And just because I'm the helpful guy I am do this....
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3328846
 
and if that futzes up do this...
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3328855
 
Okay?

williamcopper
And I'd scour this forum for posts like this one.

 
Unfortunately no one from Cakewalk could benefit from the information you provided in this thread. There is virtually no information on which anyone can act - no data on how to reproduce, no indication of the exact nature of the project, whether you used multiple single instances of Kontakt or multiple instruments within a single instance of Kontakt, whether there was scripting involved in the Kontakt programs, etc. etc.
 
It's all well and good to follow false trails...but it's probably better not to ask people to follow you on your false trails until you can present at least somewhat more substantive information than a couple sentences and screen shot from another program, which you apparently don't know very well if don't know how to invert phase - so there's another variable. (FYI you can invert the right and/or left channels in the Object Editor. Or select the object and choose Invert Phase for either or both channels from the Real Time effects.)
 
What you've presented contradicts all the experiences I've had with multiple projects over several years that involved rendering and bouncing. Therefore if I've never encountered the issue and you can't provide a method to reproduce, I don't find your information particularly compelling. Nor do I understand why you brought the files into Samplitude. Once the MIDI has been converted to audio, it's audio and a start time differential would show up in any program, including SONAR. Maybe you exported the audio outside of SONAR...who knows...
 
Those whose motivation is improving the program and who cannot provide steps to reproduce send projects to Cakewalk so that they can be analyzed. Cakewalk has an extensive collection of programs, including Kontakt, with which they do extensive testing because it's a popular instrument among SONAR users.

whew.   the reason I used samplitude is another bug in sonar that I reported six months ago or so:  the pictures of audio in sonar, apparently under the influence of tempo changes, are not at all accurate.    Thanks for the info on phase inverting in samplitude; I did in fact use the help system, though on my installation it comes up in German for some reason, and found it out too. 

Beepster


IF YOU DO NOT FREEZE IT THEN THE EXPORTS WILL BE SUBJECT TO THE RANDOMIZATION OF THE SYNTH AND EFFECTS!!!!
 
ANY TESTS DONE LIKE THAT WILL LIKELY NOT NULL DUE TO THE RANDOMIZATION!!!!
 
THAT IS THE FREAKING POINT!!!!
 
You are accusing the Sonar export process(es) of being inconsistent. WHAT I DESCRIBED IS THE ONLY WAY TO TEST IT!!!!
 
If you DO understand this then you are just wasting people's time intentionally... thus making you a troll.

Do the tests, with the freezes or any point you have is "null"... pun intended.

I have to think you don't use midi ever, so it's probably better for you to bow out of this.   As I've said before to you, am not troll ruff ruff ruff. 
 
If Kontakt 'randomizes' a specific sample, no scripting involved because I made the instrument as described far above, then yes that's a Kontakt problem.   But it seems to me that in such a case Kontakt would also randomize the same Bounce to Tracks done the same way, and I've also shown that that is NOT the case.  

williamcopper
I have to think you don't use midi ever, so it's probably better for you to bow out of this.   As I've said before to you, am not troll ruff ruff ruff. 
 
If Kontakt 'randomizes' a specific sample, no scripting involved because I made the instrument as described far above, then yes that's a Kontakt problem.   But it seems to me that in such a case Kontakt would also randomize the same Bounce to Tracks done the same way, and I've also shown that that is NOT the case.  

Dood... you do not understand what is going on (or are being intentionally obtuse). There is nothing left I can say that will make you understand WHY the export engine needs RAW, CONISTENT audio for these types of tests.
 
So I'll just say this... your entire thread premise is faulty. There is nothing wrong with Sonar export and you have absolutely NOT proven anything to the contrary.
 
 

williamcopper
That doesn't mean he is always right or always nice, however.
 

Now THAT I can agree with.

williamcopper

Beepster
 
 
Dood... you do not understand what is going on (or are being intentionally obtuse). There is nothing left I can say that will make you understand WHY the export engine needs RAW, CONISTENT audio for these types of tests.
 
So I'll just say this... your entire thread premise is faulty. There is nothing wrong with Sonar export and you have absolutely NOT proven anything to the contrary.
 
 

 
DOOD:  this is not about sonar export, my friend.  It is about how Sonar renders midi run through Kontakt to make an audio track.   Can I say it more clearly?  I don't know how.

I understand what you are doing. You are not going to get a consistent result. The wild card is the synth and how it interprets/plays back the MIDI on each pass.
 
Perhaps you should go yell at the NI boards about it. I'm sure they'll have just as much fun as we have here.
 
Based on the data here you are accusing the Sonar export process for the discrepancies. That is completely flawed logic.

Another thing to examine (ye testers of testosterone) is that "tail effect" of using "Bounce to Tracks" with a selection of midi data and VST output tracks.   You bounce ... silently .. and at the end there's that little explosion of sound.     I've always ignored it, but parenthetically, as mentioned in one of the many posts above, sometimes it can surprisingly show up at the beginning of the next Bounce to Track for a different selection, different VST. 

For any one's fun: here are two audio samples, the first mixed from 5 audio tracks made with "Fast Bounce", as above Midi and Kontakt.   The second mixed from the same time range, the same source tracks, and made with "Fast Bounce, 64 Bit Engine".     They are different, they sound different. 
 
Download of the wav file should be enabled.   These are very brief, about 9 seconds.
 
https://soundcloud.com/williamcopper/0513-2-fastbounce-test
 
and
 
https://soundcloud.com/williamcopper/0513-2-64bit-test
 
For me, the 64bit engine option, whatever it does, sounds very nearly like the original, while the ordinary fast bounce option, which I have usually used, does NOT sound quite the same.   (edit) And THAT is why I posted here!!!
 

williamcopper
Just that it's a lot of work, and mostly geared toward fingering Kontakt as the bad guy here.  

Yes, it'll take some effort, but it's well worth it. And no, Kontakt is not assumed to be the bad guy. You need to find  out whether reported inconsistency happens only with Sonar or with other DAWs as well.

Beepster, I did not delete anything at all from the OP.   I added one sentence of additional definition, and marked it as an edit.     Don't go irrational on us please.

Another great tactic. Once you've gotten enough bites/angered enough people accuse THEM of being irrational.
 
Classic!
 
Do the tests as I posted if you want to test the export consistencies.
 
Your "new" issue (Sonar improperly outputting MIDI to synths)... well I have no idea how one would test that because once the MIDI hits the synth the synth will do whatever it's gonna do to the audio... thus creating potential variations in any bounces/exports.
 
That was NOT the original issue though and unless it is causing severely and audibly out of whack playback there IS no issue. Merely navel gazing.

Below is quote from williamcopper aimed at Craig Anderton (Author of "MIDI for Musicians", Author of so many Synth manuals that I have lost track, Panel member At NAAM 2013 "Past, Present and Future of MIDI" along with Alan Parsons, Tom Oberheim, Dave Smith, Jordan Rudess & George Duke, etc., etc....) :-
 

williamcopper
 
I have to think you don't use midi ever, so it's probably better for you to bow out of this.   As I've said before to you, am not troll ruff ruff ruff. 

This is one of the funniest things I have ever seen on the internet..

Beepster

jb101
Below is quote from williamcopper aimed at Craig Anderton (Author of "MIDI for Musicians", Author of so many Synth manuals that I have lost track, Panel member At NAAM 2013 "Past, Present and Future of MIDI" along with Alan Parsons, Tom Oberheim, Dave Smith, Jordan Rudess & George Duke, etc., etc....) :-
 

williamcopper
 
I have to think you don't use midi ever, so it's probably better for you to bow out of this.   As I've said before to you, am not troll ruff ruff ruff. 

This is one of the funniest things I have ever seen on the internet..

To be fair I think that was directed at me. It is still inaccurate because I DO use MIDI rather regularly these days but I am by no means an expert and CERTAINLY not as experienced as Craig.
 
But willie is still completely missing any and all points that have been made in this thread. Whether that is intentional or not only he really knows.

My mistake. Sorry. 

ampfixer
I fail to see why a graphic representation of your output should be considered the final word. This gets more confusing when the visual is generated outside of Sonar. Wouldn't the null test be the last word on accuracy? It's not a graphics program, it's an audio program. I don't see why you guys are all fighting about it. I use the visual bit of track view to see that there is data and if it looks to be free of clipping. I never considered the wave preview as something I would bet the farm on, particularly when monitors and graphics cards are all over the map in terms of quality.
 
Are the outputs of the two processes identical? Ask a blind man.

Always smarter, gets Yoda. As nearer draws Star Wars, hmmm?
 
Null tests are indeed the last word on accuracy, but only if the condition under which they are produced is identical. Copper is sufficiently sloppy in his methodology, and so opaque and condescending is his descriptions, that we may never know the issues with which he is actually dealing.
 
And waveform drawing...right Yoda is. But ears, listen to music Yoda does! Listening with eyes, Yoda tried...unsatisfactory experience, did he find.