Helpful ReplyRefresh and bring back Project 5

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/07/19 14:06:22 (permalink)
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Brando
To add/clarify re: touch - using the little "+" symbol in the FX bin's header to add an effect to the effects bin via touch is not practical (almost not possible) and almost constitutes a "nonsensical" aspect of touch implementation.
For this feature only (adding an effect to an effects bin) - splitting the header in half - with the left half devoted to the "Bypass Rack" button, and the right half devoted to "+" (show rack menu) might work - but even there the header itself is so thin to make inadvertent contact with the topmost effect in the bin inevitable. (There is an option to widen all strips, but no equivalent to scale up all elements.
I am curious - Noel - as a SONAR Platinum user - do you use Touch?

 
Its dead simple to add an effect. Open the plugin browser and drag an effect from there to the console or track to add the plugin.

Noel Borthwick
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#31
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/07/19 14:13:50 (permalink)
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FZ1
Hi Noel,
Thanks for chiming in. Prehaps you could clarify the direction of Sonars touch features.
I recall when X2 came out. James Oliver demonstrated the touch features on a Sonicstate video.
He said something along the lines of "To do any editing in Sonar you will always need to use a mouse and keyboard"
Is that how you see the development of Sonar touch?
 
That would be the nub of why I feel the development of touch as being a bit odd. Wouldn't the logical goal of a touch interface be the full use of the program, rather than relying on a external item of hardware to edit anything?
 
However there is something you said that I dont fully understand, but might be at the root of my frustration.
"To handle multitouch we cannot rely on the base windows fallback since that doesn't support multitouch"
 
Does this mean that implementation of multitouch is mutually exclusive with windows touch right click emulation?
So you can add multitouch features like the on screen keyboard, but at the expense of having a right click touch menu in the arrangement window?
 
That means that the things that I had assumed to have been crippled deliberately, are actually just the result of implementing multitouch. And I'm just woefully underestimating how long it will take to make Sonar a complete multitouch program. Many many years.
Sonar Unobtainium edition?
Is this the case?
 
Back on topic. If Sonars step sequencer allowed automation of vst parameters rather than being limited to midi spec messages only, or the matrix allowed for direct editing of cell contents, it really would be an improvement on P5. These are still superior in P5, especially if you are using a touchscreen.
 
Cheers J

 
By windows fallback I mean the default windows implementation of touch which you get without implementing anything. That only applies to common controls and mouse messages which get translated. You don't get multitouch support like dragging multiple faders in the console etc.
Click and hold to get context menus isnt implemented presently but I imagine it could be done. I think that might interfere with swipe gestures so it would take some design.
 
Editing is planned at some point but we dont have a time line. There still aren't enough users requesting touch enhancements since many don't have touchscreens.

Noel Borthwick
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#32
AT
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/07/19 14:56:21 (permalink)
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Ah, I love revenant threads.  What was great about P5 was the simplicity of the thing and how tuned it was for doing loop-based music.  It is harder to do the same things in SONAR, tho not impossible.  But I realize the impossibility of integrating the code into modern SONAR.  It ain't going to happen.
 
But what about the Scratchpad idea - I realize it is OS but it is exactly that kinda function SONAR needs and would open up the live (pun intended) functionality.  A separate synth or function where you can drag and drop and open clips and acid file s and waves on an expandable (both timeline and vertical) matrix where those clips etc. are represented by pads (or blobs, whatever).  You can use the matrix this way but it is a lot harder than I would like, and the matrix boxes aren't really expandable in size w/o resizing the whole matrix (backwards in my opinion - the boxes should themselves should be expandable and the rest of the matrix swells to meet that size).
 
I need to post the template I have for it, where the matrix runs along the bottom of the timeline and is useable and (available) yet you can still see the timeline itself to kinda keep track where you are in the linear song.  Most of my attempts have played lead guitar running through it and singing rather than being simply loops and repeats.  So any tempo and key changes in the timeline work on the loops I make from the matrix, but it is a pain to go back and change the key of the original files and then integrate that new clip back into the matrix (so much so I haven't done it, which is why being able to edit the audio [and midi!] within the box would not just be cool but essential).  which means I now have to perform live shows w/o any keys changes.
 
I think something like that, well implemented of course, would change the way users think about using sonar.  I know more than a few guitarists etc. that would love to singer/songwrite their stuff live but don't have the chops to be a one man band at one time and have to much integrity to like to play to backing tracks.  Give them something to touch and feel on the computer and sing and play once the rhythm is established.  Something as simple as P5, but more touchy like Scratchpad they could step through w/ a pedal or their nose or whatever.
 
Love to see what you could come up w/ that idea, Noel et al.
 
@
post edited by AT - 2015/07/19 15:05:39

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b rock
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/07/20 12:39:02 (permalink)
+2 (2)
Project5 had much cooler T-shirts.
And packaging.  Remember packaging?
#34
AT
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/07/20 12:52:51 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Mr Rock, I just put my well-used P5 T-shirt into the do not wear drawer.  It seems to have shrunk in the last ... 10 years.  I'll save it and bequeath it to the Cake Museum.  Much cooler than any SONAR shirts or any other DAW.  I dont' remember much about packaging, but I still have the manual and it is very ... thin yet complete.
 
@

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http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
 
there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/07/22 00:07:54 (permalink)
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Brando
To add/clarify re: touch - using the little "+" symbol in the FX bin's header to add an effect to the effects bin via touch is not practical (almost not possible) and almost constitutes a "nonsensical" aspect of touch implementation.
For this feature only (adding an effect to an effects bin) - splitting the header in half - with the left half devoted to the "Bypass Rack" button, and the right half devoted to "+" (show rack menu) might work - but even there the header itself is so thin to make inadvertent contact with the topmost effect in the bin inevitable. (There is an option to widen all strips, but no equivalent to scale up all elements.
I am curious - Noel - as a SONAR Platinum user - do you use Touch?

 
Its dead simple to add an effect. Open the plugin browser and drag an effect from there to the console or track to add the plugin.

It's even easier with right click. Right click, choose. Bang. But then you'd need a right click option. other than a mouse.

Brando
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#36
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/07/22 08:53:27 (permalink)
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Thanks Noel for setting it straight from the top.
 
 
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/07/22 09:38:01 (permalink)
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
 
Editing is planned at some point but we dont have a time line. There still aren't enough users requesting touch enhancements since many don't have touchscreens.


No disrespect intended, but I think this strategy blows. Features get rolled out and then are left in a state of partial implementation. Exactly how bugs have been left untouched in staff view for years. This is why (IMO) some of these issues become sources of such user frustration, Cakewalk rolled out touch, I bit and bought a big touchscreen monitor (as did others), believing that touch implementation would develop into something useful. You may think it is acceptable to use a mouse to augment touch or (as you point out above) to drag from another view. It is not, for me. I prefer to simply not use touch than to change a workflow to accommodate a half baked implementation. As I have mentioned previously, touch works perfectly outside of SONAR.

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#38
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/20 16:03:44 (permalink)
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The unreplaced utility of P5 for me is the core workflow: 1) having a pattern window in which you create what is essentially a MIDI loop, which you then place in the timeline where you want it to manipulate as needed, and 2) the way MIDI is handled in the aforementioned pattern window. My entire creative output from that period was made possible by that workflow, and Sonar allows it only through more circuitous steps. I couldn't care less about its laughably bad (even compared to contemporaneous Sonar) 'painted' automation or its outdated audio engine or touchscreen. I simply can't work in Sonar like I work in P5*.
 
*I own but haven't installed the latest Sonar, which supposedly has MIDI improvements, but I've been hearing that for several Sonar versions now and having looked at the promo videos I'm still not hopeful that they've gotten close.
 
Anyway, that's my $0.02. And as others have said, thanks to Noel for chiming in. I want to start a new album soon and my plan is to use P5 rewired into Sonar Platinum, running on Win10. Wish me luck!


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mettelus
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/20 16:44:27 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
[...] Upgrading it would essentially mean transplanting SONAR's engine into it. [...]




So might look like this when done?
 

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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/20 16:47:16 (permalink)
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More like... 
 



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wetdentist
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/22 10:34:33 (permalink)
+1 (1)
i love Sonar Platinum, but for some reason, i do not use it as a pattern-based sequencer.  weird.
 
my replacement for P5 (i was devastated when it died), when it comes to my pattern-based sequencing, ended up being Maschine.  i wish NI could handle this job better, as arranging patterns in Maschine is terrible (while making the patterns, themselves, is awesome).  P5 was incredible at both pattern creation & arranging of patterns, but needed to become 64 bit and multi-core aware.  
 
yeah, i own FL Studio, and i don't care what anyone says (loudly at KVR), it doesn't sound as good as other DAWS i use.  there is a thin layer of mud in it.
 
it would be nice if Sonar added a pattern-based sequencer that functioned hand-in-hand w/its current linear layout that was as easy & intuitive to use as P5, but the step sequencer does not do it for me, at all.
 
 

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BobF
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/22 10:48:25 (permalink)
+1 (1)
wetdentist
i love Sonar Platinum, but for some reason, i do not use it as a pattern-based sequencer.  weird.
 
my replacement for P5 (i was devastated when it died), when it comes to my pattern-based sequencing, ended up being Maschine.  i wish NI could handle this job better, as arranging patterns in Maschine is terrible (while making the patterns, themselves, is awesome).  P5 was incredible at both pattern creation & arranging of patterns, but needed to become 64 bit and multi-core aware.  
 
yeah, i own FL Studio, and i don't care what anyone says (loudly at KVR), it doesn't sound as good as other DAWS i use.  there is a thin layer of mud in it.
 
it would be nice if Sonar added a pattern-based sequencer that functioned hand-in-hand w/its current linear layout that was as easy & intuitive to use as P5, but the step sequencer does not do it for me, at all.
 
 




I've suggested more than once that getting the pattern/MIDI editor function either implanted into Sonar, or made as a stand-alone external editor, would be a fawesome thing for Sonar.

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#43
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/22 11:41:35 (permalink)
+1 (1)
BobF
 
 
I've suggested more than once that getting the pattern/MIDI editor function either implanted into Sonar, or made as a stand-alone external editor, would be a fawesome thing for Sonar.




P5's pattern window as a Sonar plugin would be worth more to me than any meticulously-modeled dinosaur hardware ProChannel ever could.


#44
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/22 14:03:39 (permalink)
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Project 5 has been labelled a dead duck by the powers that be. How could Sonar's pattern based modules be improved to get you the functionality of P5?

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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/22 16:26:07 (permalink)
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ampfixer
Project 5 has been labelled a dead duck by the powers that be. How could Sonar's pattern based modules be improved to get you the functionality of P5?




Make them look/feel/function like the P5 tools 

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#46
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/22 20:08:28 (permalink)
+1 (1)
TBH, nearly all music has repetitive, loop-type content in it, and a workflow that allowed for easy manipulation would be hot. Geist has sort of filled this gap for me, but getting samples into that on the fly are not elegant (drag/drop from SONAR cannot be used effectively unless it exists in the media browser first). Without a substantial overhaul, I am not sure the internal SS/Matrix would fit this bill but it would be incredibly useful to many.
 
Scoping out the extent of that overhaul might be worth the effort though, as key gaps to workflow (even with 3rd party options) could be addressed.

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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/23 01:15:42 (permalink)
+2 (2)
I have to admit that since owning Geist I haven't touched the step sequencer much at all, in fact Geist quickly became my "DAW within a DAW." Yes the sample browser is a little crappy but I've gotten used to it (and Geist 2 reportedly has major improvements). It's just so easy to implement and manage pattern based beats in Geist, in fact any kind of sample triggering. Sonar definitely needs more work to cater to the electronic crowd. I really don't know how I'd manage without Geist these days. Sometimes I have 3 or 4 instances of it in a project, each using all 8 engines. I sequence patterns in Geist's song mode, and then drag them out into a MIDI track for further tweaking. If only Geist handled things like time signature changes, and if only Sonar didn't throw out Geist's song position when toggling loops on and off (major annoyance), then they would be a marriage made in heaven. But I would genuinely love Sonar to have more Geist-like functionality.
 
You can see their dilemma. I have a rough estimate in my head of what kind of crowd Sonar appeals to from being active on this forum for over 3 years, and it's an older crowd than other DAW's. There's not a lot of love for EDM or electronica, I would say that maybe 80% or over of the users here work with traditional instrument based audio projects, perhaps supplementing with the odd VSTi for sampled instruments and the odd synth part. So on the one hand, it would be a risk putting more of their resources into a Geist/Ableton style workflow with the current user base as it is. On the other hand, they have this huge market of young EDM bedroom producers that they're going to have to tap into to compete in the coming decade. 
 
I have watched countless EDM and electronica based tutorials and courses online. And not one of them used Sonar. It's virtually all Logic, Ableton or Pro Tools. 

James
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#48
AT
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/23 09:55:40 (permalink)
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Yea, sharke, SONAR wants to be all things to everybody, but not everything to all  people.  Thus the half-finished good ideas like MATRIX (or notation in SONAR).  It is enough to work with, but not the most efficient method to do any single task.  And you are right, the typical user (at least from the forums over the last 10 years) are guitarists who is doing home recording.  Hence Cake has spent money and time on drums (the big bugbear of home rock).  And that was the problem w/ P5 - it was for synthesists and loopers mostly, not the traditional picker.  And it did bring in some new people and hopefully some of them stuck with SONAR.
 
A lot of us back at the death of P5 hoped we got a plug-in equivalent for those aspects we each liked the most.  I'm sure Cake knows there are users who would switch from "live" to a more full-featured, linear DAW like SONAR if they had a better Matrix.  The powers that be have said they are working on upgrading the Matrix, something you never hear about notation.  And I can't think of any major "feature"changes SONAR can implement other than a better notation system or upgrading the Matrix.  Let's hope that the matrix gets an update - maybe for the 1st year anniversary.
 
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/24 06:11:31 (permalink)
+1 (1)
wetdentist
my replacement for P5 (i was devastated when it died), when it comes to my pattern-based sequencing, ended up being Maschine.  i wish NI could handle this job better, as arranging patterns in Maschine is terrible (while making the patterns, themselves, is awesome).  P5 was incredible at both pattern creation & arranging of patterns, but needed to become 64 bit and multi-core aware.  
 

 
I was about to post something very similar, I too feel that Maschine has replaced P5 in my heart.  Having been a fan of music tech for many years, P5 was the first that I was actually able to get my head around and start using productively.  I then thought I'd be fine moving up to Sonar 8.5, but no, it was too much for me.  When X1 came out with a wealth of videos and webinars, I really got into it and dropped P5, but really missed the pattern/clip based workflow.
 
Willy Jones from Cakewalk asked "Is there something or a part of P5's workflow that you are missing in SONAR?".  Well in P5 it suited me to be able to simply and easily view all the pattern/clips I'd created and drop them where I wanted on the timeline.  That's it.
 
Obviously this type of workflow suits me and I have become much more productive with Maschine because it works that way (I'm not intending this to be a NI advert btw).  You can create a number of different versions of a pattern/clip - copy, modify and drop them in where you want.  I export the groups to Sonar X3 to apply finishing touches.
 
You could easily dismiss this thread with the thought that it's all about dance music - I myself tend towards ambient stuff, however as Mettelus pointed out "TBH, nearly all music has repetitive, loop-type content in it, and a workflow that allowed for easy manipulation would be hot."
 
 
post edited by SGodfrey - 2015/11/24 07:10:02

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#50
BobF
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/24 08:45:30 (permalink)
0
In addition to all of the other positive things, P5 came with this as a demo
 
https://dl.dropboxusercon...20Are%20That%20Man.mp3

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wetdentist
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/24 09:48:43 (permalink)
+1 (1)
really though, how hard would it be for Cakewalk to add pattern-based lanes/tracks where we could drag and drop patterns into the timeline from a project's pattern browser or something so that linear sequencing could work hand-in-hand with pattern-based sequencing? the icing on the cake, i guess, would be to be able to drag-and-drop patterns built in Maschine into the Sonar pattern browser for easy placement into Sonar projects.  
 
one of the problems currently with using Maschine as a vst in Sonar is that it places too much stress on the first core of the processor, even though Maschine itself is multi-core aware.  Sonar doesn't seem to be able to spread the load.

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#52
Notecrusher
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/26 04:01:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby wetdentist 2015/11/26 10:23:19
+1 (1)
Would the arranger track feature in Studio One give you guys the pattern capabilities you're looking for? I have high hopes we will get something along those lines in 2016 based on the very high level of interest shown for that feature and the fact that Noel showed up here
http://forum.cakewalk.com...e-window-m3104937.aspx
asking for specific feedback on what folks would want out of such a feature (and got a unanimous answer).
 
BTW If you haven't voted for that FR please do!
 
 
#53
Notecrusher
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/26 21:08:23 (permalink)
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It looks like Studio One's step sequencer is the same style as the P5 pattern editor, yes?
https://www.youtube.com/w...6yCvQyDDBV&index=5
#54
mettelus
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/27 01:07:45 (permalink)
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That looks semi-painful to me. I think most folks are seeking a looper that records real-time and overwrites previous events in the same "step" (meaning quantize is not used so swing is captured). That SS strikes me like SONAR's PRV, and what bothers me specifically is "programming a rest." I look to a SS to program events, all "rests" are implied.

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BobF
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/27 06:24:38 (permalink)
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I think the rest in the vid is the same idea as 'step forward' when step recording with Sonar ... which is different from using the 'step sequencer'
 

Bob  --
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#56
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/27 16:53:46 (permalink)
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P5's pattern editor looks like a PRV too. How does it function that is different? Why is it so beloved?
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BobF
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2015/11/27 17:24:39 (permalink)
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That's hard to verbalize ... to me, the whole package that is P5 works really.  The pieces fit.  The flow makes sense and doesn't surprise you with inconsistencies.
 
It was/isn't perfect for all types of projects, but damn it's slick.  IMHO, of course.

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jprny
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2016/04/16 15:41:57 (permalink)
+1 (1)
I'm just a hobbyist and have used everything from Pro Audio to X3, but I made more music and had more fun with Project 5 than any of them.  It was just simpler to throw something together and then decide whether to put more effort into it or do something else.  I have never had the time to figure out how to make SONAR that easy if it's even possible.  I bought Live in hopes of using it like that, but haven't had the time to get up to speed on that either.
 
To steal a few ideas from this thread, here's an idea.  Resurrect P5 (exact same UI) with touch implementation targeted at tablet devices like Surface.  I'm a developer, and I can tell you that UI design is a huge component of development and it's really done here.  Porting the GUI to use x64 and using SONAR's audio engine really seems doable.  I agree that P5 was a bit before it's time.  I really think there's a market for it.
 
My 12 year-old son loves loop-based music and I want to help him learn how to create some.  I don't even know where to start with him except maybe getting P5 running again or getting something like Maschine.  I haven't tried matrix yet.  Suggestions?
 
Re putting the feature in SONAR, I'm not sure that makes sense.  Most P5 users don't need much of SONAR, so why add complexity and cost.  Of course, making it integrate with SONAR would be a huge plus.  Start a project in P5 and move it to SONAR if you want to do more with it.
jpr
 
#59
ampfixer
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Re: Refresh and bring back Project 5 2016/04/16 18:52:09 (permalink)
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Why don't you buy the rights to P5 from Cakewalk? They aren't going to do anything with it.

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 I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps.
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