Helpful ReplyReally incredible that we still can't record a soft synth's output in real time

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musichoo
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2013/08/08 08:18:57 (permalink)
Yes yes yes. Thank You Sharke for bringing this up. I have a Harmor softsynth made by Imageline. Sonar X2 just could not record any of Harmor's real time XY control from  from my mouse movement. This is a great feature request! I would definitely upgrade to X3 if this recording feature is implemented.  
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sharke
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2013/08/08 09:32:49 (permalink)
musichoo
Yes yes yes. Thank You Sharke for bringing this up. I have a Harmor softsynth made by Imageline. Sonar X2 just could not record any of Harmor's real time XY control from  from my mouse movement. This is a great feature request! I would definitely upgrade to X3 if this recording feature is implemented.  




Does it support OSC controllers like Reaktor? If so, you'd be able to set up an iPhone/iPad to record the XY control. 

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#32
beltrom
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2013/08/08 12:43:53 (permalink)
sharke
musichoo
Yes yes yes. Thank You Sharke for bringing this up. I have a Harmor softsynth made by Imageline. Sonar X2 just could not record any of Harmor's real time XY control from  from my mouse movement. This is a great feature request! I would definitely upgrade to X3 if this recording feature is implemented.  




Does it support OSC controllers like Reaktor? If so, you'd be able to set up an iPhone/iPad to record the XY control. 




I have Harmor. Not sure if it's what you want musichoo, but you can set up automation lanes for Mod x, y and z, if you do that Sonar records your GUI movements. Personally I prefer to set up a controller for them instead and record them from there - but it does work with the GUI as well.
#33
Living Room Rocker
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2013/08/08 23:50:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ULTRABRA 2013/08/09 07:44:32
ULTRABRA
 
Saffire 24 Pro has a loopback which allows this?  How does that work in Sonar - what is the process setting up the necessary tracks?


Go to your Saffire MixControl and mouse click on Input FX and from the pop-up menu click on "Router".   From there you will see the following lower section.  You will now notice two Loop Back outputs which you can choose your mix output.
 
Go into Preferences in Sonar and check the input(s) for the Loop Back(s).  Now you can choose either of those in the input of an audio track or tracks.
 
Kind regards,
 
Living Room Rocker
 
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#34
ULTRABRA
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2013/08/09 07:45:20 (permalink)
Thanks - I recently gt a Saffire so I'll give this a try.  
 
 
Living Room Rocker
ULTRABRA
 
Saffire 24 Pro has a loopback which allows this?  How does that work in Sonar - what is the process setting up the necessary tracks?


Go to your Saffire MixControl and mouse click on Input FX and from the pop-up menu click on "Router".   From there you will see the following lower section.  You will now notice two Loop Back outputs which you can choose your mix output.
 
Go into Preferences in Sonar and check the input(s) for the Loop Back(s).  Now you can choose either of those in the input of an audio track or tracks.
 
Kind regards,
 
Living Room Rocker
 
P.S.  Not able to insert/paste pictures/graphics.





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#35
ULTRABRA
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2013/08/09 07:50:09 (permalink)
...

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#36
2:43AM
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2013/08/09 08:00:38 (permalink)
In response to the OP, I too have wondered why the record button keeps disappearing when I route a soft synth's output as the audio channel's input. I wondered it for about 8 seconds and then just did a loop-back input to record the audio stream. There are some limitations to this, however, as ALL audio will be recorded. It's almost like the old, "What You Hear" thing in Windows. So all other tracks must be muted. OK for some things, but limiting in others. Therefore, I agree the ability to record a soft synth directly would be a valuable feature.  Maybe if we all submit a feature request, it will appear that these things will take higher priority.
 
ULTRABRA
Saffire 24 Pro has a loopback which allows this?  How does that work in Sonar - what is the process setting up the necessary tracks?



Easy peasy. In MixControl set your loop back channels to DAW1 and DAW2 respectively.  Make sure those channels are enabled and available in Sonar's audio preferences.  Create a new audio track and set its input to that loop-back (either L/R/Stereo).
#37
PilotGav
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2013/08/09 15:06:22 (permalink)
mmorgan
Have gone the feature request route yet? I'd start there and I would agree that it seems like a good thing to be able to do.

 
Members have been requesting this feature for YEARS. It's a horrible limitation that has stopped me up MANY times. for example... 
 
I was working on a piece using an ARP 2600 style plug in. Randon Sample/Hold was an important part of the sound. I wanted to record the part and capture the take that sounded best to me - in other words the one that the RSH gave the coolest performance.
 
If I only recorded the midi, it would be different EVERY time the song was played in Sonar. I would have NO idea what I'd end up with in the final mix. So I wanted to be able to record each take. NO CAN DO. 
 
What good is a recording setup when you can't RECORD the audio :-)
 
Frustrating.
#38
musichoo
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2013/08/09 19:53:27 (permalink)
beltrom
sharke
musichoo
Yes yes yes. Thank You Sharke for bringing this up. I have a Harmor softsynth made by Imageline. Sonar X2 just could not record any of Harmor's real time XY control from  from my mouse movement. This is a great feature request! I would definitely upgrade to X3 if this recording feature is implemented.  




Does it support OSC controllers like Reaktor? If so, you'd be able to set up an iPhone/iPad to record the XY control. 




Thanks. I will give that a try!
I have Harmor. Not sure if it's what you want musichoo, but you can set up automation lanes for Mod x, y and z, if you do that Sonar records your GUI movements. Personally I prefer to set up a controller for them instead and record them from there - but it does work with the GUI as well.




#39
radgeorge
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a soft synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 05:30:15 (permalink)
I won't buy anything past Sonar x3 Producer if this valuable feature is still missing from the product.
"Record a soft synth's output in real time" 
The ability to record a soft synth's output in real time becomes more and more important as we all use more and more soft synth modules and want the FULL performance of the module to be captured in wav form NOT midi.
 
#40
mudgel
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a soft synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 06:04:59 (permalink)
Still missing. You can record the MIDI in real time but not the audio. This is a 2 year old thread. You would have been better off starting a new one.

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#41
Gone!!
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a soft synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 06:14:58 (permalink)
Really ? perhaps it will come one day ?
#42
dcumpian
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a soft synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 08:09:58 (permalink)
jih64
Really ? perhaps it will come one day ?




It's a good thing that you can, because recording and editing midi there is awful. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot to like, but midi is a huge weakness for those of us who need use it.
 
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#43
Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a soft synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 08:26:38 (permalink)
Agree with most of this. This is meat and potatos functionality that is missing.

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#44
bitman
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 08:28:05 (permalink)
It seems so logical to do this that I suspect there was a problem within Sonar's code that made doing this problematic so they consciously took away the record button to at least keep the code from crashing. I'm sure if that was the case it was done with trepidation.
 
If it were a simple thing, it would have been added to the icing on the cake in Foxboro instead of a (midi cable review?)
 
Just supposing.
 
#45
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 08:33:32 (permalink)
Do any other DAW's out there allow a VST synth to be recorded in real-time?
#46
Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 08:41:11 (permalink)
Ableton

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#47
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 08:46:27 (permalink)
Yup.  That's what I though too but wasn't sure.
 
Well, maybe Sonar will release the feature, in the Charlie-Delta-Tango-Roger-Echo update.
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LaszloZoltan
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 09:12:57 (permalink)
maybe I am missing something here- I probably am- but when I 1st got sonar i was quite stumped and dismayed at being unable to record the audio I was hearing whilst tweaking Zeta+2- just the midi stuff. I found asio4all mentioned on other threads here and elsewhere and used the virtual line in on a bus to go back to an audio track that I recorded which then audio out to the master. So I managed to build up layering different tracks thus. I got an akai eie pro too to use the loopback- but I have blue screen issues cropping up and worry about hdd damage caused by hard crashes.
Bottom line is it (asio4all) seems to have done the job for me- but isn't this what you pros and veterans have been doing but using better hardware to record audio from either hard instrument or loopback soft synth ?
 
Sorry, but this thread got me feeling pretty confused about things right now
 
(I got Scott G.s X2 and X3 Power books to guide me in the beginning, but ashamedly I have to admit I find it is more fun to make noise than reading how to). Hope no one is offended. 
#49
tlw
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 09:26:13 (permalink)
For softwRe synths I just track the MIDi then bounce the tracks. Never looped one back through the interface, never needed to.

Remember that the software synth is entirely controlled by MIDI (as are all the functions on quite a few hardware synths) so the recorded MIDI is as complete a record of the performance as the output of the synth is.

As for ASIO4ALL if your interface manufacturer supplies an ASIO driver use that not ASIO4ALL. ASIO4ALL is a hack to try and fool the Windows WDM drover into acting like an ASIO driver. It's intended as a last resort for when the sound card has no other ASIO driver available, such as the sound chips on many motherboards or built into laptops, ASIO4ALL is difficult to configure and can cause all kinds of problems itself and with genuine ASIO drivers as well.

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#50
Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 09:28:01 (permalink)
tlw
ASIO4ALL is difficult to configure and can cause all kinds of problems itself and with genuine ASIO drivers as well.



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#51
pwalpwal
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 09:38:42 (permalink)
while evryone's moaning about asio4all again, some slighty worrying info on their forum: http://tippach.business.t-online.de/asio4all/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1231&sid=e9112bd7ead6bef1360711830cbadd3c

just a sec

#52
Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 10:06:21 (permalink)
pwalpwal
while evryone's moaning about asio4all again, some slighty worrying info on their forum: http://tippach.business.t-online.de/asio4all/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1231&sid=e9112bd7ead6bef1360711830cbadd3c





Yup I brought this up a while ago in the Windows 10 threads. They are mainly concerned with optimizing Windows driver models for tablets, touchscreens and whatever...  it will probably make ASIO4ALL even less relevant then because why would you still need a ASIO wrapper when you have these options?

MS said though that ASIO will still be the "best experience for DAWs". So nothing to worry about...
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/07/07 10:13:02

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#53
Teds_Studio
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 10:35:36 (permalink)
tlw
For softwRe synths I just track the MIDi then bounce the tracks. Never looped one back through the interface, never needed to.

Remember that the software synth is entirely controlled by MIDI (as are all the functions on quite a few hardware synths) so the recorded MIDI is as complete a record of the performance as the output of the synth is.

As for ASIO4ALL if your interface manufacturer supplies an ASIO driver use that not ASIO4ALL. ASIO4ALL is a hack to try and fool the Windows WDM drover into acting like an ASIO driver. It's intended as a last resort for when the sound card has no other ASIO driver available, such as the sound chips on many motherboards or built into laptops, ASIO4ALL is difficult to configure and can cause all kinds of problems itself and with genuine ASIO drivers as well.



This is my line of thought too.  And I would think this is why real time recording of a soft synth is not offered.  If you are able to capture the audio out of a soft synth in real time...you are not going to capture anything different than what the midi is transmitting anyway.  In other words....you can't capture any nuances or anything else in real time that is not recorded with midi to begin with.
 
Recording a hardware synth via analog outs is a totally different animal IMO than trying to record the soft synths in real time.  Personally...I would rather record the midi first and able to do any editing if needed before I bounce it down.
 
Edited to add:
I'm not dismissing anyone's preference on wanting to be able to do this...I just personally don't think it would be any different that what you record via midi first. :)
post edited by Teds_Studio - 2015/07/07 10:47:42

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#54
pwalpwal
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 10:41:40 (permalink)
alex, we shall see! i've had the w10 preview kicking about for a while just not around to installing/playing with it
post edited by pwalpwal - 2015/07/07 10:48:38

just a sec

#55
pwalpwal
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 10:48:43 (permalink)
Teds_Studio
tlw
For softwRe synths I just track the MIDi then bounce the tracks. Never looped one back through the interface, never needed to.

Remember that the software synth is entirely controlled by MIDI (as are all the functions on quite a few hardware synths) so the recorded MIDI is as complete a record of the performance as the output of the synth is.

As for ASIO4ALL if your interface manufacturer supplies an ASIO driver use that not ASIO4ALL. ASIO4ALL is a hack to try and fool the Windows WDM drover into acting like an ASIO driver. It's intended as a last resort for when the sound card has no other ASIO driver available, such as the sound chips on many motherboards or built into laptops, ASIO4ALL is difficult to configure and can cause all kinds of problems itself and with genuine ASIO drivers as well.



This is my line of thought too.  And I would think this is why real time recording of a soft synth is not offered.  If you are able to capture the audio out of a soft synth in real time...you are not going to capture anything different than what the midi is transmitting anyway.  In other words....you can't capture any nuances or anything else in real time that is not recorded with midi to begin with.
 
Recording a hardware synth via analog outs is a totally different animal IMO than trying to record the soft synths in real time.  Personally...I would rather record the midi first and able to do any editing if needed before I bounce it down.
 
Edited to add:
I'm not dismissing anyone's preference on wanting to be able to do this...I just personally don't think it would be any different that what you record via midi first. :)


ted, tim, some synths add randomised stuff that is different each playback, so there's a use, but if your premise were true generally why do other hosts offer this? (this = recording the synth out into another audio track) cakewalk's previous explanation was to prevent rubbish users creating feedback loops...

just a sec

#56
Teds_Studio
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 10:50:40 (permalink)
Ahhhh.....understood.  Did not realize that.

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#57
slartabartfast
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 11:46:24 (permalink)
The dreaded feedback loop has been mentioned more than once over the years in the context of why this and other similar MIDI routing issues have never seen the light of day. If it is impossible to create a feedback loop, then even the least attentive of users will not be able to cut off that limb while sitting on the wrong side of the saw. Various workarounds involving physical and digital loopback have been adopted as a result. So the wisdom of protecting your users from doing something stupid inside your program system and forcing them to do so outside using kludges that your system can not detect is questionable. If user safety is the issue, would it not be better to offer the routing options, and provide the logical analysis of how the user is hooking up the inputs and outputs so that if a feedback loop has indeed been created in Sonar, there will be an error message and a halt so the damage will not be done. This kind of thing is done routinely in a spreadsheet to tell you you have created a circular reference in a calculation. The technical problem of doing something like that in Sonar should not be insurmountable.
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Anderton
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 11:54:23 (permalink)
bitman
If it were a simple thing, it would have been added to the icing on the cake in Foxboro instead of a (midi cable review?)
 



One more time...I don't write code, and Cakewalk has nothing to do with the content I create (or write the eZine). My activities have zero impact on SONAR's development. Well, except provide a bonus that makes some people happy...more happy people, more people buy SONAR, Cakewalk can hire more developers to make even more people happy. 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Anderton
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time 2015/07/07 12:13:38 (permalink)
pwalpwal
 
ted, tim, some synths add randomised stuff that is different each playback, so there's a use, but if your premise were true generally why do other hosts offer this? (this = recording the synth out into another audio track) cakewalk's previous explanation was to prevent rubbish users creating feedback loops...



Although I understand this is something some people want, it doesn't get in the way of my working with soft synths for the following reasons.
 
1. If you want to record real-time control tweaks, in most synths any parameter you can tweak in real time is recordable as MIDI or VST automation.
2. If the playback truly does something random, then you won't know whether you like what it does until you hear it do its thing. But that's also the case if you render and listen back. The difference is whether you hear the change being generated in real time, or hear the change being generated in real time after rendering. So the only advantage of real-time recording is it would allow you to decide whether a part was a "keeper" or not right after it played, instead of rendering first and then evaluating.
3. You can always use the external insert to do a physical loopback. It requires going out of the box, but it works.
4. Jack Audio supposedly has a 64-bit version under development so you can do what Soundflower does on the Mac, which is more sophisticated than simply recording an instrument out.
 
I'm not arguing with anybody who wants it; if you want it, you want it. I just don't think it's a big deal, given there are ways to do what you want to do.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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