azslow3
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/08 15:38:32
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Adq
azslow3
Can you give me a link to this VSTi?
You could start with z3ta+.
Which preset? I have not hit unpredictable results so far when using it.
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Adq
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/08 15:49:37
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Every preset that uses Random LFO or Random as modulation source, it is easy to find them in sequence and pad sections.
post edited by Adq - 2015/07/08 15:56:01
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Resonant Serpent
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/08 15:50:37
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jih64
Beepster
jih64
2:43AM
Do any other DAW's out there allow a VST synth to be recorded in real-time?
REAPER
I'm sorry. This is getting a little silly. Reaper is an excellent tool but come on, man. You're on the Sonar forum. We are all aware it exists and many of us have tried it and even have it installed.
Personally I find Reaper useful in many ways but ONLY in the stuff that is lacking in my DAW of choice... Sonar. It is not, to me, a particularly creativity inducive environment like Sonar is. It is also severely lacking in all the extra creative tools (like the massive instrument and effects suite Sonar has).
Reaper is an excellent DAW (as in a recording, editing and perhaps mixing platform if you already have purchased all the necessary tools to compliment it) but its main competitors, as far as form and function are the PTs and Cubase's of the world. Not Sonar. Sonar is an animal all on its own and that's why it has such a rabid (if not maybe smallish) fanbase.
I say to you, in all respect, Cakewalk Sonar is not the demon you should be attempting to slay. If anything Sonar compliments Reaper (and vice versa).
It's a free forum and all that but really this persistence of yours to try and convince everyone that Reaper is a better solution to Sonar is misguided at best.
BTW... I was pleasantly surprised to learn that almost ALL of the tools I have acquired over the past few years work in Reaper (I thought they were locked). Despite that the Sonar environment, to me, is much prefarable to the Reaper environment. I would use Reaper for simple and reliable tracking on under powered systems and occasionally to access some of the features Sonar may not provide. Otherwise I will run back to the loving arms of Sonar every time.
And I used to use freaking Nuendo... supposedly creme de la creme when it comes to this stuff.
Peace, love, unity and high fibre granola.
No 1, I'll say what I like where and when I like, I am a Sonar user as well, and I am just pointing out the fact, you don't like it . . . tough. Obviously some aren't aware it exists, or that it has the function. I'm not attempting to slay anything, so don't try putting words in my mouth. Thank you
Actually, you're defying Justin's personal request that people not constantly talk about R_____ on other forums. Some of us have used R_____ heavily, and see it for what it is. Even the die hards are obviously pissed at what seems to be a lack of direction in R5 and bugs that have existed for years without getting fixed. Some examples: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=159635 Dozens of examples. http://forum.cockos.com/forumdisplay.php?f=22
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Resonant Serpent
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/08 15:53:37
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Reaktor has hundreds of ensembles that rely on random functions that can't be captured as MIDI. Only audio. Doesn't matter if you record the midi, because they sound different every time you start them up. That's the point. You play the synth or plug based on what you're hearing and guide it along.
My solution so far is to use another program to record the audio, as I hear it, then import back into my host.
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azslow3
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/08 17:13:05
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Adq
Every preset that uses Random LFO or Random as modulation source, it is easy to find them in sequence and pad sections.
I have got the idea now... It is getting interesting, I have not thought the situation is so bad. It looks like no one is really care about reproducibility, even without any Random components. I guess I have to spend some time looking into VST standard. May be in music no one cares at all and prefer to have "randomness" at places where that does not make make any sense 
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komposer
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/08 18:48:44
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Reaktor has a wav recorder.
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Anderton
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/08 18:51:17
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Adq
Anderton
I wasn't saying what you wanted, I was saying what I wanted. As I rarely use the drum pane or drum maps, I'd 1000% more like to see a drum machine mode for the PRV.
There is the same situation, there is a bunch of plug-ins that can do drum machine, so why add something that can be done already?
Not the same situation, Cakewalk hasn't had to spend development time on AD2.
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Anderton
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/08 19:08:13
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PilotGav
I have been missing this capability for years. I'm not going to bother going into WHY it's important to me as it seems that most posts in the thread are all about "It's not important to me so it shouldn't be important to you".
I don't think that accurately summarizes most posts at all. Most posts want to know WHY it's so important to others because I would venture to say it's not a normal part of most workflows. I delineated the four conditions that have to be met for real-time synth recording to be relevant, and it's a fairly limited set. The bottom line to me is that it's a basic function that should be in Sonar. If I want to capture a performance which has random variables and therefore has to be "recorded" to get the TAKE I want... I don't think that's asking much from a DAW.
Noel already explained why it's difficult to do. Meanwhile, as I've explained several times you can accomplish exactly what you want to do with SONAR. If you choose not to take advantage of functionality SONAR offers to do what you want because you'd rather have the functionality implemented differently, that's your choice. I use physical loopback to record live performances on SONAR into two spare channels, so this isn't a foreign concept to me. And FWIW, I also have to do that with Ableton Live if I want to record a live performance, because Solo button presses are not recorded in an Ableton Live project and they're a crucial part of my performances with that software. I could whine to Ableton endlessly about not recording solo button presses, and I've mentioned it to them as have many other people. But I got the same basic answer as Noel gave - it's so deep in the code they can't do anything about it. So instead of spending my time complaining, given that they're not going to do anything about it, I hook up two patch cords and record my Ableton Live sets. It's really not that hard. I suppose I could also insert Guitar Rig as an effect, not load any effects, and use its recorder.
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Anderton
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/08 19:15:59
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Resonant Serpent
Reaktor has hundreds of ensembles that rely on random functions that can't be captured as MIDI. Only audio. Doesn't matter if you record the midi, because they sound different every time you start them up. That's the point. You play the synth or plug based on what you're hearing and guide it along.
My solution so far is to use another program to record the audio, as I hear it, then import back into my host.
Seriously, try the external insert plug-in and two patch cords. I have a feeling you will  . But the WAV recorder sounds like a better solution. Again, let me emphasize I was brought up with modular synths, patch bays, and pedalboards, so patch cords are just part of my reality and I don't get bent out of shape if using them provides a solution. They're also what I use to turn DAWs into live performance loopers with as much delay time as I want, and for hardware processing like crazy stompboxes that have no digital equivalents. Maybe I need to write an article about external inserts not just to benefit SONAR users, but also Ableton Live users who use the Solo button and want to record their live performances.
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rabeach
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/08 22:16:36
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I make extensive use of the random generator via the modulation matrix in z3ta+, dimpro, and rapture. René Ceballos did some fine work; these synths are very powerful. I have been using the wave recorder plug for a long time. It does what I need. I react/improvise at the moment with the random generator and imho a thousand bounces will not bring that one moment of beauty back into the light. Maybe those of us that improvise use it in that fashion more than those who don't. I also use bounce to see what possible interesting results might occur but prefer my method of interacting in real time. (would be nice if I could set repeated bounce to 1000 and go to bed) :-)
post edited by rabeach - 2015/07/08 22:23:14
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maximumpower
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/08 22:51:12
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I had to loopback cables once with my interface to record the output of Sonar for a video on how to use Sonar. It worked well.
Another member here pointed me to VoiceMeeter which can do the loopback virtually. I made a test video to try it out and it worked as well as the cables did.
Would VoiceMeeter also work for recording the live synth?
There are examples of how VoiceMeeter can be used on their website and it looks like it is one of the use cases. If it does it virtually, then I don't think it goes back through the interface and therefore would not add any (or maybe a little) latency?
Just a thought.
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Anderton
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 00:12:24
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I'm pretty sure VoiceMeeter is Windows audio only, not ASIO. There are many non-ASIO solutions available for Windows.
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azslow3
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 04:31:07
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I am completely confused now... More that 50 years ago, when "randomness" was introduced in military/scientific/economical modelling on computers, they have realized that a possibility to produce exactly the same random sequence is a must, to debug/prove/resurrect all related calculations. The implementation is pretty simple: computer (pseudo)random generators have a seed, which is just a number. If you start generator with the same seed, it will produce "random" but still the same sequence. You change the seed - the sequence is different.
MIDI recording has no big sense without reproducibility feature in case there is any "external" influence on the sound (not only "random", can be simple wave over time). The solution is still the same, just "reset to X" signal is needed (X is a preset setting) to make MIDI reproducible and so still usable is such cases.
Yet I have not found any discussions about that topic, nor "reset all internal generators" option in Z3TA documentation... Have I overseen something or the whole music world has still not adopted that simple concept to solve annoying (as seen in this thread) problem?
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mettelus
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 04:38:11
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I am no a synth-heavy person, but Z3TA+2 will get randomness simply from oscillator configuration alone (synched, multi, etc.). If the oscillators are not synched to each other, the sound will be different each time the same key is hit (depending where it is hit in the cycle).
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pwalpwal
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 06:15:53
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azslow3
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 06:27:21
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That is what has convinced me to "change the lager".
Cakewalk has developed the DAW and the plug-in. Many Factory presets of this plug-in generate completely different sounds/volumes every time you freeze the synth. It is not about "subtle different sweet spot" or "different sound after moving the clip". It is about "why there is no sound on the place where it was, I have not changed anything!". That "feature" renders Sonar useless as a DAW for working with Z3Ta from the same house. I can not believe that was not noticed, much early that 2 years ago.
Before tests, I was almost sure that freezing the same untouched track will produce exactly the same result. Freezing is done with the whole track, always resetting all generators to some value on "time zero" sounds extremely logical for me and eliminates the problem.
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maximumpower
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 06:42:46
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Anderton
I'm pretty sure VoiceMeeter is Windows audio only, not ASIO. There are many non-ASIO solutions available for Windows.
It says it is ASIO unless I am misunderstanding what they mean by that
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 06:55:34
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azslow3
I am completely confused now... More that 50 years ago, when "randomness" was introduced in military/scientific/economical modelling on computers, they have realized that a possibility to produce exactly the same random sequence is a must, to debug/prove/resurrect all related calculations. The implementation is pretty simple: computer (pseudo)random generators have a seed, which is just a number. If you start generator with the same seed, it will produce "random" but still the same sequence. You change the seed - the sequence is different.
I think you are missing something - its not just the random seed that is involved. If a synth has a patch with an ever varying oscillator that drives one or more of its components (filter sweeps or arpeggiators) then the sound at any instant of time depends on when you play the note. On such patches since you can record the part on a track at different times from when the oscillator was started, it would sound different every time you played the key. Now when you play back the part the oscillator gets started at the beginning and sounds are generated based off the value of the oscillator at the time the note is triggered. However the start time of the oscillator is not guaranteed to be the same as when it was recorded so it will by definition sound different. This is the most common scenario with Z3TA etc. Another is some analog synths are modelled to mimic electronic components using various techniques and such synths would never sound the same twice.
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Karyn
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 07:03:41
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
If a synth has a patch with an ever varying oscillator that drives one or more of its components (filter sweeps or arpeggiators) then the sound at any instant of time depends on when you play the note. On such patches since you can record the part on a track at different times from when the oscillator was started, it would sound different every time you played the key. Now when you play back the part the oscillator gets started at the beginning and sounds are generated based off the value of the oscillator at the time the note is triggered. However the start time of the oscillator is not guaranteed to be the same as when it was recorded so it will by definition sound different.
And thus the request to record the live audio from soft synths so that it Does sound the same on each playback.
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mudgel
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 07:54:00
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Anderton
I'm pretty sure VoiceMeeter is Windows audio only, not ASIO. There are many non-ASIO solutions available for Windows.
Voicemeeter (Banana) (how's that for a version name) actually does ASIO.
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Anderton
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 09:57:19
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mudgel
Anderton
I'm pretty sure VoiceMeeter is Windows audio only, not ASIO. There are many non-ASIO solutions available for Windows.
Voicemeeter (Banana) (how's that for a version name) actually does ASIO.
Thanks for the correction. Good news!
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Anderton
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 09:58:54
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Karyn
And thus the request to record the live audio from soft synths so that it Does sound the same on each playback.
As pointed out in this thread, there are many ways to do that without having to add another feature. I still think development time is better spent on fixes and features instead of duplication.
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Doktor Avalanche 
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 10:12:13
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Woooe here comes the new staff view thread LOL.
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azslow3
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 10:32:30
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
I think you are missing something - its not just the random seed that is involved. If a synth has a patch with an ever varying oscillator that drives one or more of its components...
That is why I was writing "all generators", so ALL components which are not MIDI dependent but used in the sound generation, not only random seed.
However the start time of the oscillator is not guaranteed to be the same as when it was recorded so it will by definition sound different.
As you could notice, I was confused not my difference in notes and not by the different in sound from the same note sequence started later in time. But when I freeze the whole track/synth, everything is the same, including the distance from the time zero to each note in the whole project. So, in case "all generators" are reset at the beginning, freezing should produce the very same sound. I am not expert in VST writing, I do not know which exact information is available to plug-in. And so I can not guess what is the best way to guarantee reproducibility if let say someone has started recording not at time zero. But I think some reasonable compromise is possible even in this case (I remember there are already quite some tricks implemented, for instrument changes for example, it is a kind of the same). But even if not, at least what is already recorded and not changed should sound the same. MIDI track for such "instrument" means nothing otherwise. "Record pads from time zero" sounds like a big limitation, but current situation is just "impossible"...
post edited by azslow3 - 2015/07/09 10:39:07
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pwalpwal
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 10:45:46
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☄ Helpfulby jps 2015/07/09 11:14:27
Anderton
Karyn
And thus the request to record the live audio from soft synths so that it Does sound the same on each playback.
As pointed out in this thread, there are many ways to do that without having to add another feature. I still think development time is better spent on fixes and features instead of duplication.
as pointed out in this thread, it's not duplication, but rather it's optimising workflow by making routing more flexible - but you can call it a feature if you (or marketing) like :-) vote here: http://forum.cakewalk.com/Realtime-internal-recording-m3099239.aspx
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 11:04:26
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azslow3
As you could notice, I was confused not my difference in notes and not by the different in sound from the same note sequence started later in time. But when I freeze the whole track/synth, everything is the same, including the distance from the time zero to each note in the whole project. So, in case "all generators" are reset at the beginning, freezing should produce the very same sound.
I am not expert in VST writing, I do not know which exact information is available to plug-in. And so I can not guess what is the best way to guarantee reproducibility if let say someone has started recording not at time zero. But I think some reasonable compromise is possible even in this case (I remember there are already quite some tricks implemented, for instrument changes for example, it is a kind of the same). But even if not, at least what is already recorded and not changed should sound the same. MIDI track for such "instrument" means nothing otherwise. "Record pads from time zero" sounds like a big limitation, but current situation is just "impossible"...
I hear you. However as I mentioned in my post you can start recording at different times or even start playback at different times. There is no guarantee when you do so that the oscillator will start from the same spot. VST's are streamed data continuously so they do not get reset to zero each time you start playback from a different position like seeking on the transport. It would be unacceptable to do so since it causes other problems and even if we did it wouldn't solve this issue. When you freeze or bounce we start clean from the start point of the bounce. There is no guarantee that that time has anything to do with when the user recorded the part. This issue has nothing to do with VST. Its a general problem with any plugins that do time varying stuff dependent on the original start time. I would expect however in most cases that multiple fast bounces yield the same result for the actual notes since they are always starting from the same time - at least its that way with Z3TA. With the actual sound you can get subtle variations. Plugins (for better or worse) may not implement the randomness in a deterministic way so you could get variations...
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rabeach
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 11:36:23
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azslow3
I am completely confused now... More that 50 years ago, when "randomness" was introduced in military/scientific/economical modelling on computers, they have realized that a possibility to produce exactly the same random sequence is a must, to debug/prove/resurrect all related calculations. The implementation is pretty simple: computer (pseudo)random generators have a seed, which is just a number. If you start generator with the same seed, it will produce "random" but still the same sequence. You change the seed - the sequence is different.
MIDI recording has no big sense without reproducibility feature in case there is any "external" influence on the sound (not only "random", can be simple wave over time). The solution is still the same, just "reset to X" signal is needed (X is a preset setting) to make MIDI reproducible and so still usable is such cases.
Yet I have not found any discussions about that topic, nor "reset all internal generators" option in Z3TA documentation... Have I overseen something or the whole music world has still not adopted that simple concept to solve annoying (as seen in this thread) problem?
That would indeed solve the problem for me but I'm not aware that anyone has implemented it. edit... missed Noel's post above so I guess it would not.
post edited by rabeach - 2015/07/09 11:50:42
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BobF
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 11:46:23
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Beepster
Don't mistake my last post as dismissing the validity of these types of requests. It was about the seemingly persistent promotion of another DAW on this forum by one specific user. Not sure what that is all about. Just been seeing a lot of it.
I don't see the "Reaper can do it" posts as promoting Reaper. I see it as rightfully pointing out that a competing product has the capability. I would gladly trade everything Sonar has that Reaper is lacking in to have Sonar's UI bolted onto the front of Reaper. THAT would be a most excellent starting point for opening up feature requests. IMO, of course. Other shoe & foot? I can't believe how long Justin has allowed the UI & menu inconsistencies in Reaper go without being addressed. There are some users that have done great themes, but I HATE relying on other users to provide me with functionality that I believe should be part of the core package. THAT is the biggest reason I came back to Sonar after switching to Reaper for a couple of years. The flow isn't there for me. I LOVE the way I interact with Sonar. Back to the OP. I don't know the architecture of Sonar well enough to do more than guess, and my guess is that the code base is very old and complex, making things that seem simple to users not so simple to implement.
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 13:18:07
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
I would expect however in most cases that multiple fast bounces yield the same result for the actual notes since they are always starting from the same time - at least its that way with Z3TA. With the actual sound you can get subtle variations. Plugins (for better or worse) may not implement the randomness in a deterministic way so you could get variations...
Although note point 2... http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2652130
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/07/09 13:24:30
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azslow3
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2015/07/09 16:21:29
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
I would expect however in most cases that multiple fast bounces yield the same result for the actual notes since they are always starting from the same time - at least its that way with Z3TA.
Z3TA+ 2. Factory Content. Pads. Waitress WRJ. Record 20-30 second. Freeze once... Freeze second time... You will see what I mean without even listening anything. To make arguments about the rest I have to look precisely into VST SDK.
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