kingo
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 260
- Joined: 2006/11/15 13:09:55
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/13 23:41:30
(permalink)
John, studios have been doing that for years! It truly is a tough thing to separate fact from fiction. I've been professionally mixing for 25 years, and I still get fooled more often than I care to admit. I guess the hunger for the Holy Grail of sound blinds me at times. Mr. Acid, from what I can tell, really knows his stuff. I was hoping to have a discussion of the subleties of his mastering. Eddie ORIGINAL: John
If this keeps up it wont be long before we see studios saying we have brand such and such cables as a hook to get the unwashed in their doors.
|
droddey
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5147
- Joined: 2007/02/09 03:44:49
- Location: Mountain View, CA
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 00:00:31
(permalink)
I found his viewpoint fascinating but that may come from my naivete. I'd never heard of layering a bunch of compressors before and his views on multiband compressors was, at the very least, interesting and worth listening to IMHO. Folks have long been using two compressors in a chain. There are various discussions of it around on the web. I've never bothered to try it myself, though I'll get around to it some day. I forget the common name for that process. I've not seen the use of more than two before.
|
Tom F
Max Output Level: -48 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2749
- Joined: 2007/07/08 05:56:12
- Location: Vienna (the one in Europe)
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 02:23:27
(permalink)
well so you are deaf and proud of it ? and is it maybe the reason for being almost so keen on saying no difference here and there ? actually i dont know what you are and what you do - and i just argue with you about something for the fun of it - but again if you say that a 2 dollar cable sounds like a 30 dollar cable go and wash your ears out ... snake oil? i love james randi btw..because i think he is pretty smart but you are propagating a sort of low level scepticism here...actually use whatever you want - hopefully you have all the cheapest components available - because following your own argumentation you would be silly if you didnt - i know the difference between an instrument cable and patch cable very well...and all people i know say i have "golden" ears - in fact i get sent mastered tracks from all my colleagues because they want me to check quality (from classical music to electronic) btw i also have a very developed sense of smell - tested - and often i get "accused" of being a bit paranoid - but then people always have to admit that i was right in the end ... so just be so kind to accept that there are people with a better developed sensorium than you ...certainly there are other talents you exceed in - i for instance have a not so higlhy developed social competence ;-)- so no need to feel bad 
|
droddey
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5147
- Joined: 2007/02/09 03:44:49
- Location: Mountain View, CA
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 03:31:13
(permalink)
No one said a $2 cord compared to a $30 cord. You want it to be physically well made so that it doesn't have lose connections or bad solders and whatnot, and it's unlikely that a $2 cord is going to be well made given the manufacturing realities. But once you get up to a basic level of quality, by a repuatable manufacturer who knows the standards and adheres to them, there just ain't going to be a difference.
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 11:53:47
(permalink)
well so you are deaf and proud of it ? and is it maybe the reason for being almost so keen on saying no difference here and there ? Hearing ability doesn't enter into it. If there are differences, they should be measurable.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
Duojet
Max Output Level: -62 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1413
- Joined: 2003/12/06 22:02:31
- Location: NJ, US
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 12:02:49
(permalink)
"good quality" cables should not color the sound at all or as little as possible. what the sterling sound guy says doesnt make much sense
Intel Core2Duo e8400 Abit IP35-E 4GB Ram Windows 7 SP1 64 Bit EMU 1820m DFHS2, BFD2, Battery3, Amplitube2, GuitarRig3, Kontakt4, Ampeg SVX, Line6 PodXT
|
...wicked
Max Output Level: -1.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7360
- Joined: 2003/12/18 01:00:56
- Location: Seattle
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 13:06:24
(permalink)
omg, are you guys still squabbling about cables? Holy crow.
Post some data already, I've read about double-blind tests done before using soundprint comparisons... can't we just go to the instant replay for a verdict and move on to the next play of the game?
=========== The Fog People =========== Intel i7-4790 16GB RAM ASUS Z97 Roland OctaCapture Win10/64 SONAR Platinum 64-bit billions VSTs, some of which work
|
Jose7822
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10031
- Joined: 2005/11/07 18:59:54
- Location: United States
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 13:18:44
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: droddey
I found his viewpoint fascinating but that may come from my naivete. I'd never heard of layering a bunch of compressors before and his views on multiband compressors was, at the very least, interesting and worth listening to IMHO.
Folks have long been using two compressors in a chain. There are various discussions of it around on the web. I've never bothered to try it myself, though I'll get around to it some day. I forget the common name for that process. I've not seen the use of more than two before.
Two-Stage Compression.
|
s_barber
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 390
- Joined: 2006/02/03 17:34:20
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 13:43:58
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: tazman
Actually cables can affect the sound of analog gear. A couple of years ago by chance I used a different guitar cable and all of a sudden I thought someone had changed the settings on my amp. I checked them and they were the same, so I went out and bought 2 or 3 different brands just to check (Mogami, Monster, PLanet Waves and some others). In the end, as much as I don't like the way the company operates, I ended up getting the Monster Rock cables cause for some reason, to my ears, they color the sound of my Les Paul and my Strat with the effect chain and my eamp in a way that I really like. And mind you, the differences were not subtle. So I can see how cabling within the studio environment can make a difference.
ORIGINAL: droddey
I was with him until he started talking about how this cable sounds really different from that cable.
Capacitance is what's coloring the sound. All cables have inherent capcitance in varying degrees. Typically the better materials and quality results in less capacitance. E.g. Gold contacts, etc. That along with inherent resistance in the cable of which both which are affected by length, material, braiding etc. Capacitance and resitance create their own filter much the same as analog filters that have been designed and built into mixers going back almost 100 years. My two cents.
Listem Here. My web site http://www.lamejohnnycreek.com/. Dell Laptop, 1 GB, 160 GB FW, EMU 1616M, M-Audio 88, Sonar 6 PE, Ozone, CD Arc, EZ, Dim, Dahlia Violin, G & L Guitar.
|
Roflcopter
Max Output Level: -7.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6767
- Joined: 2007/04/27 19:10:06
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 14:01:23
(permalink)
I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
|
droddey
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5147
- Joined: 2007/02/09 03:44:49
- Location: Mountain View, CA
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 14:40:58
(permalink)
Capacitance is what's coloring the sound. All cables have inherent capcitance in varying degrees. Typically the better materials and quality results in less capacitance. E.g. Gold contacts, etc. That along with inherent resistance in the cable of which both which are affected by length, material, braiding etc. Capacitance and resitance create their own filter much the same as analog filters that have been designed and built into mixers going back almost 100 years. My two cents.p. Don't BNC connectors and cables have well defined characteristics? Aren't they all supposed to be 75 Ohm? We aren't talking about guitar cables here, but balanced BNC patch cables.
post edited by droddey - 2008/05/14 15:01:47
|
pdarg
Max Output Level: -52.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2265
- Joined: 2004/03/26 17:52:53
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 15:22:35
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Roflcopter
Zum Klotzen! 
YES! Compare a Klotz La Grange cable to a Monster cable. If a person can't hear the difference, then it will not matter (to them at least). But having said that, the difference IS there; even my wife could hear it! Klotz is very good.
|
Tom F
Max Output Level: -48 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2749
- Joined: 2007/07/08 05:56:12
- Location: Vienna (the one in Europe)
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 15:33:34
(permalink)
risking to sound a bit esoteric ( which i am not) : arnt there many many things in the world that cant be measured or that cant be "scientifically" quantified at 100% ? do you really believe that all 75ohm cables sound the same ...not all 100watt lamps make the same light, and not every bigmac tastes like the other (even if they try hard to do so) 
|
s_barber
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 390
- Joined: 2006/02/03 17:34:20
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 15:40:53
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: droddey
Capacitance is what's coloring the sound. All cables have inherent capcitance in varying degrees. Typically the better materials and quality results in less capacitance. E.g. Gold contacts, etc. That along with inherent resistance in the cable of which both which are affected by length, material, braiding etc. Capacitance and resitance create their own filter much the same as analog filters that have been designed and built into mixers going back almost 100 years. My two cents.p.
Don't BNC connectors and cables have well defined characteristics? Aren't they all supposed to be 75 Ohm? We aren't talking about guitar cables here, but balanced BNC patch cables.
75 Ohm is the impedance level of the input and output devices. Not the resistance of the cable itself. Try an Ohmeter on that cable. It should read very, very close to zero, yet not absolute zero. Only a superconductor can do that and that's only in theory. Every wire has inherent resistance which is determined by length, size of wire, braided, unbraided, even the contacts not being gold or whatever will add resistance to the cable. It will be a very small value. That combined with a small capcitance coming from the cable wires running in paralell will create some kind of very subtle filter on the audio. It will be there and you may or may not hear it but it's there.
Listem Here. My web site http://www.lamejohnnycreek.com/. Dell Laptop, 1 GB, 160 GB FW, EMU 1616M, M-Audio 88, Sonar 6 PE, Ozone, CD Arc, EZ, Dim, Dahlia Violin, G & L Guitar.
|
Tom F
Max Output Level: -48 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2749
- Joined: 2007/07/08 05:56:12
- Location: Vienna (the one in Europe)
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 15:46:42
(permalink)
so why all manufacturers call their cables 75ohm or 50 ohm or whatever-ohm cables?? and why does everybody say that you need 75ohm cables for getting best results while transfering data via spdif for example?? did i miss something?
post edited by info@tomflair.com - 2008/05/14 16:06:48
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 16:03:28
(permalink)
Capacitance is what's coloring the sound. All cables have inherent capcitance in varying degrees. Typically the better materials and quality results in less capacitance. E.g. Gold contacts, etc. That along with inherent resistance in the cable of which both which are affected by length, material, braiding etc. Capacitance and resitance create their own filter much the same as analog filters that have been designed and built into mixers going back almost 100 years. My two cents. I'll add another two cents, and we'll that much closer to a nickel. Yes, capacitance and inductance introduce frequency nonlinearity into any circuit. But here's where the cable salesmen drift from reality. The amount of capacitance in a well-constructed instrument cable is small - on the order of picofarads. You probably have a much larger capacitor across the output of your guitar's electronics and an even larger one across the input of your preamp to intentionally attenuate unwanted (beyond audible) frequencies. The cables' capacitance is just too small to have any audible effect. Let's say you've got a really crappy Wal-Mart guitar cord that's waaay too long, say 20ft, and this crappy cable has 30pf capacitance per foot. What's the capacitive reactance of 600pf at 20KHz? Er, I don't have a calculator handy so maybe someone else will do the math, but it's low, very low compared to the input impedance of any amplifier. Now, guitars (and some microphones) can be a special case, because they are inductive sources (assuming no active electronics in the guitar and no stompboxes). That exacerbates the effect of cable capacitance. Consequently, a highly-capacitive guitar cord would have a higher probability of introducing audible effects than, say, a patch cable. You could actually get slight attenuation at very high frequencies and possibly a gain increase in the upper midrange. The effect would be very subtle, would not apply to guitars with battery-powered preamps or stompboxes in the chain, and might not be noticeable at all with higher-end pickups. So all this is to say that yes, capacitance can have a subtle tonal effect, with guitars in particular and extremely long cable runs in general. This does not address the question of whether or not an expensive cable is less prone to this effect. The difference in capacitance between normal shielded cable and "low capacitance" cable is not huge. Even if the expensive stuff is only 20pf/ft, that means a 10ft cable of the cheap stuff has the same capacitance as 15ft of the good stuff. Can you golden-eared folks really distinguish between the tone of a 10' cable and that of a 15' cable? Come on, now, be honest.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 16:29:38
(permalink)
arnt there many many things in the world that cant be measured or that cant be "scientifically" quantified at 100% ? In short, no. Things in the natural world do have a complexity that makes 100% quantification impractical. For example, a meteorologist for the National Weather Service once told me that weather forecasts could be 100% accurate except that by the time all the computations were completed the weather would have already come and gone. It's just impractical to take all the variables into account. However, this does not mean that there are natural phenomena that cannot be scientifically quantified. And let's keep it in context and perspective: we're talking about the finite realm of audio frequencies and the limitations of the human ear. Compared to many other areas of physics, it's not all that complicated. We just don't care about what's happening above 20KHz, for instance. Most of the cable phenomena that cable salesmen harp about are only relevant at frequencies above 1MHz. Not relevant. I can think of one thing that defies scientific explanation, though: human imagination. We can imagine that magic rocks placed atop a speaker will improve the sound, and some will really hear a difference. The difference isn't real, but that doesn't mean people don't hear it! Check out the testimonials for this product for an example.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
Tom F
Max Output Level: -48 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2749
- Joined: 2007/07/08 05:56:12
- Location: Vienna (the one in Europe)
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 17:17:52
(permalink)
great link - i am still laughing my ass off...
|
Roflcopter
Max Output Level: -7.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6767
- Joined: 2007/04/27 19:10:06
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 17:26:26
(permalink)
We just don't care about what's happening above 20KHz, for instance. Most of the cable phenomena that cable salesmen harp about are only relevant at frequencies above 1MHz. Not relevant. *Especially* not if you say in the next breath that you always roll off everything above 17KHz anyway ....
I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
|
deleter47
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 379
- Joined: 2005/11/25 20:24:59
- Location: Rio Grande Valley
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 19:39:43
(permalink)
" For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 23:15:30
(permalink)
Good idea! I've got bags full of them. Maybe I should try to hawk them on ebay. I've got special coated cables with genuine 1960's-era beer still on them.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
guitartrek
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2842
- Joined: 2006/02/26 12:37:57
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/14 23:25:32
(permalink)
Oh crap - I threw away all my old cables already! 
|
jamjar
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
- Total Posts : 155
- Joined: 2006/07/12 00:51:22
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/15 01:05:57
(permalink)
I bought expensive new cables for my hifi and I was astounded at how much better my hifi sounded as a result.
I told a work colleague of mine and he argued that this was not possible. So, we sat down and did a bit of a research, conducted some tests together and even did a little bit of maths to establish who was right and who was wrong.
Turns out he was right and I was wrong. That night, I went back home and connected up my old cables again and was disappointed that I could no longer hear the difference. In summary, I conned myself.
Oh, by the way, I'm an electronics engineer with 25 years of experience and a PhD to my name. Our tests involved frequency generators, spectrometers, oscilloscopes and extremely accurate (and expensive) multimeters.
Trust me, there is no difference between a $50 cable and a $500 cable. However, what is really cool is that we can convince ourselves that there is - at they end of the day, that's all the matters. In YOUR mind, you've upgraded your system and you're happier as a result!
Stuart.
|
AndyW
Max Output Level: -45.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2956
- Joined: 2005/10/06 17:13:00
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/15 01:39:25
(permalink)
|
eikelbijter
Max Output Level: -70 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1002
- Joined: 2003/11/13 22:23:52
- Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/15 01:48:09
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: ...wicked
The fact he poo-poos multi-band compressors is interesting, since he's basically made a giant multi-band compressor out of his EQ and stacked units.
Exactly! It's ridiculous to say you have to dump all your mastering plugins because some people don't know how to use them! Rico
Xeon E3-1231V3, 16GB RAM, 480GB 840EVO SSD, MOTU 2480MK3, 424PCI w/ Sonar PlatinumDell XPS 18, i5, 12GB RAM, 500GB SSD+128GB SSD, Roland VS-100 w/ Sonar Platinum
Dell XPS 13, i5, 8GB RAM, 256GB 840EVO SSD, Zoom UAC-2, Sonar Platinum
http://www.RicoBelled.com/
|
deleter47
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 379
- Joined: 2005/11/25 20:24:59
- Location: Rio Grande Valley
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/15 07:59:07
(permalink)
Seems to me it would be a lot harder to mix, and master a wild, and crazy garage band than a bunch of synths, and Acid clips. Loops, and clips are pretty sanitized already.....synth levels are pretty tame....add to that the great extra headroom we now have mixing in 24 bit....do you really need a lot of compression in Electronica Club stuff? On the other hand try mixing a wacked out long haired drummer whos had way too much Mountain Dew......or some guy who thinks he's the next Axel Rose.....even so I would love to have just half of the stuff that guy has. That one comp. with the separate wet/dry knobs is just doing the same thing as New York compression....one channel heavily compressed, one channel clean...mixed to taste......but I've always thought of that method being used on single tracks, and not for mastering the final two-track. Has anybody here tried this??
" For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
|
guitartrek
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2842
- Joined: 2006/02/26 12:37:57
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/15 08:31:10
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: deleter47
Seems to me it would be a lot harder to mix, and master a wild, and crazy garage band than a bunch of synths, and Acid clips. Loops, and clips are pretty sanitized already.....synth levels are pretty tame....add to that the great extra headroom we now have mixing in 24 bit....do you really need a lot of compression in Electronica Club stuff? On the other hand try mixing a wacked out long haired drummer whos had way too much Mountain Dew......or some guy who thinks he's the next Axel Rose.....
Good point. From what we've seen it would seem he is only dealing with one genre. A genre that doesn't involve the dynamics of live instruments, vocals, and such. And he is mastering to serve basically one listening environment...And not all the possible environments that a typical mastering engineer would be considering.
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/15 09:53:36
(permalink)
That's the funniset video I've watched in a while.
It's like he read the instruction manuals or something... At least I got to brush up on my German.
My favorite quote:
"Everybody uses the same presets..."
It must be nice to be the prince of a small country :-)
I gotta go drink some Taurine.
|
s_barber
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 390
- Joined: 2006/02/03 17:34:20
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/15 10:08:50
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Geokauf
Hello,
The first commercial studio where I recorded in the mid-70's had that AKG "spring" reverb.
GK
I have one of those in my shed from my first studio. Wanna buy it? I'll give you a deal.
Listem Here. My web site http://www.lamejohnnycreek.com/. Dell Laptop, 1 GB, 160 GB FW, EMU 1616M, M-Audio 88, Sonar 6 PE, Ozone, CD Arc, EZ, Dim, Dahlia Violin, G & L Guitar.
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
RE: Robert Babicz on mastering
2008/05/15 10:24:09
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
That's the funniset video I've watched in a while.
It's like he read the instruction manuals or something... At least I got to brush up on my German.
My favorite quote:
"Everybody uses the same presets..."
It must be nice to be the prince of a small country :-)
I gotta go drink some Taurine.
I don't trust anything they have to say. I think it was full of purposeful misinformation. BTW as a lark I threw the mastered and unmastered tracks in my Sonar mastering template. In a few seconds I was able to match the mastered track to a fair degree. I didn't do much either. If I stayed with it it is likely I could have matched it perfectly. They were both MP3s so I am not going to spend much time on them.
|