Helpful ReplyAn arrange window

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Jon Bryson
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2014/10/16 16:47:27 (permalink)
4.9 (63)

An arrange window

I've also put in a feature request for this, but the idea is that the user can designate for example all tracks and data between marker 1 and marker 2 be designated as a single block called "Intro", marker 2 and marker 3 as a block called "vs 1", and on and on.  I would like to be able to set the marker to the barline and it automatically recognizes and captures pickup notes.  Then I would like an 'arrange' window or screen that these designated selections are a shown as blocks on a timeline that I can drag and drop to rearrange the order and try different versions of the song. 
I saw something like this in a competing product that I demoed a while back.  I don't want to learn a new product, I would just like to see this in Sonar :-)
#1
Loptec
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Re: An arrange window 2014/10/21 11:00:56 (permalink)
+4 (4)
Something like this would be really nice! :)
 
What would you want the blocks to do with clips that overlap these markers?
 
For example: If you've got a guitar recorded on the refrain and this riff ends with a chord that strikes at the first beat on the bar right after the refrain and sustains for a few secs... If you then take the refrain-block and copy and paste it later in the song, what should happen with the part of the clip that is outside of the block?
 
What I'd like to see is that the whole clip gets included, but also that it's gets truncated where the marker is located. You can then paste the block just before any other block without risking this clip to overlap a clip in the next block.
 
If there's nothing on this track in the next block, you can expand the clip to it's full length again, assuming that the block after is in the right key for the last chord to sound good.. :P

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#2
Jon Bryson
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Re: An arrange window 2014/10/21 11:45:14 (permalink)
+2 (2)
On the front side I would prefer that the blocks auto select any part of a clip that is less than a full measure at the beginning (to catch pick up notes) since I would want those most of the time when copying.  On the back side of the clip it could be trickier due to fading chords, etc.  I think your solution sounds like a good one.  I wonder if a selectable option could be available to have it truncate or autoselect any clip that continues for up to a measure after the block ends.
 
When I saw this feature in another DAW that I demoed I really thought it was a workflow enchancement.
#3
Brando
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Re: An arrange window 2014/10/21 12:19:56 (permalink)
+2 (2)
+1
Personally would love to see the arranger as a header track which could always remain pinned (but scrollable) to the top of a view in track view, or be hidden like any other track when desired. (Feel free to straighten me out if this isnt what you had in mind.)

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#4
lfm
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Arranger tracks ala Cubase and StudioOne v3 2015/03/06 11:59:34 (permalink)
+80 (48)
The basic idea is:
a) create an arranger track
b) set up any number of time ranges in a project. A range cover alls tracks as far as I remember and each get it's own nametag. Cubase implemented range markers in the same system as normal markers - with it's own style.
c) add named ranges as you want to a playlist on arranger track.
Each added range can be put anywhere in playlist, and each also be set to x repetitions.
 
Very useful to decide final flow of a project.
Easy to add extra parts at the end of the project, but insert it anywhere on arranger track.
Add a longer intro, extra breaks, extra chorus etc - or anything you come up with.
 
In Cubase you can save different arranger setups and also allow to either play project from arranger track, or generate completely new projects from any saved preset you made in arranger.
 
Even Cubase Elements have this feature.
But if Cake implement this I buy up to any version to get it.
Really neat...
post edited by lfm - 2015/05/20 15:42:55

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#5
sharke
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/03/06 15:35:25 (permalink)
+16 (16)
I agree, Sonar really needs to be more user friendly when it comes to arranging. The current way of moving huge chunks of a project around by lassoing and dragging them, or by inserting or deleting time, are fraught with problems, finicky and inconvenient. Being able to define song parts or "scenes" and order them on an arranger track would be so useful and make mapping out songs so much easier.

I also think Sonar needs some kind of clip library feature like Pro Tools - a means of instant access to all clips in a project. It would be so much easier to be able to drag clips from a clip list into the project instead of scrolling back and forward along the clip window to drag-copy clips from A to B.

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#6
lfm
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/03/06 15:41:33 (permalink)
+1 (1)
sharke
I also think Sonar needs some kind of clip library feature like Pro Tools - a means of instant access to all clips in a project. It would be so much easier to be able to drag clips from a clip list into the project instead of scrolling back and forward along the clip window to drag-copy clips from A to B.



I double that too - all daws I tested always hide away midi stuff.
They often have a manager/pool kind of thing for audio clips - but midi stuff is excluded - why?
Partly possibly because midi never become files on disk - so get them managed too, please.
#7
Kev999
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/03/06 22:05:08 (permalink)
+2 (2)
sharke
...The current way of moving huge chunks of a project around by lassoing and dragging them, or by inserting or deleting time, are fraught with problems, finicky and inconvenient. Being able to define song parts or "scenes" and order them on an arranger track would be so useful and make mapping out songs so much easier...

 
Very true. I have a project that I put aside a while ago in which the verses, bridges, choruses, instrumental passages all sound good separately and the transitions between consecutive sections are ok too. However the whole thing played from start to finish somehow doesn't work. I tried changing the order of some of the sections but this took a lot of effort. Right now I don't have a clear idea of where I am going with this project and I would like to experiment with different alternative arrangements, but it's too much hassle so I've shelved it for now. With a suitable feature that would make re-sequencing easier I would continue.
post edited by Kev999 - 2015/04/28 22:59:04

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#8
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/03/28 04:31:08 (permalink)
+1 (1)
my vote on this ... this sounds really cool because all existing options (clip grouping, matrix, ...) are too tedious and hurt the creative flow because you can just restructure on the fly ...

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Sir William
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/03/28 10:23:31 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Yes please. This sounds like a great idea.
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Anderton
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/03/28 12:05:11 (permalink)
+1 (1)
sharke
I also think Sonar needs some kind of clip library feature like Pro Tools - a means of instant access to all clips in a project. It would be so much easier to be able to drag clips from a clip list into the project instead of scrolling back and forward along the clip window to drag-copy clips from A to B.



SONAR has this for audio clips. Check the Browser drop-down menu and select "Project Audio Folder." 

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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/03/28 17:54:40 (permalink)
+1 (1)
sharke
The current way of moving huge chunks of a project around by lassoing and dragging them, or by inserting or deleting time, are fraught with problems, finicky and inconvenient.

In fact, this method (that I relied upon up to 8.5) is pretty much unusable now that the lasso will extend the selection to cover adjacent clips if I use track templates (see my thread here). I suspect that anybody who primarily uses Sonar as a tracking and mixing environment, rather than an arranging environment, will never discover or care about this problem. But 90% of my time is spent arranging, and it's unfortunate that newer versions of Sonar have made this harder instead of easier.

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Gene921
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/03/29 12:16:48 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Something like this would definitely would be a wonderful feature for composition purposes.  (I just did a YouTube search for "Cubase Arranger Track" to see it in action.)  
 
I'm in the middle of a song right now - specfically, trying to move a chorus to earlier in the form - and finding it really difficult.  (I'm not a Sonar Ninja, though!!!!)
 
Granted, Sonar is a DAW - and perhaps such things should be worked out ahead of time - but it seems like there's an opportunity in this space.  After a quick Google search, most "songwriting" programs appear to be lyric-oriented.  Perhaps there's something else out there where you can move sections around and find that what you thought was a great bridge is actually a better chorus - or a song just flows better with a different form.  
#13
lfm
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/03/29 12:44:35 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Thanks for support guys.
Don't forget to star-vote on first post  the more the merrier.
#14
BrianSzep
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/03/29 17:59:16 (permalink)
+5 (5)
Until we have a real arranger try this little tip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XTysXLBiYqY#t=3742s
 
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#15
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/03/30 03:09:56 (permalink)
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BrianSzep
Until we have a real arranger try this little tip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XTysXLBiYqY#t=3742s
 
Brian




so simple that I wouldn't have thought of it :-)

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#16
theheliosequence
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/04/28 21:06:10 (permalink)
0
Does anyone have a link to good example of this feature in action on Cubase?
 
Thanks!
#17
lfm
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/04/30 03:35:52 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bluzdog 2015/05/20 19:02:47
0
theheliosequence
Does anyone have a link to good example of this feature in action on Cubase?
 
Thanks!




Make your pick:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cubase+arranger+tracks
 
 
Those from steinberg first maybe, then some with a certain usage...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bFPbv4yiiM
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px9cppOQhoo
Thanks for interest.
post edited by lfm - 2015/04/30 03:42:49
#18
Notecrusher
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/04/30 22:10:24 (permalink)
+1 (1)
I gave the OP 5 stars. These are the kind of modern features I'd like to see in Sonar. Focus on workflow, especially non-linear workflow and bringing the DAW into the 21st century.
 
Speaking of which, the matrix needs some love, I'll be posting a feature wishlist for that soon.
#19
lfm
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/05/02 04:04:05 (permalink)
0
Thanks again, all voters.
 
Arranging like this will improve Sonar as song writing tool - from embryo to finished song.
#20
lfm
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/05/20 15:30:12 (permalink)
+3 (3)
So StudioOne v3 now got Arranger tracks too.
#21
VariousArtist
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/05/20 18:06:09 (permalink)
+2 (2)
+1 to an Arranger track.  
 
It would be so much simpler to select a section from the arranger and have everything in it move together, rather than having to group clips or try to deftly select them all.
#22
bluzdog
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/05/20 19:26:28 (permalink)
+1 (1)
I love this request.
Though nowhere near as intuitive for a workaround you can pack everything into a folder, split all of the clips together in the envelope header for different parts and drag things around as though they are one entity. I hope this makes sense, if not check out Eli's Fun with envelopes in the Sonar X1 Tips & Tricks video at Groove 3.
 
Rocky
#23
mudgel
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/05/22 09:13:00 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Studio One 3 has what they call a scratch pad and you can copy or move any section (arranger track) to create a different project, have a place to muck around etc. all the data in the scratch remains live as per the project with all plugins still active. You can stack scratch pads in effect giving you multiple versions of the song that are right there and can be played. Moving between the scratchpad and the project are seem less. It is much deeper than our Mix recal which I love but this Scratch pad and arranger track is awesome.

That alone is enough reason to be spending more time in Studio One.

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#24
lfm
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/05/22 09:38:31 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Personally I like using the thumbnail part more, once ranges are defined.
You just copy and drag those parts in order.
No reason to navigate through the timeline at all and take things to/from scratchpad.
 
I find Cubase implementation better and more flexible, also generating projects as such from stored presets of different arrangements.
 
S1 scratchpad is obsolete, as I see it. You just drag a thumbnail and place it last until you know what you want with it, and playback looping set before that. Not needed, really.
 
What I did not see from S1 launch broadcast was how they treat splitting of clips(or events in S1). Everything looked cool as presented, but there were only strict sections with nothing that complicates things.
 
I have songs where drums have a few hits intro on toms before that bar where kick and there rest comes in. This means time ranges cannot cut strictly on a spot, but have rules how clips are handled on either side - to split, keep from left, keep from right - and such rules.
 
And for Cubase, it's enough running Elements to get arranger tracks.
In S1 you need Pro version - and they ditched Producer and I would have to pay twice what I payed for Producer just to get upgrade to Pro. And Presonus have two levels of entry versions that don't even have VST support as standard - only Pro version does - what is that about?
I ditched S1 long ago anyway for how they treat midi for external instruments - just kept as reference for support with Waves.
 
Would be very exited if Cakewalk suddenly had Arranger on "next" list...
#25
bluzdog
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/05/22 11:16:51 (permalink)
+3 (3)
IMHO.....This trumps all previous requests and feature updates to SPlat.
 
Rocky
#26
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/05/23 04:38:53 (permalink)
+2 (2)
bluzdog
IMHO.....This trumps all previous requests and feature updates to SPlat.



most definitely. this combined with mix recall would make the world a better place :-)
 
we should take turns to bump this thread every 12 hrs ;-)

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#27
stevec
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/05/24 11:30:30 (permalink)
0
OK.. voted.  
 
It's really not the most important thing for me on the feature list, but I imagine I'd probably use it if available...

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#28
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/05/25 18:32:50 (permalink)
0
sharke
The current way of moving huge chunks of a project around by lassoing and dragging them, or by inserting or deleting time, are fraught with problems, finicky and inconvenient. Being able to define song parts or "scenes" and order them on an arranger track would be so useful and make mapping out songs so much easier.



Meanwhile, I use Clip Groups a lot. It's a habit I got into with Sony Vegas as a way to move video+audio events around, so I was glad when it was added to SONAR. 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#29
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase 2015/05/26 02:54:31 (permalink)
+1 (1)
it looks like 2 threads got merged here ... which makes it confusing to follow and I just wondered why I voted for this when I read the first post again .... well, I voted for "Arranger tracks ala Cubase and StudioOne v3", which is now post #5 ...
 
anyway, clip groups are ok, the workaround using a dummy MIDI track for song sections is also nice, but nothing would beat a real arranger tracks that allows you to reshuffle your song structure quickly and also allow to A/B compare different arrangement ...
 
when recording/producing music that other people wrote, it's often not that easy to convince them that it might be better to put the chorus earlier and bring the not-so great bridge only once ... even with a dummy MIDI track for song sections it takes you several minutes to properly set that up but you still cannot compare A/B quickly unless you export 2 projects and play in WMP or another project which takes more precious time ... another 50ct to support this apparently very popular feature request
 
post edited by FreeFlyBertl - 2015/05/26 03:01:26

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#30
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