Paul Russell
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3892
- Joined: 2003/11/06 23:52:18
- Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
- Status: offline
Sidechaining in X1
The original premise of this post was basically incorrect, so here's a retraction. Sidechaining works in Sonar X1a, but with some third party compressors you have to switch off the 64 bit engine. Most third party compressors have a sidechain switch, and the trick is to find it. In this video I demonstrate how to get Sidechain working with Sonitus Compressor, Softube FET and Valley People Dynamite, VC-64 and PSP Mixpressor 2 (x64 native) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g60LK6u35c Thanks to Noel Borthwick for pointing out my mistakes. 
A word of warning about Sidechaining in X1a x64. It does not function unless you use a Sonitus Compressor. Not even V-Channel supports it. Here's a video that tests Sonitus, V-Channel, PSP Mixpressor (native x64) and two Softube compressors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApOh6rWnpdo
It's quite clear that it's not the third party compressors at fault, but Cakewalk's implementation of the VST 2.4 sidechaining standard. Is this on the X1b fix list? I don't think so.
post edited by Paul Russell - 2011/03/02 19:33:56
|
ba_midi
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14061
- Joined: 2003/11/05 16:58:18
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 01:13:39
(permalink)
Ugh, that is just sad. I hope this is something that's on the fix list!
I know that when I tried S/C with the 64bit DP engine on, 3rd party stuff didn't work.
Have you tried without 64bit dp on?
And nice to see you around Paul, I hope all is well.
|
ba_midi
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14061
- Joined: 2003/11/05 16:58:18
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 01:17:44
(permalink)
BTW, I've been public beta testing NI's Maschine 1.6 update and reported a problem as did a number of other Sonar users with both 8.5.3 and X1. The new update (Maschine) wouldn't work.
It turns out the workaround is to limit the # of inputs to the plugin to '2' max in Pluginmanager.
I wonder if that's related to all this limited Side Chaining as well -- because Side Chains need more inputs.
|
ba_midi
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14061
- Joined: 2003/11/05 16:58:18
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 01:21:36
(permalink)
I'm going to do some tests now in both 8.5.3 and X1 with FabFilter Pro-C - which comes with a special S/C version.
I'm in 32bit though =- so we'll see how that goes.
|
ba_midi
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14061
- Joined: 2003/11/05 16:58:18
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 01:30:12
(permalink)
Well, you're right. Sonar 8.5.3 and X1 do not let me side-chain with 3rd party plugins - even ones made to do so - just as your video shows. That's is sad. I had been using the Sonitus since it works fine for that, but it sure does limit the options. Considering the REST of the world does side-chaining with almost everything, this is not good news.
post edited by ba_midi - 2011/03/02 01:31:55
|
Paul Russell
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3892
- Joined: 2003/11/06 23:52:18
- Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 01:35:25
(permalink)
hi Billy by switching off the 64 bit calculation engine I was able to get the two Softube compressors to Sidechain properly, but not the PSP or V-Channel. IIRC, sidechaining is implemented better in 32 bit, but YMMV
post edited by Paul Russell - 2011/03/02 10:46:14
|
ba_midi
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14061
- Joined: 2003/11/05 16:58:18
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 01:43:25
(permalink)
Paul Russell
hi Billy
by switching off the 64 bit calculation engine I was able to the two Softube compressors to Sidechain properly, but not the PSP or V-Channel.
IIRC, sidechaining is implemented better in 32 bit, but YMMV
However, at the end of the day - this is truly a limitation that I don't think any other DAW has at this point in time. I use Live, Studio One, and have futzed with Reaper. Cubase I know has it as well (I'm seriously considering take another look at Cubase actually). I'm not familiar with the Softube plugins - are they VST? The Sonitus Compressor is DX in 8.5.3. I actually bought the Sonitus VST package and it doesn't do sidechaining at all in any host (so that was a waste of money). THis is why marketing terms like "DAW 2.0" can be irrelevant after awhile. I don't mean to be crude, but side-chaining is a long used, often used technique as you know. There just is no logic to it not being fully implemented at this point in time.
|
Paul Russell
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3892
- Joined: 2003/11/06 23:52:18
- Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 01:48:31
(permalink)
The Softubes are VST 2.4, but they're beta testing VST3 versions at the moment, with X64 native support on the immediate horizon too. We've had sidechaining in Sonar for some time, but IMHO it's never been fully implemented. Like you, I'm also looking at Cubase, but after being on Sonar since version One it's going to be a big learning curve to change.
post edited by Paul Russell - 2011/03/02 01:50:14
|
ba_midi
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14061
- Joined: 2003/11/05 16:58:18
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 02:14:10
(permalink)
Paul Russell
The Softubes are VST 2.4, but they're beta testing VST3 versions at the moment, with X64 native support on the immediate horizon too.
We've had sidechaining in Sonar for some time, but IMHO it's never been fully implemented.
Like you, I'm also looking at Cubase, but after being on Sonar since version One it's going to be a big learning curve to change.
I used to feel that way - and it's what kept me away from even trying other hosts - aside from the fact Sonar used to meet most of my needs. But since X1 didn't cut it for me (yet), it basically forced me out of my comfort zone. Though I did get into Ableton Live and really like it, it's not quite the same type of host. I got into Studio One quite easily, actually - but it's just not as full featured as I would prefer yet. That kind of leaves Cubase to (re)explore. I haven't touched Cubase since around version 3 I think. I actually don't mind the learning curve stuff. So much of it is all the same these days -- maybe different terminology, and somewhat different ways to go about it. But the basics are pretty much the basics in all hosts now. But all the new looks of X1 aren't enough, even if they are nice. Tools are what matter. Function, features. And stability. I didn't have one single crash with Live to this day (almost 2 years now); and i haven't had one single crash with Studio one (since December). But aside from all that ... tools like side-chaining are must-haves these days. And not being limited to what plugins one can use to do that is important. I guess we'll see how X1B fares. I do expect it will be quite an improvement over X1/A, but whether we get the functionality really needed or not is yet to be determined.
|
guthrart
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
- Total Posts : 327
- Joined: 2006/12/28 20:19:43
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 02:26:46
(permalink)
Hi Paul,
Did you report this to Cakewalk? It's distressing that the VC-64 doesn't sidechain as expected. I like this strip very much.
|
guitarmikeh
Max Output Level: -72 dBFS
- Total Posts : 942
- Joined: 2005/03/11 23:16:02
- Location: ?
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 02:41:10
(permalink)
Sad really, but not surprising, considering.... never mind.
Hope your well Paul.
I harbor no ill will towards any man.
|
guthrart
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
- Total Posts : 327
- Joined: 2006/12/28 20:19:43
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 02:41:16
(permalink)
If a problem isn't reported, CW won't likely fix it. The forum isn't really the place to report bugs, nor to request feature enhancements. There is a form offered to request features as well.
My two cents.
|
Paul Russell
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3892
- Joined: 2003/11/06 23:52:18
- Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 04:30:26
(permalink)
I gave up on the bug reporting system a long time ago and now prefer just to warn users when I come up against something that I really feel needs airing.
Noel and I have swapped emails about sidechaining in 8.5.3 x64 so I know it's been on a list of his, but it's a very long list.
|
n0rd
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 237
- Joined: 2010/11/02 02:18:00
- Location: Down Under (Australia)
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 05:00:47
(permalink)
guitarmikeh
Sad really, but not surprising, considering.... never mind.
^^^
|
Paul Russell
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3892
- Joined: 2003/11/06 23:52:18
- Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 05:42:26
(permalink)
Soon I'll post a video of sidechaining working in X1a
post edited by Paul Russell - 2011/03/02 05:58:51
|
Paul Russell
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3892
- Joined: 2003/11/06 23:52:18
- Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 07:19:43
(permalink)
The fix video is up, showing switching off the 64 bit engine to get the Softube compressors working. It also shows how you can use the Valley People Dynamite as a sidechained expander, which is quite an interesting effect. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yblTG7L4YJg However this fix still does not work on VC-64 Vintage Channel or on the native x64 PSP Mixpressor.
|
Dave Modisette
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11050
- Joined: 2003/11/13 22:12:55
- Location: Brandon, Florida
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 08:02:35
(permalink)
I noticed last year that the sidechaining doesn't work on 3rd party plugs while betatesting Eareckon compressors and limiters when they are on a mono track. We concluded it was a Cakewalk issue and I found a work around. I believe that switching the track to stereo solved the issue.
Like you said, only the SONITUS plugs would sidechain on a mono track.
|
Paul Russell
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3892
- Joined: 2003/11/06 23:52:18
- Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 08:55:28
(permalink)
I didn't test mono. Maybe I should
|
Kroneborge
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1300
- Joined: 2011/01/18 22:14:58
- Location: Lompoc CA (near Santa Barbara)
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 10:22:54
(permalink)
I use side chaining all the time in Izotope Alloy.
|
Jonbouy
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 22562
- Joined: 2008/04/14 13:47:39
- Location: England's Sunshine South Coast
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 10:33:08
(permalink)
WOW That's a biggie. Although up to now most of the creative sidechaining I ever do is actually within a rewire client. These are the kind of things that would be helped (failing a proper fix) by having a bug repository so when you do come across them you don't spend a couple of days trying to work out why it ain't happening. This is a staple for so many producers these days and more and more plugs abound that use this capability, and yet many still consider it whining when failings such as this are brought to attention. Thanks for bringing it up Paul I'm certain that it is going to save me some hair-pulling in the future. And if you ain't going to officially report it via the reporter do you have any objections if I do, citing the videos as demonstrations of the unexpected behaviour? It saves somebody from Cakewalk coming on the forum wanting to see the 'specific behaviour' because they were 'unaware' of it, and how ungrateful we are for picking on them all the time. Cheers
post edited by Jonbouy - 2011/03/02 10:35:48
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
|
Paul Russell
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3892
- Joined: 2003/11/06 23:52:18
- Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 10:43:33
(permalink)
Kroneborge
I use side chaining all the time in Izotope Alloy.
Alloy runs DX rather than VST, so that might not be a problem for you. Are you running the x64 calculation engine? @ Jonbouy, feel free to do whatever you want with the vids.
|
Kroneborge
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1300
- Joined: 2011/01/18 22:14:58
- Location: Lompoc CA (near Santa Barbara)
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 11:18:49
(permalink)
Paul Russell
Kroneborge
I use side chaining all the time in Izotope Alloy.
Alloy runs DX rather than VST, so that might not be a problem for you. Are you running the x64 calculation engine?
@ Jonbouy, feel free to do whatever you want with the vids.
I know I'm running Sonar 64 bit, and I think I'm running the 64 bit engine, although not sure. I know I always see that little check box during mix down.
|
Paul Russell
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3892
- Joined: 2003/11/06 23:52:18
- Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 11:27:58
(permalink)
like I said, Alloy is running DX.
|
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Cakewalk Staff
- Total Posts : 6475
- Joined: 2003/11/03 17:22:50
- Location: Boston, MA, USA
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 12:41:34
(permalink)
I noticed last year that the sidechaining doesn't work on 3rd party plugs while betatesting Eareckon compressors and limiters when they are on a mono track.
I spent a bunch of time fixing some sidechain issues in X1 and this was one of them so it should be working as of X1. You had reported it in this thread: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?high=&m=2046360&mpage=1 If anything X1 is a lot more compatible with sidechain plugins than before.
|
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Cakewalk Staff
- Total Posts : 6475
- Joined: 2003/11/03 17:22:50
- Location: Boston, MA, USA
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 12:48:32
(permalink)
It's quite clear that it's not the third party compressors at fault, but Cakewalk's implementation of the VST 2.4 sidechaining standard.
Ahem thats a bit of a stretch Paul, especially considering that there is no VST 2.4 standard for sidechaining that you talk of. Its also completely incorrect that sidechaining only works with the Sonitus compressor in X1. There is a fair list of plugins that work perfectly with sidechaining in SONAR. I wrote a whitepaper on sidechaining for VST years ago which is a scheme that several vendors follow. You can find it here: http://www.cakewalk.com/devXchange/article.aspx?aid=102 The root issue is that there is no way in VST 2.4 to define explicitly which channel is the sidechain channel. I will look into the specific plugins that you have issues with. As always you MUST report these via our bug tracking system. There is no report for this and hence it was not on the X1B radar. EDIT: I looked at your first video. Your test with the VC-64 is flawed. In your video you do not have the key input enabled on the VC-64 so obviously sidechaining won't work. You are telling VC-64 to ignore its sidechain input! I just tested the VC-64 with sidechaining in X64 with double precision on as well as off and it works perfectly with both stereo and mono content as long as the Key is enabled (see the button called Key in the VC-64 UI) Regarding the other plugins it will have to be investigated on a case by case basis. If they dont work when double precision is on its likely to be a plugin issue since there is really nothing special done in DP mode as far as sidechaining is concerned. As I said above it works perfectly with Vintage channel which is also a VST as well as with other VST plugins. If you have the specific vendor contacts please forward them to me and I will work on on one with them.
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2011/03/02 13:22:32
|
djjhart@aol.com
Max Output Level: -53.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2189
- Joined: 2008/10/24 08:45:46
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 13:28:24
(permalink)
In sonar I only used the sonitus plugins for my sidechaining , The sonitus Gate I find more than adequate for my use.. But the compressor works but compared to the compressor in Presonus , when sidechaining a bass to a kick drum , Wow the pumping sounds so much more relevant in presonus than in sonar. Why is that , I have my settings around the same., would a different compressor give me the results i'm looking for such as in presonus? Pro Channel dosn't cut it either for sidechaining.
Maybe we can get a HOT FiX :Noel: Don't you think hot fixes are the way to go.without having to wait many more months for X1C. All the updates are downloadable so what the big deal, why should we have to wait so long. Its on your Doppler 2000 now so why not fix it and release a fix, simple NO. and No angry customers..
Computer - Intel Q9550, Intel BX48bt2 MB, W8 64 bit. 8 gb Ram, SSD Hardware - Tascam Fw1884 Control surface only, Ni S49 Komplete Kontroll,Roland Quad Capture, Ni Machine,Kore, Focusrite A/D converter, Blue Mic, Roland Gaia, Akai Mpk49, Yamaha HS80 Monitors.Software - Sonar Platinum , Vengeance VPS bundle,Sugar Bytes Effectrix, Turnado, NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Dune, Rob Papen Blade , Delay, Punch Evolved. http://soundcloud.com/johnhartson/tracks http://www.youtube.com/user/jhart1313
|
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Cakewalk Staff
- Total Posts : 6475
- Joined: 2003/11/03 17:22:50
- Location: Boston, MA, USA
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 13:40:51
(permalink)
All compressors are different beasts and sound different sonically. You have to find one that works for what you want.
Curious what you find lacking in the prochannel compressors sidechain capabilities.
|
ba_midi
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14061
- Joined: 2003/11/05 16:58:18
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 14:05:33
(permalink)
djjhart@aol.com
In sonar I only used the sonitus plugins for my sidechaining , The sonitus Gate I find more than adequate for my use.. But the compressor works but compared to the compressor in Presonus , when sidechaining a bass to a kick drum , Wow the pumping sounds so much more relevant in presonus than in sonar. Why is that , I have my settings around the same., would a different compressor give me the results i'm looking for such as in presonus? Pro Channel dosn't cut it either for sidechaining.
Maybe we can get a HOT FiX :Noel: Don't you think hot fixes are the way to go.without having to wait many more months for X1C. All the updates are downloadable so what the big deal, why should we have to wait so long. Its on your Doppler 2000 now so why not fix it and release a fix, simple NO. and No angry customers..
I have to agree with Noel about the difference in compressors. Unless you can accurately and precisely get the same settings (which is almost impossible given the differences in compressor design), it's not a fair comparison. One compressor may use a different scheme (ex: vintage mode versus clean mode), or it may use an RMS detector, and so on. So I wouldn't really use this as a comparison.
|
djjhart@aol.com
Max Output Level: -53.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2189
- Joined: 2008/10/24 08:45:46
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 14:14:24
(permalink)
I know nothing technical only what I hear with my ears..
In presonus they have a pre set for pumping while sidechaining , I use a simple 4/4 kick and bassline , in presonus the ratio set 20-1 threshold, around - 18 db, soft knee a .10ms attack and a longer release around 202.ms . You can clearly hear the pumping..
with the pro channel I can't come close to getting any pumping such as presonus's compressor.. I messed with the settings a million times, I can get the pumping sound with the sonitus , but dosn't sound close to the presonus .. Like you said they are different beasts.. I do love the pro channel when grouping instruments on a bus, Sounds awesome no complaints.
I'm using my ears and they tell me that I cant get that pumping sound as I do with presonus's compressor. Very well can be user error here.. but I love the pumping sound I get out of presonus , really sounds great with my music.
Computer - Intel Q9550, Intel BX48bt2 MB, W8 64 bit. 8 gb Ram, SSD Hardware - Tascam Fw1884 Control surface only, Ni S49 Komplete Kontroll,Roland Quad Capture, Ni Machine,Kore, Focusrite A/D converter, Blue Mic, Roland Gaia, Akai Mpk49, Yamaha HS80 Monitors.Software - Sonar Platinum , Vengeance VPS bundle,Sugar Bytes Effectrix, Turnado, NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Dune, Rob Papen Blade , Delay, Punch Evolved. http://soundcloud.com/johnhartson/tracks http://www.youtube.com/user/jhart1313
|
ba_midi
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14061
- Joined: 2003/11/05 16:58:18
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re:Sidechaining in X1
2011/03/02 14:43:22
(permalink)
djjhart@aol.com
I know nothing technical only what I hear with my ears..
In presonus they have a pre set for pumping while sidechaining , I use a simple 4/4 kick and bassline , in presonus the ratio set 20-1 threshold, around - 18 db, soft knee a .10ms attack and a longer release around 202.ms . You can clearly hear the pumping..
with the pro channel I can't come close to getting any pumping such as presonus's compressor.. I messed with the settings a million times, I can get the pumping sound with the sonitus , but dosn't sound close to the presonus .. Like you said they are different beasts.. I do love the pro channel when grouping instruments on a bus, Sounds awesome no complaints.
I'm using my ears and they tell me that I cant get that pumping sound as I do with presonus's compressor. Very well can be user error here.. but I love the pumping sound I get out of presonus , really sounds great with my music.
If I'm not mistaken, only one of the PC compressors does side-chaining, not both. Are you sure you're using the right one for that?
|