mmarton
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 14:49:57
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Is there a tutorial for side-chaining with Prochannel? If that would work, I'd be in heaven...
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ba_midi
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 15:06:54
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mmarton
Is there a tutorial for side-chaining with Prochannel? If that would work, I'd be in heaven...
Here's a quick tutorial .... Have a compressor on the Master Bus (this is one way). Take a kick track (as example) and create a SEND to the compressor on the Master Bus. You are probably better setting the Send to PRE rather than POST so that the signal going to the compressor is not affected by adjustments to the fader level of the kick track itself. That sets up the side-chain routing. Now adjust your MB compressor to taste. It's that simple. There are variations of course, but this is the most straightforward approach. One can also create a 'trigger' track (let's say a kick drum that plays through the entire length of the project) and set its "outpout" to "NONE" so that it is not mixed in to the actual audio. Then use this track as the SEND signal to the side chain input of the compressor as above. This would keep the pumping effect consistent even if the 'actual' kick was not playing. There are other variations as well.
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djjhart@aol.com
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 15:13:56
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If I'm not mistaken, only one of the PC compressors does side-chaining, not both. Are you sure you're using the right one for that? Yep only one PC compressor offers sidechaining, and thats the black one, I'm aware of that. My point was using the PC compressor vs the sonitus and the presonus's compressor, They all have a different pumping effect with the setting's all around the same. quick attack longer release, and yet the presonus has more of a pumping effect more so than what I can get either with the sonitus , or less with the PC.
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Kroneborge
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 15:21:31
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Some compressors though strive to be more transparent (ie less pumping) and others strive for more colororation.
It sounds like that's the issue we are having here. It just sounds like you need a more colorful compressor in this case.
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ba_midi
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 15:21:52
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djjhart@aol.com
If I'm not mistaken, only one of the PC compressors does side-chaining, not both. Are you sure you're using the right one for that?
Yep only one PC compressor offers sidechaining, and thats the black one, I'm aware of that.
My point was using the PC compressor vs the sonitus and the presonus's compressor, They all have a different pumping effect with the setting's all around the same. quick attack longer release, and yet the presonus has more of a pumping effect more so than what I can get either with the sonitus , or less with the PC.
Well, John, then use the one that gives the pump you like ;)
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mmarton
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 15:25:11
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Much appreciated
ba_midi
mmarton
Is there a tutorial for side-chaining with Prochannel? If that would work, I'd be in heaven...
Here's a quick tutorial ....
Have a compressor on the Master Bus (this is one way).
Take a kick track (as example) and create a SEND to the compressor on the Master Bus. You are probably better setting the Send to PRE rather than POST so that the signal going to the compressor is not affected by adjustments to the fader level of the kick track itself.
That sets up the side-chain routing.
Now adjust your MB compressor to taste.
It's that simple. There are variations of course, but this is the most straightforward approach.
One can also create a 'trigger' track (let's say a kick drum that plays through the entire length of the project) and set its "outpout" to "NONE" so that it is not mixed in to the actual audio. Then use this track as the SEND signal to the side chain input of the compressor as above.
This would keep the pumping effect consistent even if the 'actual' kick was not playing.
There are other variations as well.
post edited by mmarton - 2011/03/02 15:26:30
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djjhart@aol.com
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 15:31:03
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Well, John, then use the one that gives the pump you like ;)
I like the presonus sound but it's not in Sonar :( This is extreme pumping I know., I tried to do this with the PC but I can't come close maybe I'm missing something.. It why I posted this video, Like you said Billy different compressors. Know Of any? or perhaps a tip I might be doing wrong in sonar.. ThankS John
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBu9S-7x3QU
post edited by djjhart@aol.com - 2011/03/02 15:40:48
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ba_midi
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 18:37:59
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djjhart@aol.com
Well, John, then use the one that gives the pump you like ;)
I like the presonus sound but it's not in Sonar :(
This is extreme pumping I know., I tried to do this with the PC but I can't come close maybe I'm missing something.. It why I posted this video, Like you said Billy different compressors. Know Of any? or perhaps a tip I might be doing wrong in sonar.. ThankS John
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBu9S-7x3QU
Well even the Sonitus could get that effect John. If you have the Threshold low enough and then use the attack and release more like 'gates', you could easily get that. Even milliseconds on the attack or release can make a big difference when you're side-chaining. So use a BPM calculator and play with the attack and release. Normally you'd want the attack to be closer to the quarter note value and the release to be quick to attain what you have in the example above. But, any good side-chainable compressor should be able to do that.
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HumbleNoise
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 18:44:15
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I think Billy's right about getting the same effect with Sonitus. The challenge is you're dealing with two different animals and you'll need to learn the subtleties of the Sonitus Comp. The same settings there may not behave the same as the same settings on a different Comp. simply because their characters are diferent.
Wish I knew a little more, but when I've played with side chaining and the Sonitus I could get ridiculous, over the top pumping. I don't know what setting, but I'll bet they're in there somewhere.
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Paul Russell
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 19:41:43
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk
]
It's quite clear that it's not the third party compressors at fault, but Cakewalk's implementation of the VST 2.4 sidechaining standard.
Ahem thats a bit of a stretch Paul, especially considering that there is no VST 2.4 standard for sidechaining that you talk of. Its also completely incorrect that sidechaining only works with the Sonitus compressor in X1. There is a fair list of plugins that work perfectly with sidechaining in SONAR.
Hi Noel Thanks for pointing out my mistake. I have issued a retraction at the top of the thread and revised the 'how to' video showing all the compressors in the video successfully sidechaining. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g60LK6u35c
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HumbleNoise
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 19:58:18
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Nice Paul, and thanks to all for the informative thread.
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Paul Russell
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 20:24:35
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joetabby
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 20:57:37
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Ah, good stuff. Thanks Paul & Noel.
-JT
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mmarton
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 21:31:08
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Paul Russell
mmarton
Is there a tutorial for side-chaining with Prochannel? If that would work, I'd be in heaven...
yes, there is now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVaZvdVt1_o
Wow that's great, thanks. I'm still a dummy though. I see how to set it up, that's all fine, and easier than I thought it would be. I'm just not sure what I'm supposed to be hearing. The kick gets sent to and activates the compressor so does that duck the sound of the synth and let the kick stand out more? Just curious, pardon my ignorance.
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ba_midi
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 21:34:55
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showing all the compressors in the video successfully sidechaining. Not in 8.5.3, though :(
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Paul Russell
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 21:46:16
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mmarton
The kick gets sent to and activates the compressor so does that duck the sound of the synth and let the kick stand out more? Yep, that's it. The synth ducks in volume relative to the volume of the keying track and the amount of compression that you've set on the compressor.
Not in 8.5.3, though :(
Great reason to upgrade, then :-)
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ba_midi
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 21:59:57
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Paul Russell
mmarton
The kick gets sent to and activates the compressor so does that duck the sound of the synth and let the kick stand out more?
Yep, that's it. The synth ducks in volume relative to the volume of the keying track and the amount of compression that you've set on the compressor.
Not in 8.5.3, though :(
Great reason to upgrade, then :-)
I did :P But I'm not going to use it anymore (and haven't been) until X1B. Details aren't necessary as it would be redundant around here ;)
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Jonbouy
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/03 07:33:37
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Details aren't necessary as it would be redundant around here ;)
Have you had some problems then Billy?  Thanks for the clarification on this too Noel.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2011/03/03 07:34:52
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fwrend
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/03 08:13:08
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KUDOS to Paul, Billy, and Cake. Great straightforward nuts-n-bolts info absent the berating & belittling of learners that leave us all bewildered. Very refreshing! 
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ba_midi
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/03 12:32:14
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Jonbouy
Details aren't necessary as it would be redundant around here ;)
Have you had some problems then Billy?
Thanks for the clarification on this too Noel.
Jon, Yes - I have problems with X1. Nothing that I don't think X1B probably will solve, but for now I basically don't use X1. I feel I've covered my particular issues enough on this forum over the last few months and therefor didn't want to reiterate yet again. Besides - we know how things get around here lately ;) Of course, I think you're just pullin' my (fx) chain a bit too :P
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Rothchild
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/03 12:55:43
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Whilst going to 32bit isn't the end of the world the 64bit mixbuss is a bullet point feature of Sonar, disabliing it disables a 'major' feature.
Allegedly:
"There is a bug in Sonar's 64-bit mix engine that crashes The Glue when using the external sidechain input. If you switch to the 32-bit mix engine everything works fine. It is Sonar's responsibility to pass The Glue the correct 32-bit numbers like it does when it is running the 32-bit engine even though it is running a 64-bit mix engine otherwise. It is most likely they are forgetting to convert the external sidechain input which causes the buzzing you hear."
The Glue has been patched so it now works with 64bit mixbuss enabled, Sonar 8.5.3 hasn't (despite the fact that my cwbrn got 'submitted to development') :-( At least none of the plugs that don't like the 64bit numbers folded your system up Paul (which was what happened to me when I initially started using it) but it seems like there may still be a few stray gremlins. Child
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Paul Russell
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/03 20:03:58
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In other news, the latency errors caused by sidechaining a bridged compressor in Sonar 8.5.3 has gone away in Sonar X1.
That's great. Thanks for that, Noel.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/07 15:23:56
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Some updates.. Allegedly: "There is a bug in Sonar's 64-bit mix engine that crashes The Glue when using the external sidechain input. Its not alleged its for real :) Thanks for the clear error report - the problem was indeed that we were sending double precision data to the plugin on the sidechain input. I was able to reproduce it and fixed it for X1B. Somehow this bug report slipped through our Radar earlier, since it might have been mistakenly assumed to be specific to this one plugin. We verified that this addresses the problem with Fabfilter in double precision mode. This should address all the remaining sidechaining issues that Paul was running into without any workarounds in X1B. Thanks to both of you for bringing these issues to our attention. BTW, I've been public beta testing NI's Maschine 1.6 update and reported a problem as did a number of other Sonar users with both 8.5.3 and X1. The new update (Maschine) wouldn't work. It turns out the workaround is to limit the # of inputs to the plugin to '2' max in Pluginmanager. Yes, NI contacted us and I supplied them with that workaround for 8.5 and X1. Maschine 1.6 exposes 8 inputs. SONAR was not expecting multichannel inputs on Synths and this would cause the problem. This workaround is not required for X1B since the problem has been solved in X1B.
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djjhart@aol.com
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/07 15:48:58
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Yes, NI contacted us and I supplied them with that workaround for 8.5 and X1. Maschine 1.6 exposes 8 inputs. SONAR was not expecting multichannel inputs on Synths and this would cause the problem. This workaround is not required for X1B since the problem has been solved in X1B. Awesome news...
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ba_midi
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/07 17:07:15
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk
]
Some updates..
Allegedly: "There is a bug in Sonar's 64-bit mix engine that crashes The Glue when using the external sidechain input.
Its not alleged its for real :) Thanks for the clear error report - the problem was indeed that we were sending double precision data to the plugin on the sidechain input. I was able to reproduce it and fixed it for X1B. Somehow this bug report slipped through our Radar earlier, since it might have been mistakenly assumed to be specific to this one plugin. We verified that this addresses the problem with Fabfilter in double precision mode.
This should address all the remaining sidechaining issues that Paul was running into without any workarounds in X1B. Thanks to both of you for bringing these issues to our attention.
BTW, I've been public beta testing NI's Maschine 1.6 update and reported a problem as did a number of other Sonar users with both 8.5.3 and X1. The new update (Maschine) wouldn't work. It turns out the workaround is to limit the # of inputs to the plugin to '2' max in Pluginmanager.
Yes, NI contacted us and I supplied them with that workaround for 8.5 and X1. Maschine 1.6 exposes 8 inputs. SONAR was not expecting multichannel inputs on Synths and this would cause the problem. This workaround is not required for X1B since the problem has been solved in X1B.
Heh, nice how you quoted 2 different people there ;) Well, this is excellent news. I'd even call it delicious news :) Question, if you will: does X1(a/b) use the same VST inventory data from the registry as 8.5.3 ? I ask because even if X1B becomes my go-to host, I may still have to use 8.5.3 for various older projects (to keep life simple) and the NI fix in particular would then require separate plugin settings.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/07 17:59:07
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Yes the inventory is shared for all versions of the same product. So if you wanted to use that plugin in 8.5 you would need to set the number of inputs to 2. There is no harm in making that change however even for X1B so there should be no conflict.
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ba_midi
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/07 18:07:57
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk
]
Yes the inventory is shared for all versions of the same product. So if you wanted to use that plugin in 8.5 you would need to set the number of inputs to 2. There is no harm in making that change however even for X1B so there should be no conflict.
Thanks. Is there any drawback to setting inputs to 2? I mean, does that somehow reduce the flexibility of Maschine in Sonar by doing so?
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Dave Modisette
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/07 19:28:54
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I double checked the Eareckon SD COMP 87 compressor and in X1, if the compressor is in an FX bin on a mono interleave track, the sidechain will not work. As soon as you set the interleave to stereo, you get sidechain.
It's funny but the Eareckon SD GATE 87 works on a mono interleave track.
I seem to remember that it had something to do with what channel the sidechain is coming in to the compressor.
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cyberzip
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/08 08:23:58
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The problems when sidechaining Softube plugins in Sonar, is that the "extremely low volume output" problem? Will that be fixed in X1b?
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/08 15:37:23
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I double checked the Eareckon SD COMP 87 compressor and in X1, if the compressor is in an FX bin on a mono interleave track, the sidechain will not work. Yeah most likely this is because the plugin is expecting the sidechain to be "packed" side by side next to the mono input, as opposed to being the first channel in the next stereo input pair. By default SONAR assumes that additional sidechain inputs are offset by a factor of 2 since most sidechainable stereo plugins listen for the sc input this way. The only exception to this we knew of was our VC64. I guess this plugin is another exception :) SONAR actually handles this case but there is no way currently to tell SONAR that the plugin wants this.
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