John
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/04 22:28:29
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I'm enjoying this thread now! 
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Anderton
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/04 22:57:52
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williamcopper
I know exactly which sample is playing when, because I created the sample and the instrument that calls it.
Actually no, you didn't create the instrument. You assembled a variety of modules created by Native Instruments into a preset. You did not write the code for those modules nor did you write the code for the audio engine. The reason why I know this is because I wrote the original manual for Kontakt. I knew of no William Copper involved with creating any of the core functionality of the instruments, or being involved with any of the people doing the coding. No one knows how you have Preferences set, how you're choosing to stream, and how much memory you've allocated to RAM to allow for near-instantaneous streaming from disk. If you're streaming from disk mostly or exclusively, there are seek times involved and 30 ms actually seems about right. Or maybe you don't have a clue how to set the preferences, or know how to make intelligent tradeoffs to optimize Kontakt's audio engine...not that the problem is even necessarily with Kontakt any more than it is with SONAR. In years of using SONAR with projects of considerable complexity, I've never encountered what you claim to have encountered and I described why I can say that statement with certainty. However I am open-minded, dedicated to fostering improvements, and always open to the possibility that other workflows can uncover issues I would never encounter. If you sincerely want to get to the root of this, give us a recipe to reproduce what you've experienced rather than opaque descriptions. I don't think it's fair to expect us to keep asking question after question to find out information that you should have provided initially.
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Anderton
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williamcopper
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 01:30:03
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Thanks for all the additional comedy. To the one comment that might seem to have been helpful to the innocent reader: "just use Freeze". Can't you, John, get it that a "Freeze" is a very long process, and undoing the Freeze is even longer. It takes longer to freeze a simple section of midi data being sent to a fully loaded Kontakt instance than it does to do the Slow, Audible bounce ... much longer. And then in order to do any work at all on the project (which is entirely midi and Kontakt, remember) you have to UNfreeze and that takes much much longer again. Another problem with Freeze as implemented in sonar is you are forced to have as many 'frozen audio' tracks as there are VST outputs ... so freeze adds significantly to the organization issues involved in a many-track project. Even though I can waste days trying to track down why errors happen, I am very concerned with day-after-day speed of work flow. Rendering midi, to use Cubase's word for it, or Fast bounce of Midi ("Bounce to Tracks, Fast option checked") is a very rapid and useful tool; Freeze is a very slow and useless tool for a system with plenty of memory. Answering Craig's observation, "I woulda noticed it" ... if you always Render midi the same way, the same options, and use all the rendered audio together, then afaik there will be no time alignment issues. There MIGHT be, I think there is, some sound differences in the different options for rendering via Bouce to Tracks ... and as I have shown, there is likely to be some time alignment issues in Rendering Midi using the different options, when there should not be such alignment problems .. again, because the entire midi project is a time-exact rendition of music, it should not change depending on how it is rendered, other than by round robin or other randomizations which I've gone to great lengths to indicate are probably not the issue here.
post edited by williamcopper - 2015/12/05 01:51:27
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Adq
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 01:44:04
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☄ Helpfulby williamcopper 2015/12/05 03:19:10
Uncheck Browser->Synth(down arrow)->Unload Synths On Disconnect
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John
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 01:57:29
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williamcopper
Thanks for all the additional comedy. To the one comment that might seem to have been helpful to the innocent reader: "just use Freeze". Can't you, John, get it that a "Freeze" is a very long process, and undoing the Freeze is even longer. It takes longer to freeze a simple section of midi data being sent to a fully loaded Kontakt instance than it does to do the Slow, Audible bounce ... much longer. And then in order to do any work at all on the project (which is entirely midi and Kontakt, remember) you have to UNfreeze and that takes much much longer again. Another problem with Freeze as implemented in sonar is you are forced to have as many 'frozen audio' tracks as there are VST outputs ... so freeze adds significantly to the organization issues involved in a many-track project.
Even though I can waste days trying to track down why errors happen, I am very concerned with day-after-day speed of work flow. Rendering midi, to use Cubase's word for it, or Fast bounce of Midi ("Bounce to Tracks, Fast option checked") is a very rapid and useful tool; Freeze is a very slow and useless tool for a system with plenty of memory.
Answering Craig's observation, "I woulda noticed it" ... if you always Render midi the same way, the same options, and use all the rendered audio together, then afaik there will be no time alignment issues. There MIGHT be, I think there is, some sound differences in the different options for rendering via Bouce to Tracks ... and as I have shown, there is likely to be some time alignment issues in Rendering Midi using the different options, when there should not be such alignment problems .. again, because the entire midi project is a time-exact rendition of music, it should not change depending on how it is rendered, other than by round robin or other randomizations which I've gone to great lengths to indicate are probably not the issue here.
Freeze is very fast on my machine. Keep in mind freeze and bounce in Sonar are the same thing. There is a real time freeze and a fast freeze (Fast Bounce). If your freezes are slow you may be using real time not fast bounce. Its an option in the freeze button in the synth rack. Which is in the Browser.
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Adq
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 02:02:06
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I don't understand what do you want. Is it
1. Render always should be the same - wrong
2. My renders are different, I want to know why - makes sense, do research, find, tell us.
But it seems it is
3. My renders are different, so go everybody and find why, Cakewalk must do research, why my project renders are different, I have no time to do it, it might be a bug - totally unconstructive.
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williamcopper
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 03:18:56
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Thanks for the info, shaking my head at CW ... putting preferences in yet another place ... never occurred to me that the little freeze button on the synth might have its own options. So, yes, I was doing fast freeze, but the little tidbit there about how the tail is handled might be a great thing to have in the render as 'Bounce to Tracks'. Adq, yes, #2: my renders are different and I want to know why. Also, and this has been going on for as long as I've used Sonar, sometimes my final mixdown is not quite the same as what I think i had been working with --- and there have been many posts in this forum over the years saying the same thing. Many reasons, no doubt ... but this render issue is one of them. And on the one hand, John says "Freeze and bounce to tracks are the same thing"; on the other hand Adq says "Renders are not always the same". I do not understand WHY they are not the same, but I certainly agree that they in fact aren't the same. But once again, if they are NOT THE SAME, then something is guaranteed to be different in a render one way or another than in the same project without a render. As, once more, in the OP picture --- same line up, but the sound is not the same. And before anyone says yet again, "variation in Kontakt", for the ninth time: Render the SAME WAY, the SAME OPTIONS, the SAME MATERIAL, does not vary significantly. It's always the same. I posted comparison audio, 9 seconds, downloadable for comparison. No one has bothered to do it. Yes, it's different. Yes, this is bad. Probably this is Sonar's fault.
post edited by williamcopper - 2015/12/05 03:34:29
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Adq
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 03:39:01
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williamcopper
And before anyone says yet again, "variation in Kontakt", for the ninth time: Render the SAME WAY, the SAME OPTIONS, the SAME MATERIAL, does not vary significantly. It's always the same.
I don't understand it, what does it mean "does not vary significantly"? I can't see this files. Do several renders, few with same settings, few with other, and so on, name it properly, pack it in zip file, and give the direct link to download. But even if there is no difference with same settings, and there is difference with different settings, you can't just render the whole project to find the reason. You must narrow the problem, that is to find the minimum possible project that gives difference. It should be something like one Kontakt instance, minimum effects in Kontakt enabled, one or few midi notes and so on. Then you should try it in other DAWs. And only after that that would or would not be something to talk about.
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williamcopper
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 04:15:18
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No, adq, if I did all you specify, sure I'd be a hero. But that is a hell of a lot of work, and I do try to write music.
Here's yet another aside: because of the asinine way Sonar handles preferences, I try never, ever to use "new project" because that's going to change things on old projects and it's a very unpleasant easter egg hunt to track down all those changes. One that I know and loathe, just for instance, is "zero controllers when play stops". Snap settings get screwed up, colors get screwed up. I'm sure there are work-arounds for all this, but I've learned simply never to create a new project --- anything that is begun is begun as a copy from an older project. Even then that despised zero controllers somehow gets checked again and again, and the snap magnetism gets reset.
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williamcopper
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 04:21:38
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I'm finished with this problem report. Here's my personal solution:
For midi renders, always use fast bounce with 64-bit engine checked .. as near as I can tell it is the closest to the original material, and the small time shift comes from not checking that 64 bit option. If I want to listen, I'll listen after the render, and will never use slow bounce with audible sounds.
The tail problem I'll continue to ignore ... pushing 'play' in between renders with fast bounce seems to clear it out of the bouncing engine's recollection.
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Adq
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 04:29:32
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williamcopper
But that is a hell of a lot of work.
No that is not, it is usual work routine. williamcopper
No, adq, if I did all you specify, sure I'd be a hero.
No, you would not, but if you would not do it, you would be ... the opposite.
post edited by Adq - 2015/12/05 04:44:57
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rabeach
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 04:31:35
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I don't own kontakt so I inserted the dimpro synth in sonar using a simple guitar patch with a midi A major pentatonic scale. Bounced to track with fast bounce and then with fast bounce and the 64 bit engine enabled. Resulting in two audio tracks. Then I inverted the phase on one track. This resulted in dead silence.
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Soundwise
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 04:34:37
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Willam, here is an excerpt from a Kontakt library manual MM-Bass randomly chooses between different types of release samples, fret noises and
when to insert pickup-hits. This randomness gives more variation and a more realistic sound.
However, it is also good to be able to predict the behavior to know that your song will sound
exactly the same each time you play it. This is possible by using the B-1 key switch to reset
the instrument. In order to get the same result each time you play back your song insert a
B-1 key switch note in the beginning of the song.
The velocity with which this key switch is played determines the random sequence of values
which controls release samples, fret noises and timing of pickup-hits. You can use any veloc
ity, but please note that if you change the velocity of this initial B-1 key switch note you will
get a completely different sequence of release samples, fret noises and pickup-hits.  When you do your tests, please keep in mind, that instruments may need to be reset first, prior to exporting audio.
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williamcopper
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 11:09:47
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Thanks, soundwise. As I said in one or more of the many posts, the instrument used in my tests had no randomization, no key switches, no round robins, no mid controller at that moment, no scripting. It was a home made instrument from a bunch of wave files; the wave files were part of a commercial package I own, but they were all extracted, tuned, and made mono outside of kontakt and then made part of a kontakt 'group' and that became a kontakt 'instrument'. Being the obsessive kind of person I am, however, continuing to do new tests. Taking a much simpler setup, it appears that the different varieties of bounce do line up and do sound and look very similar, though they don't null out in the phase-inversion test. The 'bounce echo' from the end of one bounce is indeed recorded at the beginning of the next bounce. And THAT is a plain and simple bug, but it might not be the cause of the original problems. Here's a hypothesis for how sonar might be messing up: the routing of the target track (using 'Bounce to Track' requires a target track) might in fact affect the result of the bounce, even though the target track is not part of the selected group of tracks being rendered. All the source routing I had double checked as consistent through out the bouncing, but if you accept "new track" for the target track, it creates its own version of what it thinks you want for routing ... and that was different from what I had assigned in the other target tracks.
post edited by williamcopper - 2015/12/05 11:21:49
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williamcopper
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 11:17:28
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I would think the target-track-routing speculation would be easy to test, but it's outside my experience because I never do complicated routing or inserts: create a target track with an extraordinarily full and complicated routing, certain to introduce a great deal of latency, and render midi to that track.
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Beepster
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 11:42:57
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williamcopper
Thanks, soundwise. As I said in one or more of the many posts, the instrument used in my tests had no randomization, no key switches, no round robins, no mid controller at that moment, no scripting. It was a home made instrument from a bunch of wave files; the wave files were part of a commercial package I own, but they were all extracted, tuned, and made mono outside of kontakt and then made part of a kontakt 'group' and that became a kontakt 'instrument'.
Being the obsessive kind of person I am, however, continuing to do new tests. Taking a much simpler setup, it appears that the different varieties of bounce do line up and do sound and look very similar, though they don't null out in the phase-inversion test. The 'bounce echo' from the end of one bounce is indeed recorded at the beginning of the next bounce. And THAT is a plain and simple bug, but it might not be the cause of the original problems.
Here's a hypothesis for how sonar might be messing up: the routing of the target track (using 'Bounce to Track' requires a target track) might in fact affect the result of the bounce, even though the target track is not part of the selected group of tracks being rendered. All the source routing I had double checked as consistent through out the bouncing, but if you accept "new track" for the target track, it creates its own version of what it thinks you want for routing ... and that was different from what I had assigned in the other target tracks.
So you've got a reverb or delay on the track which has been mentioned WILL cause variations in the live audio... which is why it needs to be frozen BEFORE the tests. Then they will (should) null. If you had just listened to what was being said and performed the tests as they were laid out instead of arguing, blaming Sonar and trying to convince everyone how awesome and intelligent you are you would have saved yourself AND everyone else a buttload of time. You are in NO way qualified to professionally test this software... so stop pretending you are and get on with making music. Cripes... I'm an uneducated idiot/n00b/hack and even I knew how to test this accurately. I would never DREAM of applying for a paid alpha testing position or suggesting I am capable of filling such a position. If you were in such a position you would have wasted untold man hours/resources arguing your point with the programmers instead of making the slightest effort to understand WHY your tests were failing miserably. I'm sure though you are going to continue to blame Sonar for things you simply do not understand (or do and choose to ignore for teh lulz). I also notice you DID NOT acknowledge that you would at least try to apply the mechanism that Soundwise referred to. Just that you are so wicked awesome that you don't NEED to put proper scientific controls in place to do your tests. Nope. Physics should bend to your will... because... reasons. And if they don't it's Sonar's fault. But at least you, after endless posts, scaled back your experiment to a smaller project so good for you. Based on your results we can conclude that IF you actually disabled the reverb/delay AND properly eliminated any possibility of randomization/variations coming from the synth then Sonar's exports WILL null for you on YOUR system meaning there IS no problem with Sonar export or even your system when not pushed to the point of maxing out your resources. Case closed. You're welcome for my "professional" consultation. I will waive my fee for all services rendered... being the "helpful guy I am". lulz
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williamcopper
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 12:33:29
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And here I thought you'd say, Wow!!! You found another one and pin-pointed the cause. Great work! Not sure why all your rant about reverb in this latest: I had said earlier there was a reverb and it was possible it would cause some small variation in the sound. The point here is that the OUTPUT (ie, TARGET) TRACK and NOT get it NOT the SOURCE TRACK(s) is possibly causing changes in bounce to track. Why a target track's routing should have anything to do with the bounce, I couldn't tell you. I'd call it a bug, but if this is in fact the source of discrepancy at least that knowledge can be added to all the other things to know about and be wary of in using this software. I also don't understand why you keep insisting on Freeze ... that's not part of the issue. As I've explained at length, though perhaps not perfectly clearly. I don't guarantee this Target Output Routing is the problem ... as I said I don't do routing work and could easily introduce some new factor into the test.
post edited by williamcopper - 2015/12/05 12:45:52
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Beepster
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 13:00:36
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☄ Helpfulby Zargg71 2015/12/05 13:47:24
You are completely mistaken. You do not understand what is going on or how digital audio works.
Just stop. Your "issue" has been explained and your claim disproven. Just because you are unwilling to understand the problem or do the proper tests does not mean your arguments are valid.
It's over. Go scrounge for your next "bug" to complain about. In the meantime do some research on the differences between analog vs. digital audio.
Hint: In the analog world creating EXACT replicas of audio files is impossible due to the nature of the physical world. Check out the concepts of "phasing" and "flanging" and whatever else those topics lead you to.
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John
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 13:13:07
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☄ Helpfulby Zargg71 2015/12/05 13:47:07
williamcopper
Thanks for the info, shaking my head at CW ... putting preferences in yet another place ... never occurred to me that the little freeze button on the synth might have its own options. So, yes, I was doing fast freeze, but the little tidbit there about how the tail is handled might be a great thing to have in the render as 'Bounce to Tracks'.
Seriously you didn't know that freeze had options? Just what and who do you consult about? This has been in Sonar ever since CW put freeze in Sonar. Personally I believe Sonar has the best freeze in the industry.
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Beepster
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 13:18:16
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Also look up the Nyquist theorum that details the PRECISE nature of how physical sounds can be turned into precise digital information (1's and 0's) and then compare that to how analog methods of recording (such as tape or wax/vinyl) work.
When we do math we do this...
2 + 2 = 4
We don't do this...
2(x) + 2 = 4
By refusing to eliminate (or at least find the value of) "x" in your equation you completely spoil your results.
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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 13:37:47
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As a side-effect of this thread I'm downloading Kontakt 5..... I hope you guys are happy you've caused me such expense  Grum
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kevinwal
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 16:04:35
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As I recall from a comment Noel (maybe?) made, instruments have the option to process fast and real time bounces differently. And after reading all of the verbiage in this thread, I can't see how Sonar can be an issue here. If it was the bounce engine itself, you should be able to duplicate the issue with any vsti. If that is the case, the OP should have no trouble creating a sample project demonstrating the issue along with a recipe to reproduce, and submit it to Cakewalk as part of a formal bug report. I assure you, any developer would be happy to have such a repro project in hand for such a fundamental flaw. Oh crap. I just fell into the rathole.
post edited by kevinwal - 2015/12/05 16:19:01
Kevin Walsh My latest tunes are at Reverbnation, please give a listen! EVGA X58 Classified III, 24GB Kingston RAM, i7/970 6 core256GB SSD, 2TB HDWindows 10 Build 10586, Sonar Platinum, 2016.03MOTU 8Pre Interface
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rabeach
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 18:18:26
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why not just uncheck the "track fx" and "bus fx" boxes from the bounce window and see if the two tracks null.
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Anderton
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 18:21:11
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williamcopper
Thanks for the info, shaking my head at CW ... putting preferences in yet another place ... never occurred to me that the little freeze button on the synth might have its own options.
You can shake your head at Cakewalk all you want, but you would benefit much more by realizing that there are UI standards for both Windows and Mac. It doesn't matter whether you find those standards logical or not; even most beginning users are aware of these standards, so Cakewalk follows them. That way users can have a more consistent experience as they work with various programs from various manufacturers. Right-click context-sensitive menus are NOT preferences in the sense of a Preference page that deals with global aspects of the program. Context-sensitive means just that. I've learned a lot by right-clicking on things and seeing what was available. Some buttons, like Record and Smart Grid, open up the global Preferences page that relates to those parameters so you can change global characteristics in the context of those parameters rapidly, without having to go Edit > Preferences and then look for the page with the parameters you need. Other right-clicks, like the Freeze and Toolbar buttons, the Pro Channel, tracks in the Track view, metering, etc., are more specific in their context. This is all extremely basic stuff of which you seem to be unaware - no wonder you're having so many problems. That's okay, you've made it clear you just want to play music and not get bogged down in technical details; I understand that desire. However, there are certain unavoidable dues you need to pay if you want to use a DAW. One is learning the standards of the platform itself, whether Mac or Windows. Don't blame Cakewalk for following them; blame yourself for not knowing them.
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John
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 19:32:33
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Grumbleweed_
As a side-effect of this thread I'm downloading Kontakt 5..... I hope you guys are happy you've caused me such expense
Grum
Actually you made a great decision. I believe Kontakt is without a doubt the best sampler around.
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Anderton
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/05 19:41:24
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John
Grumbleweed_
As a side-effect of this thread I'm downloading Kontakt 5..... I hope you guys are happy you've caused me such expense
Grum
Actually you made a great decision. I believe Kontakt is without a doubt the best sampler around.
I agree Kontakt is phenomenal, and there's a ton of great content available.
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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/06 04:38:28
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I wasn't too happy when the Kontakt installer download failed with about 1 gig to go (and wouldn't restart) but the second attempt worked. Thank heaven for unlimited Internet. Can't wait to have a play (but I have to as Sunday is housework day in the Grumbleweed mansion  ). Grum.
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pwalpwal
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/06 07:21:33
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Grumbleweed_
I wasn't too happy when the Kontakt installer download failed with about 1 gig to go (and wouldn't restart) but the second attempt worked. Thank heaven for unlimited Internet. Can't wait to have a play (but I have to as Sunday is housework day in the Grumbleweed mansion ).
Grum.
you may try running the installers while you tidy, there's quite a chunk of stuff to install! enjoy :-)
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williamcopper
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Re: Slow bounce, fast bounce ...
2015/12/07 17:00:52
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All in all, are we agreed that there are two bugs with rendering midi? 1) somehow the render engine stores up any tail for the selected area rendered, and plops it into the next render (unless other play actions happen between) and 2) the render uses the target track routing, even though the target track is NOT selected and is NOT part of the intended render, to affect the result of the render.
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