Helpful ReplySOLVED! - Dim Pro No Longer Responds to Live Sustain Events...? (All Notes Off Problem)

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brundlefly
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2010/09/02 03:32:10 (permalink)

SOLVED! - Dim Pro No Longer Responds to Live Sustain Events...? (All Notes Off Problem)

EDIT: See post #13 for the solution.
 
I was playing around with a project that had 16 instances of Dim Pro v1.5 x64 VSTi loaded, all playing the same piano Patch, and I was seeing how many notes I could play simultaneously a la the load test described by the OP in the "Problem with the SONAR CPU meter please....?" thread - holding the sustain pedal, and playing all notes up the keyboard until the CPU overloads.
 
I got about half way up the keyboard when the crackles started getting pretty intense, and my CPU meters were pretty much pegged. A moment later, the audio engine dropped out. After toggling it back on, I got all my Dim Pro instances back, but when I tried to repeat the test, I found that none of them were responding to the sustain pedal. All notes would stop at Note Off, as if the sustain pedal was not sending anything.
 
To make a long story short, I verified that my sustain pedal is still working with hardware synths, and other soft synths. I restarted the project - No joy. I restarted SONAR. Still no joy with Dim Pro, even with a new instance in a new project, and trying different piano and E.P. patches. I tried the x64 DXi, and the Bitbridged x86 VSTi - same problem. I even cold-booted my DAW somewhere in there, but still no response to sustain in Dim Pro.
 
Then I recorded some sustained MIDI notes, and found that on playback, Dim Pro would respond to them. When playing live with MIDI echoed to Dim Pro, I can see the sustain events being echoed in the MIDI track meter, and, as I said, any other synth will respond to them, but not Dim Pro.
 
What the heck have I done to this thing? I think this is the strangest problem I've ever encountered in SONAR.
 
Gonna have to pack it in for the night, and check for suggestions in the morning.
post edited by brundlefly - 2010/09/11 12:22:46
#1
brundlefly
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Re:Dim Pro No Longer Responds to Live Sustain Events...? 2010/09/02 10:26:12 (permalink)
No bright ideas out there, I guess...?
 
Here are a couple more pieces to the puzzle:
 
I found this morning that if I continue to hold at least one key down, other Dim Pro notes will sustain, but as soon as the last Note Off is sent, all notes turn off.
 
Also, I tried some more soft synths, and discovered that Rapture also does this, but not older Cakewalk synths like Pentagon 1, TTS-1 or SFZ player. Is this maybe an "Expression Engine" thing?
 
 
 
 
#2
bvideo
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Re:Dim Pro No Longer Responds to Live Sustain Events...? 2010/09/02 14:46:44 (permalink)
One bright idea: I tried a keyboard (Roland D-50) that sends "all notes off" when the last key is raised. I get your same symptom. I think maybe Dim Pro takes all notes off literally even with the sustain pedal down.
 My other keyboard does not send all notes off and does not get that behavior.
 Bill B
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brundlefly
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Re:Dim Pro No Longer Responds to Live Sustain Events...? 2010/09/02 15:20:35 (permalink)
One bright idea: I tried a keyboard (Roland D-50) that sends "all notes off" when the last key is raised. I get your same symptom.

 
Thanks, Billy. That is a bright idea. This is happening with my Roland RD-300s, and a quick check with MIDI-OX shows it is transmitting All Notes Off. I never bothered to check, because so many other synths were behaving normally.
 
I checked the RD-300s manual, and am not seeing away to turn this off. If it's always done that, the question becomes: Why are Dim Pro and Rapture suddenly paying attention to it?
 
In the mean time, I'll keep looking for a way to turn it off or block it. Maybe something about playing all those notes with the sustain down turned it on...?
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ba_midi
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Re:Dim Pro No Longer Responds to Live Sustain Events...? 2010/09/02 15:31:44 (permalink)
I checked the RD-300s manual, and am not seeing away to turn this off. If it's always done that, the question becomes: Why are Dim Pro and Rapture suddenly paying attention to it?

 
Maybe Sonar 9 is actually going to send Note Offs? ;)
 
 

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Sijel
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Re:Dim Pro No Longer Responds to Live Sustain Events...? 2010/09/02 15:42:59 (permalink)
seeing how many notes I could play simultaneously a la the load test described by the OP in the "Problem with the SONAR CPU meter please....?" thread

 
Sounds like you can not replicate the CPU issue he was seeing.  I can't either.

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brundlefly
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Re:Dim Pro No Longer Responds to Live Sustain Events...? 2010/09/02 16:17:29 (permalink)
ba_midi



I checked the RD-300s manual, and am not seeing away to turn this off. If it's always done that, the question becomes: Why are Dim Pro and Rapture suddenly paying attention to it?
 
Maybe Sonar 9 is actually going to send Note Offs? ;)
As far as I can figure out. The MIDI standard says a synth should ignore All Notes Off if Sustain is on. Apparently there have been other synths that have this issue, much to the chagrin of other Roland keyboard owners. What mysitifies me is that I never encountered it before. Right before this all happened, I was sustaining a bunch of notes with nothing held but the sustain pedal.
 
Something seems to have changed somewhere.
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ba_midi
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Re:Dim Pro No Longer Responds to Live Sustain Events...? 2010/09/02 16:41:04 (permalink)
brundlefly


ba_midi



I checked the RD-300s manual, and am not seeing away to turn this off. If it's always done that, the question becomes: Why are Dim Pro and Rapture suddenly paying attention to it?
 
Maybe Sonar 9 is actually going to send Note Offs? ;)
As far as I can figure out. The MIDI standard says a synth should ignore All Notes Off if Sustain is on. Apparently there have been other synths that have this issue, much to the chagrin of other Roland keyboard owners. What mysitifies me is that I never encountered it before. Right before this all happened, I was sustaining a bunch of notes with nothing held but the sustain pedal.
 
Something seems to have changed somewhere.
I'm guessing you did the latest Dim Pro update?   Something may have changed, indeed.
 

Billy Arnell (ba-midi)

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Thanks for listening - Let's Dance to the rhythm of life! :)
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brundlefly
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Re:Dim Pro No Longer Responds to Live Sustain Events...? 2010/09/02 16:53:50 (permalink)
ba_midi


brundlefly


ba_midi



I checked the RD-300s manual, and am not seeing away to turn this off. If it's always done that, the question becomes: Why are Dim Pro and Rapture suddenly paying attention to it?
 
Maybe Sonar 9 is actually going to send Note Offs? ;)
As far as I can figure out. The MIDI standard says a synth should ignore All Notes Off if Sustain is on. Apparently there have been other synths that have this issue, much to the chagrin of other Roland keyboard owners. What mysitifies me is that I never encountered it before. Right before this all happened, I was sustaining a bunch of notes with nothing held but the sustain pedal.
 
Something seems to have changed somewhere.
I'm guessing you did the latest Dim Pro update?   Something may have changed, indeed. 
Yes, but whatever it is has affected the old v1.2 x64 DXi, and x86 VSTi and Rapture as well. 
 


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ba_midi
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Re:Dim Pro No Longer Responds to Live Sustain Events...? 2010/09/02 21:48:44 (permalink)
Yes, but whatever it is has affected the old v1.2 x64 DXi, and x86 VSTi and Rapture as well.

 
So the question then seems -- what ELSE has changed in your setup/system?
 
 

Billy Arnell (ba-midi)

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digimidi
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Re:Dim Pro No Longer Responds to Live Sustain Events...? 2010/09/03 00:25:47 (permalink)
I hope that this thread doesn't soon because I've had troubles in the past with the sustain pedal using Roland keyboards, i.e. Roland D-50 and JX-8P.  If I use TTS-1, no problems, but some of the other soft synths, even EWQL Symphony Orchestra Silver or Fab Four, will not respond.  I usually record the material live using TTS-1 and then change the VST plugin's output to what I originally wanted to use in the first place.  It's sort of a work around, but it tends to not inspire the creativity that I envisioned using the desired soft synth.  Anyone got any ideas for me and BrundleFly?

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brundlefly
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Re:Dim Pro No Longer Responds to Live Sustain Events...? 2010/09/03 03:38:08 (permalink)

Anyone got any ideas for me and BrundleFly?
 
I'm coming to the conclusion that this has always been an issue, and I just haven't encountered it, because I stopped using my RD-300s as my main controller before I really started using soft synths. I started using it again just a couple months ago, and have not used Dim Pro or Rapture on anything this Summer. I'm not sure why I didn't encounter it immediately yesterday. All I can think is that one of the sticky keys on this 22-year-old keyboard was down, causing sustain to work normally for other notes on my first pass.
 
It's still not clear to me whether the synths that have trouble with this are at fault, or whether the MIDI Spec does not clearly indicate what the priority should for a synth receiving All Notes Off while Sustain is active. It seems the majority give priority to the Sustain.
 
I will probably just go back to using my QS8 as my primary controller, but I imagine there is a MIDI FX plugin out there that can fix this. I found an old one that was aimed precisely at this problem in the SONAR 4/5 era at http://tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx called SustainFix, but I cannot get it to show up in SONAR 8.5 despite apparently successfully registration with regsvr32. Maybe it's an x64 compatibility issue; I don't know.
 
If I find a really transparent fix, I'll let you know. Some combination of MIDI-OX and MIDI Yoke may be able to do it, but I don't want to have to set up anything that complex for a problem I can solve just by using my other controller. Also, some synths have a built-in capabiity to globally remap incoming control messages, allowing CC123 to be mapped to do nothing. I don't know the nuts and bolts of Dim Pro or Rapture that well, but I don't think they can do it. EWQL might be one that can, however. Here's an old post about this with regard to VSampler: http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=1468
 
EDIT: Here's a thread confirming that the TenCrazy MFX are not x64 compatible: http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2064189
post edited by brundlefly - 2010/09/03 03:43:50
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Re: SOLVED! - Dim Pro No Longer Responds to Live Sustain Events...? 2010/09/11 12:10:11 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby DanBailiff 2017/07/16 00:14:05
Turns out Cakewalk's own MIDI Event Filter MFX can take care of this (i.e. block the All Notes Off, CC 123); it's just a little tricky because the interface is buggy.
 
Here's how to make it work consistently (go straight to step 7 after step 2 if you're goood with a mouse, and don't want to understand the bug, and how to work around it):
 
1. Insert the MIDI Event Filter in the MIDI FX bin for the track echoing MIDI to the synth (if you're starting with an Instrument Track, you'll have to split it to get access to the MIDI FX bin).
 
2. In the Event Filter  dialogue, check the box next to Controllers in the upper righthand corner to enable that filter.
 
3. Drag the righthand range pointer at the top of the histogram down below the midpoint.
 
4. Drag the lefthand range pointer at the bottom of the histogram up above the midpoint.
 
5. You should now have a dark "exclusion" zone in the center of the histogram; these are controllers that will not be passed. Note that the value at the top of the histogram is now smaller than the one at the bottom.
 
6. This is where the bug comes into play: You would think that to adjust the range to exclude CC 123 you could edit the top value to 122, and edit the bottom value to 124, keeping the exclusion zone by having the top number smaller than the bottom number. But if you do this, the values and exclusion zone will display as expected, but it won't work; it will pass only CC123, instead of passing everything but CC 123. The trick is to edit the top number to 124, and the bottom number to 122. This will give the correct behavior (CC 123 is blocked, and sustain works normally with Dim Pro et al), and you will find that after closing and re-opening the Event Filter dialog that the numbers display correctly with 122 at the top, and 124 at the bottom.
 
7. The other way that works reliably (and intuitively) is to edit the values using only the sliders, and drag the left hand range pointer on up until the bottom box reads 124, and the righthand pointer down until the top box reads 122. But this can be fiddly, because of the very fine mouse control needed to hit the marks.
 
8. And, last but not least, once you have this working, type something like "Block CC 123" into the Preset window, and click the save button so you can easily recall this setting. It might also be worthwhile to save a MIDI track template with this MFX already inserted.
 
9. Stop fiddling with SONAR, and make some music.
 
post edited by brundlefly - 2010/09/11 12:13:09
#13
ba_midi
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Re: SOLVED! - Dim Pro No Longer Responds to Live Sustain Events...? 2010/09/11 13:39:47 (permalink)
9. Stop fiddling with SONAR, and make some music.

 
_Sometimes_ that's not an easy trick ;)
 

Billy Arnell (ba-midi)

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DanBailiff
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Re: SOLVED! - Dim Pro No Longer Responds to Live Sustain Events...? 2017/07/16 00:15:17 (permalink)
It took me hours to find this, but by golly this fix works! Thank you so very much.
 
It's too bad we cannot apply a MIDI filter globally somehow.
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