"Essential" is a strong word. And in this case it is over the top. Sonar is essential. No single plugin that resides within it is "essential"...useful or "mindblowing" are better choices. But let us not forget that music used to be played with none of these effects and gadgets...and the world still spun on its axis. Use the word "essential" correctly - as in "It is essential to always have an extra e string or two in your guitar case."

...and, just to add something to my previous post regarding Kreative's TV analogy...
 
There are already TV's that have functions which are software based, and I'm sure we will "get used to" seeing many of these not working correctly pending some "future update" to fix it.  My BluRay player already downloads software patches for all the IP-enabled functions (such as Netflix, etc.) and these updates seem to be occurring on an almost weekly-basis.
 
Maybe we need to "Occupy Silicon Valley" or something...

relpomiraculous


"Essential" is a strong word. And in this case it is over the top. Sonar is essential. No single plugin that resides within it is "essential"...useful or "mindblowing" are better choices. But let us not forget that music used to be played with none of these effects and gadgets...and the world still spun on its axis. Use the word "essential" correctly - as in "It is essential to always have an extra e string or two in your guitar case."

Let's put it this way. If you do contract work, you probably cannot afford to pick up clients based on their talent. The music world as it is today is full of talentless people relying on gimmicks like Autotune, inspiring other even less talented people to give it a shot at becoming music stars.

If the next Rebecca Black's mother drop by tomorrow and offers you money to help launch her daughter's career, these tools will be essential. Unless you maintain very strict ethics and don't need the cash to put food on the table, you need to be able to offer that to your clients in order to remain competitive.

I'm fortunate enough not to have to deal w/ those people, so I never use such devices, but I certainly can see why it is essential to some.

After taking some wise advice and reading up on what ARA does I have to say I am intrigued.

VariousArtist

Kreative

...

Can you imagine buying a television and getting it in your home, only to find out later that you need to wait for a period of several months for "updates" that will enable it to become fully functional? How would you like that? [You would not like that!] But, yet, this is the world that we live in with many software applications. And most of us enable this world to be as it is by our cooperation with it, as do I. How did anyone allow this to happen?

...

Hello Kreative,


I have often made exactly the same TV analogy, and I agree that no-one would find that acceptable.  


Unless, perhaps, if the semi-functioning TV cost the consumer a small fraction of a regular TV.  I'm willing to bet that many people would accept that risk if they could buy a 42" flat-screen TV for $50.  In fact, we see this exact behaviour when it comes to making long-distance or international phone calls, where most have welcomed incredibly low prices (relative to what they were 10 years ago) or even free calls (over IP), but often at the expense of poor and frequently dropped connections.


The analogy I am alluding to in my previous paragraph is that, in many ways, we are getting the power of a high-end, multi-track studio recording equipment at the fraction of the price.  We would not expect (or maybe not be so prepared to stand for) a malfunctioning hardware fader on a $10,000 mixing desk.  But for a couple of hundred bucks to get something that does all that and more, with a stream of new features added per year, we have come to accept less stability.  Which answers your last question "How did anyone allow this to happen?"

This is IMHO, of course.  And by no way do I mean to imply that I think this attitude is okay.  It is (and I hate this phrase, but...can't...resist) what it is.

Yes, VA, given the enormous complexity of hardware and software interaction, combined with the mere promise of so many features and functions for an affordable price is truly captivating to most of us, indeed, and probably the very reason for why these numerous updates do exist, undoubtedly. But in the balance of things, we can hope that software developers will not take unfair advantage of this situation, and will produce a functional product that does live up to the expectations of their customers, sooner, rather than later.



With the convergence of television and computer, we may in fact be waiting for updates to make things work properly. I have no doubt that is coming.

Just another gentler reminder:  Melodyne does much, much more than just correct the pitch of a lousy singer.  You don't even have to use it on vocals.  If one isn't familiar with it there are many tutorials and YouTube videos that can hip you to it's amazing powers.  And no, I don't work for Celemony:-)

Whether they implement it or not, the one thing I see is that Cakewalk has GOT to seriously bring it w/ the next version of Sonar!!!  Studio One and other new DAW's are making progress VERY fast and many of them seem to get much more respect than Sonar in the professional world already.
 
I think a lot of people are giving Cake the benefit of the doubt w/ X1 considering it was a major overhaul but if they don't make some serious strides in the next version I think they will see a lot of people start to go elsewhere.  Especially w/ the new kids on the block like S1, Reaper, etc. covering the amount of ground they're covering in such a short amount of time. 
 
Also, I'm sorry but Melodyne is leaps and bounds better than V-Vocal.  But I think they'll probably try to do some kind of major V-Vocal overhaul to try and compete w/ ARA before they go the route of adopting it.  But honestly I think they'd be better off dropping V-Vocal and leaving that type of tech to a company like Celemony who have already implemented the tech in a much more superior way.  Then Cake can focus on the actual DAW itself rather than the bells and whistles.
 
The pressure is on imo. 

Dappa1


ARA could never be implemented into Sonar reason being, is the code factor, plus it works well with a sophisticated audio engine. It would take years for it to be implemented into Cakewalk and thats only if they make the engine gapless, which would mean a complete overall. It's not happening, well...not in the foreseeable future.

No, I don't know what you get this wild idea from?  
 
A week of kompetent programming by Cakewalk and you are up running, perhaps even less time. 
Presonus and Celemony has done all work already so it's not like Cakewalk need to invent it, it's there FREE and ready for anyone to use it. Its a extension an API extension, so what's the BIG problem?
 
The only thing Cakewalk need to do is to send a email to Celemony and then Celemony send all codes and information you need to know how to implemented it in SONAR.
 
 
 
Best Regards
Freddie
 
 
 

When will Cakewalk and Roland get MELODYNE ARA implemented in Sonar? Well, after looking at this issue closely today, and thinking about it rationally, I have an answer for you - NEVER. Why? Because long before Cakewalk developers will expend time and energy implementing a one-off code for a single plugin, they are going to put Kinetic 2 into the Matrix view and make the Matrix compatible with the APC40, Maschine and the Kore 2 controller - and suddenly take market share from Ableton. And what are the odds of THAT happening? ZERO. So I have a solution for both of us - you buy Melodyne and use it as a plug in in Sonar and I will buy Ableton and Maschine and the APC40 and use it as a plug in in Sonar and now Sonar doesn't have to waste time on EITHER!

Let's put it this way. If you do contract work, you probably cannot afford to pick up clients based on their talent. The music world as it is today is full of talentless people relying on gimmicks like Autotune, inspiring other even less talented people to give it a shot at becoming music stars. If the next Rebecca Black's mother drop by tomorrow and offers you money to help launch her daughter's career, these tools will be essential. Unless you maintain very strict ethics and don't need the cash to put food on the table, you need to be able to offer that to your clients in order to remain competitive. I'm fortunate enough not to have to deal w/ those people, so I never use such devices, but I certainly can see why it is essential to some.

 
Wow, that is a really sad state of affairs. Untalented musicians are not really musicians and have no hope of "making it" in the real world without mega support from the business. It sounds like these people you describe could use a dose of Simon to bring them down to earth. I think it still stands that an artist is going nowhere fast without a loyal following. Used to be an artist or band had to "pay their dues" and become an overnight sensation after 25 years of playing clubs. Now there aren't as many venues thanks to government regulations on smoking... so not as many clube for bands to play and get ripped off... however there are now shows like Idol and X-Factor where an artist garners a loyal following in a matter of weeks and gets promoted. The truly talented ones who have sung for years in church or other places and are somewhat levelheaded have a shot at a career in performing arts... but there are not many artists who can just record and be sucessful (people who do sountracks are not what I am talking about, but performers)... the only band that comes to mind is Steely Dan.
So, it leads me to think that untalented people who use gimics like autotune will usually hit the floor of the real world like a cllege graduate with a piece of paper and who does not understand why they cannot do the job they have been trained to do in college.. the real world is pitiless when it comes to performance and skill.
 
I'm glad to hear you aren't using stuff like this to help people think that they are something they are not... then again I guess everyone deserves a chance and all the help someone can give them... perhaps someone will see the potential and jump in and get the artist training and help them reach their potential.
 
Personally, I think autotune is a really dangerous tool, people did without it for a LONG time and they worked until they could do it or maybe there were imperfections in recordings. I think music, particularly rock music loses something when it gets too perfect. Just my opinion... I reserve the right to be wrong and Rain, I did get it that you are not having to do this. I am glad.

Freddie H

Dappa1


ARA could never be implemented into Sonar reason being, is the code factor, plus it works well with a sophisticated audio engine. It would take years for it to be implemented into Cakewalk and thats only if they make the engine gapless, which would mean a complete overall. It's not happening, well...not in the foreseeable future.

No, I don't know what you get this wild idea from?  
 
A week of kompetent programming by Cakewalk and you are up running, perhaps even less time. 
Presonus and Celemony has done all work already so it's not like Cakewalk need to invent it, it's there FREE and ready for anyone to use it. Its a extension an API extension, so what's the BIG problem?
 
The only thing Cakewalk need to do is to send a email to Celemony and then Celemony send all codes and information you need to know how to implemented it in SONAR.
 
 
 
Best Regards
Freddie
 
 
 

Freddie:
You have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about. Ever do any coding on anything as complex as Sonar? I think not.  Besides the coding there's the testing they would have to do in-house before it even gets out to the masses. Granted Cakewalk doesn't have to write the ARA program itself but they have to make it work in Sonar. Would you want them to do something half-baked like they did with X1?

I'd like to nail my colours to the mast and state definitely for the record that I have no idea whether this would be easy or difficult to implement.

I can almost guarantee

Hmm. Bit of an oxymoron, that.

John T

I can almost guarantee

Hmm. Bit of an oxymoron, that.

Classic John T non-response.

I was reading the Presomus site and watching some of the Studio One 2 videos this morning... (since I woke up at 4:00 AM... arrrh) I saw somewhere in my reading that ARA was developed jointly by Celemony and Presonus... so I doubt it is going to be adopted by Sonar anytime soon. Then again stranger things have happened.

J