , or even better catch it on a short video for us to see please
I think I described my problem earlier on - but basically, when I load certain songs in SONAR, and the buffers are set too low - I get the previously mentioned problem where: - sometimes there is a pop - the SONAR meters max out (on one or more tracks) - no sound comes out of the audio interface I have always blamed my MOTU drivers for this - and would change them to a higher buffers setting - then the same song would play fine. With the latest MOTU drivers, I could just change the settings there and then, and the audio would be fine - previously, I may have had to close SONAR, change the buffers, then re-open (and then it would play fine) It was after reading this thread, and the similar ones, that I realised that my problem may be related to what others are seeing. I do have some VST3 plugs in these songs, and have always used the 64 bit engine. I also learned (from these threads) that turning off all FX makes the audio paly fine too. I don't really have anything on my music partition to make a video with.
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