sharke
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Really incredible that we still can't record a soft synth's output in real time
What I'm talking about is recording the performance of a VSTi so that all of the nuances of your performance are recorded in real time. If you set an audio track's output to a soft synth (as you would normally when creating a synth track), the record button disappears. Cakewalk, in their eternal wisdom, decided that nobody could possibly ever want to record a soft synth. I know we can record a MIDI performance and parameter automation and bounce it down to audio (or freeze it), but that's not what I'm talking about. There are some VSTi parameters that cannot be automated, for instance a lot of the groove ensembles in Reaktor have buttons and parameters on the GUI that cannot be mapped to a controller. For instance, I'm using one now (Limelite) which has solo/mute buttons for the various drums. They cannot be mapped to a controller, and I really need to be able to turn these on and off on the fly to record a performance. There are loads of other reasons why someone would want to record a VSTi performance directly to audio as opposed to bouncing down a MIDI performance. I know there are various workarounds, like using a wave recording plugin. But come on Cake...this seems like really basic routing functionality that should have been fixed years ago.
post edited by sharke - 2013/08/07 21:56:16
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 11:47:12
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I use a piece of Monster Cable as a work around.
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konradh
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 11:47:35
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Wait, so if I wanted to record a piano part using Ivory, you are saying I could only record the MIDI and then freeze or bounce and that I could not go direct to audio?
I never thought of that. That doesn't bother me at all but it is a weird limitation. I can certainly record external synths directly.
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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sharke
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 12:50:14
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konradh
Wait, so if I wanted to record a piano part using Ivory, you are saying I could only record the MIDI and then freeze or bounce and that I could not go direct to audio?
I never thought of that. That doesn't bother me at all but it is a weird limitation. I can certainly record external synths directly.
Yep, let's say you have an audio track with a VSTi input. Take a look at it...the record button ain't there! I mean you either need that functionality or you don't, like a lot of stuff, but it does seem very strange that it's not there.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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sharke
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 12:51:19
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mike_mccue
I use a piece of Monster Cable as a work around.
There's way too many "workarounds" associated with Sonar though, don't you think?
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 12:52:26
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Just think of the Monster Cable as an analog goodness emulator and it almost seems like a feature.
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Lanceindastudio
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 12:59:00
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☄ Helpfulby jbow 2015/07/07 15:07:31
It would be useful when using plugins that do not record automation.
I have run into this multiple times.
Catch the live performance as audio. ;) WE need it.
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sharke
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 13:10:17
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There is also the Vonexgo Recorder and Tape It, but we really shouldn't have to use cables or 3rd party plugins for this.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 14:16:32
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Now that Reason 7 has midi out I tried to record the audio output from a plugin in Sonar in real time using the midi from Reason. Total frustration  . Grum.
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mmorgan
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 14:20:26
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Have gone the feature request route yet? I'd start there and I would agree that it seems like a good thing to be able to do.
Regards,
Mike Win8(64), Sonar X3e(64) w/ RME Fireface UFX.
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gswitz
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 14:31:46
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Mike, you made me laugh on a bad day. Thanks!
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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sharke
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 14:33:25
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mmorgan
Have gone the feature request route yet? I'd start there and I would agree that it seems like a good thing to be able to do.
Regards,
I just submitted one. I have a sneaking sussppiiccion that I may have submitted one months ago, but hey if so another one can't possibly hurt.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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gswitz
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 14:48:24
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I think I remember other people asking for this over the years. As you can achieve it by using a loop back, I think sonar /cakewalk view it as a lower priority.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 14:58:11
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I should add that when I started (before) using sonar this was how bounced tracks and it took me a while to get used to using bounce to tracks.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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MachineClaw
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 15:06:46
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the soft synth is not an audio track, it's capturing midi controller data - note played, parameter tweaked etc.
why not create another track set to audio and have that source as the output from the synth?
you hit record and both tracks record - one records the midi and the audio track records the output of the synth.
you can add a bus and capture the bus pre effects even to capture raw audio for mixing later on.
if there is midi data that is not captured and the soft synth is manually tweaked but not recorded then the audio and the midi will not sync cause now the audio track has captured audio of live performance but the midi does not have this data. could cause some problems later on if you moved things around or had to change up something - not a huge biggy but the two tracks will not be exact.
I'm not sure I understand the problem though as the program will do sort of what you are asking to be done. I think.
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sharke
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 15:44:09
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MachineClaw
the soft synth is not an audio track, it's capturing midi controller data - note played, parameter tweaked etc. why not create another track set to audio and have that source as the output from the synth? you hit record and both tracks record - one records the midi and the audio track records the output of the synth. you can add a bus and capture the bus pre effects even to capture raw audio for mixing later on. if there is midi data that is not captured and the soft synth is manually tweaked but not recorded then the audio and the midi will not sync cause now the audio track has captured audio of live performance but the midi does not have this data. could cause some problems later on if you moved things around or had to change up something - not a huge biggy but the two tracks will not be exact. I'm not sure I understand the problem though as the program will do sort of what you are asking to be done. I think.
The problem is that when you set an audio track's input to the soft synth, Sonar removes the record arm button. It's as if it's forbidding you to record the output.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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sharke
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 15:46:30
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gswitz
I think I remember other people asking for this over the years. As you can achieve it by using a loop back, I think sonar /cakewalk view it as a lower priority.
You shouldn't have to use an outside cable to achieve basic routing that should be possible in the DAW. I can't think of any reason why they'd disable it unless there's some inherent design flaw in the program structure that would make its implementation problematic.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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sharke
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 15:46:30
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gswitz
I think I remember other people asking for this over the years. As you can achieve it by using a loop back, I think sonar /cakewalk view it as a lower priority.
You shouldn't have to use an outside cable to achieve basic routing that should be possible in the DAW. I can't think of any reason why they'd disable it unless there's some inherent design flaw in the program structure that would make its implementation problematic.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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mmorgan
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 15:54:19
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Hey sharke: Is there a way for a person to second (i.e. increment..FR++) the FR? Does it take a FR number? If not I'll go submit one also. I think it sounds like solid idea.
Regards,
Mike Win8(64), Sonar X3e(64) w/ RME Fireface UFX.
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gswitz
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 15:55:08
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I understand. I also was frustrated by this at one time. My interface has a loop back function, but that isn't too your point .
I actually liked doing real time mixes where I rehearsed the fader movements. Mixing was a different and more reckless art in those days.
Yes, I understand. Yes it would be welcome . No I probably wouldn't use it.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 15:57:00
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The most obvious reason to prevent loop back is to save our speakers and our ears from feedback.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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sharke
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 16:02:56
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mmorgan
Hey sharke: Is there a way for a person to second (i.e. increment..FR++) the FR? Does it take a FR number? If not I'll go submit one also. I think it sounds like solid idea. Regards,
I don't think it gives you a reference number. However I should imagine all submissions are categorized and the more popular ones are given more weight.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 16:24:14
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It should be available and I hope they make it standard in future versions. Studio One can do it now in their latest update. Buses can be routed to any track input and it is handy for several reasons.
Some VST synths do not repeat themselves with the same midi data and it is in this situation it is very handy. Patching external cables is one way of doing it but it can be done internally. It is dangerous but common sense has to prevail in this situation.
It is nice too to bounce an entire mix ITB and have the option of being able to tweak faders on the fly too. I didn't think I would use it but once I got it, I have, and it has been very worthwhile.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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bvideo
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 17:10:44
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☄ Helpfulby robert_e_bone 2013/08/07 20:34:51
Anyone urgently wanting to record softsynth audio output on the scale of maybe a track at a time could try this workaround that uses real time bounce.
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sharke
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 18:49:22
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bvideo
Anyone urgently wanting to record softsynth audio output on the scale of maybe a track at a time could try this workaround that uses real time bounce.
That's an interesting workaround...I could sort of get it to work, the problem being is that sometimes your "performance" involves elements of the VSTi's GUI which can't be controlled with a controller. And when Sonar is bouncing, you cannot access the GUI.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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bvideo
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/07 20:16:40
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"... when Sonar is bouncing, you cannot access the GUI."
Rats!
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Living Room Rocker
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/08 00:35:09
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It would be nice if SONAR had the option to record a softsynth to audio in real time. I have a Saffire 24 Pro (DSP) which allows me to insert a virtual loop back into SONAR. That is how I am able to record a softsynth's audio output on the fly (capturing real time playback as audio). I specifically shopped for an interface/soundcard that had this specific functionality. So, you can say, 'why doesn't my soundcard have a virtual loopback?'
Kind regards,
Living Room Rocker
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ULTRABRA
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/08 03:01:18
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I've wanted this function numerous times, and its REALLY annoying that its not possible from within Sonar (as it is with several other DAWS eg Ableton, Cubase). I wanted for example to record the output of Stylus RMX when its playing back live a 8 channel multi - so there is NO MIDI in this case, and its a right pain to make 8 midi tracks in Sonar and route them to Stylus RMX channels, then pull over the midi from Stylus onto each track. Anyone who has tied that will know what I mean. I just wanted to press record and catch it.
HP Z420, Intel Xeon E5-1620@ 3600MHz, 8GB RAM, Windows 7 Pro 64-bit, Soundcard : Focusrite Saffire 24, & Sonar : Producer X3 My Soundcloud
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ULTRABRA
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/08 03:02:51
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Living Room Rocker
It would be nice if SONAR had the option to record a softsynth to audio in real time. I have a Saffire 24 Pro (DSP) which allows me to insert a virtual loop back into SONAR. That is how I am able to record a softsynth's audio output on the fly (capturing real time playback as audio). I specifically shopped for an interface/soundcard that had this specific functionality. So, you can say, 'why doesn't my soundcard have a virtual loopback?'
Kind regards,
Living Room Rocker
Saffire 24 Pro has a loopback which allows this? How does that work in Sonar - what is the process setting up the necessary tracks?
HP Z420, Intel Xeon E5-1620@ 3600MHz, 8GB RAM, Windows 7 Pro 64-bit, Soundcard : Focusrite Saffire 24, & Sonar : Producer X3 My Soundcloud
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ston
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Re: Really incredible that we still can't record a synth's output in real time
2013/08/08 03:12:01
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Perhaps it's done to avoid feedback loops or something?
I just plumb an ASIO out channel back into an ASIO in channel on the soundcard to do this. Makes it easy to set up dub-style feedback loops too (Craig Anderton does a similar thing he calls a 'looper' in his X1 video).
I usually record a mix in this manner too - perhaps it's a bit old fashioned of me, but I feel more comfortable playing the entire piece through in real-time and recording the master bus back into a stereo audio track as opposed to the 'export' type function.
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