Helpful ReplySome Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions

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Toddskins
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2018/12/17 12:30:17 (permalink)

Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions

I'm going to use this thread for questions that arise over the next few weeks as I delve more deeply into AD2 and Cakewalk DAW, rather than constantly create new threads.  But I will keep the questions relevant to the title.
 
As I am reading the Keymap of AD2, XLN labels Note #60 as C3 rather than C4.  Not that it's a big deal because I know how to move around in MIDI, but it's counter to some of my other equipment and basic understanding over the ages using MIDI.
 
Can somebody expound on this issue with relevance to our DAW, and perhaps other manufacturers?  Why did XLN choose to make it C3?  What note number did Cakewalk's Session Drummer consider Middle C? Anything else you might wish to say, I'm all ears.
 
 
#1
abacab
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/17 16:10:35 (permalink)
Toddskins
I'm going to use this thread for questions that arise over the next few weeks as I delve more deeply into AD2 and Cakewalk DAW, rather than constantly create new threads.  But I will keep the questions relevant to the title.
 
As I am reading the Keymap of AD2, XLN labels Note #60 as C3 rather than C4.  Not that it's a big deal because I know how to move around in MIDI, but it's counter to some of my other equipment and basic understanding over the ages using MIDI.
 
Can somebody expound on this issue with relevance to our DAW, and perhaps other manufacturers?  Why did XLN choose to make it C3?  What note number did Cakewalk's Session Drummer consider Middle C? Anything else you might wish to say, I'm all ears.
 
 




The first thing I would do is grab the AD2 Drum Map file & track templates from here.  https://www.cakewalk.com/Support/Knowledge-Base/2007013364/Setting-up-a-Drum-Map-for-Addictive-Drums-2-in-SONAR
 
It will make setting up and using AD2 in Cakewalk much easier.  The piano roll view will show the kit piece names rather than the note names if you use the supplied AD2 Drum Map.

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
#2
brundlefly
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/17 17:00:17 (permalink)
+1 for using a Drum Map to avoid having to deal with octaves and note numbers.
 
There's no fixed standard for octave numbering. In the world of real pianos, middle C is C4, but MIDI controller manufacturers often label middle C (MIDI Note #60) as C3. CbB calls it C5 which avoids having to use negative octave numbers for the lowest notes in the MIDI scale. But you can change the 'Base Octave' setting in Preferences > Customization > Display to whichever standard you need at the moment.

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Cactus Music
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/17 17:16:48 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Steev 2018/12/18 13:17:42
The first thing I did was change AD to GM mode. Otherwise 200 of my projects would not work without major editing. I see the advantages of the other mapping for the hi hats etc,, but I would only use that on occation. If I need that much detail I'll use a real drum kit :) 
 
Best time spent with any software is to take the time opening ALL the tabs and menus. 

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#4
Toddskins
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/17 17:59:22 (permalink)
Cactus Music
The first thing I did was change AD to GM mode. Otherwise 200 of my projects would not work without major editing. I see the advantages of the other mapping for the hi hats etc,, but I would only use that on occation. If I need that much detail I'll use a real drum kit :) 
 
Best time spent with any software is to take the time opening ALL the tabs and menus. 

 

Changing to GM mode seems smart to me too, but just to make sure I'm on the same page as you, would "because I have little or no intention of creating drum tracks by playing my 88 controller, but rather by importing ideas from MIDI song collections I have accumulated over the years and then doing editing via the Piano Roll View", be a main reason?

Or let me ask it slightly in reverse - If I were going to create drum tracks by playing my 88 controller, does the AD2 mapping have a benefit over GM, and is that why maps exist to begin with?
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Toddskins
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/17 18:16:38 (permalink)
abacab
 
The first thing I would do is grab the AD2 Drum Map file & track templates from here.  https://www.cakewalk.com/Support/Knowledge-Base/2007013364/Setting-up-a-Drum-Map-for-Addictive-Drums-2-in-SONAR
 
It will make setting up and using AD2 in Cakewalk much easier.  The piano roll view will show the kit piece names rather than the note names if you use the supplied AD2 Drum Map.




Hey Abacab,
 
I'm not really sure what your suggestion does, but should I go ahead and do it even if I intend to convert to GM like Cactus Music suggested?  

EDIT:  Okay, I see that this allows me to see which drums are being played.  That does sound helpful.  Is there more to it than that?

EDIT 2:  I read more thoroughly the notes on that link.  Sounds cool.  This is to be used "contrary to converting to AD2 to GM mode", correct, or nay?






#6
Cactus Music
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/17 18:18:36 (permalink)
I mostly have my own midi tracks I made over the years and I always stuck with GM mapping because that was my first drum machine a Roland. I think Yamaha used different. 
And if you download files which I now do as well, they will all be GM drums and patches. 
If you OPEN any midi file it will load the TTS-1 and that uses GM map. 
 
The only advantage to using the oddball mapping is it gives you a lot of variety in things like the Hi Hat. Then there's a steep learning curve to learn how to play it from a controller so I've never bothered. I'm not into putting that much detail into my midi drum tracks. As I said I would rather pay a real drummer or attempt it myself on real drums first. It's like spending weeks programming a guitar part with a VST instrument??? Why bother if you can play the part or find a friend willing to help out. 

Johnny V  
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#7
Toddskins
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/17 18:24:45 (permalink)
Agreed, Cactus Music.  I have no intention of going down that road, either.  Way too difficult and tiring.
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Toddskins
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/17 18:33:48 (permalink)
Abacab, I followed those instructions and "Cool!"  And I was able to drag a Beat from AD2 into Track 15 and see it and hear it.
 
I've always been intimidated by MIDI drums, because I'm not a drummer and know that I don't have a clue as to how to program them accurately, but these tools, and what you just advised me to do, does make things seem more exciting.

I think now I have 2 methods to work with.  This one, and the GM one. 

I have a lot of exploring to do!  

Thanks guys.
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scook
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/17 19:27:30 (permalink)
When setting AD2 to use GM there are two ways to see the drum kit names in CbB:
  1. load a GM drum map (it is bundled with CbB) instead of the AD2 drum map provided in the KB article above or
  2. right-click the keyboard in the Note pane of the PRV and set note names to "General MIDI Drums" from the Note Names drop down.
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stratman70
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/17 20:27:07 (permalink)
OK I never really used AD2 because I just am used to EZ drummer 2 and StevenSlate Platinum 4.
Now almost exclusively EZ D2.
So I am experimenting with AD2 and I like some of the sounds I am hearing.
one thing escape my grasp:
1-how do I know what kits I actually have? The browser has quite a few.
simple I am sure
Thanks

 
 
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Cactus Music
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/17 21:12:48 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby stratman70 2018/12/18 03:38:37
In my AD 2 GUI the kits each show in boxes on the opening screen. 
I have only 3. Fairfax, Rock ?? and the Jazz Brush.
 
I don't really load kits I just build my own as all the pieces are available on the KIT tab and you can mix and match just like a real drummer would do. 
 
Make sure you log on to the XLN installer and grab any freebies. I didn't realize they were even there for over a year or more until someone here pointed it out. So I grabbed some percussion stuff. Also don't forget to grab Addictive Keys free version. 

Johnny V  
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#12
stickman393
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/17 23:37:31 (permalink)
Toddskins
As I am reading the Keymap of AD2, XLN labels Note #60 as C3 rather than C4.  Not that it's a big deal because I know how to move around in MIDI, but it's counter to some of my other equipment and basic understanding over the ages using MIDI.
 
Can somebody expound on this issue with relevance to our DAW, and perhaps other manufacturers?  Why did XLN choose to make it C3?  What note number did Cakewalk's Session Drummer consider Middle C? Anything else you might wish to say, I'm all ears.
 

 
As a user of Cakewalk and AD2, I'll suggest you check out these threads:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/What39s-the-deal-with-Sonar-and-octave-values-m2723583.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Why-is-Middle-C-quotC5quot-in-Sonar-m671372.aspx
 
and also this documentation:
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR%20X2&language=3&help=Dialogs2.073.html
 
 
#13
abacab
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/18 01:24:16 (permalink)
Toddskins
abacab
 
The first thing I would do is grab the AD2 Drum Map file & track templates from here.  https://www.cakewalk.com/Support/Knowledge-Base/2007013364/Setting-up-a-Drum-Map-for-Addictive-Drums-2-in-SONAR
 
It will make setting up and using AD2 in Cakewalk much easier.  The piano roll view will show the kit piece names rather than the note names if you use the supplied AD2 Drum Map.




Hey Abacab,
 
I'm not really sure what your suggestion does, but should I go ahead and do it even if I intend to convert to GM like Cactus Music suggested?  

EDIT:  Okay, I see that this allows me to see which drums are being played.  That does sound helpful.  Is there more to it than that?

EDIT 2:  I read more thoroughly the notes on that link.  Sounds cool.  This is to be used "contrary to converting to AD2 to GM mode", correct, or nay?




I would use the AD2 map when dragging MIDIpak patterns from AD2 into my project MIDI tracks.  That way the XLN pre-recorded MIDI patterns will match up with the AD2 kits correctly.
 
If using an imported GM drum MIDI clip, I would use the GM map mode in the AD2 plugin.
 
Cactus makes a good point that if you are using or creating your own patterns, keeping them GM compatible would keep things simpler.  In that case, the map options in the AD2 plugin make setting this mode simple in the plugin.
 
Then use scook's advice for setting the GM drum map in Cakewalk to see the kit names if you are going to do this.

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
#14
Steev
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/18 14:21:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Cactus Music 2018/12/18 23:17:26
I've been sequencing and playing MIDI drums since the mid 80's, and so the GM mapping is so familiar to me it's burned into who I am. It's also been used on 99% of the music projects I've created.
 That being said I have both AD 1 & 2 default to the GM map upon start up.
 
 However if I'm working on projects using AD MIDIPACKS  I will use the standard AD drum mapping simply because it's of course optimized for voicing correct drum kit pieces and that that delivers a much more accurate humanistic sounding performance using samples.
 There is no law stating you need to stick with one drum map, and there are many advantages of using both GM and AD Standard mapping for a much larger and richer performance and sound pallet.
And while the standard Fairfax will work reasonably well with GM map, you will lose a couple of not really essential kit pieces, but still really nice kit pieces.
 But if you use  Latin Percussion or Jazz Brushes kits you will most likely lose half your kit pieces and miss hits and beats using a GM map.
 Not exploring and getting familiarized with AD 2's standard drum map and why they did it that way, you will never be able to fully understand and appreciate how incredibly powerful and realistic AD both AD 1 & 2 really are.
 Psst, they are two very different VSTi drum sets with very different drum kits, ADPacks, features sounds, work flows, and applications.
 They can compliment each other very, VERY well for music project with 2 drum parts and perc sections.
 I have customized drum kits in SD 1 mixing up Sonar and Gretch drum sets, but never really bothered with customizing kits with SD 2 because it doesn't even support the SD 1 Sonar and Gretch drum sets I morphed together.
 But that's OK because SD 2 does other things and BOTH do what they do extremely well. Particularly well with the standard AD drum maps.
 
 AD drum maps are also more effective when using AD 2's super powerful "Transform" tools, which I'm actually starting to prefer using over piano roll editing because I can achieve the same results in a fraction of the time I would moving beats around, quantizing, and editing velocities and such.
 Just by using AD MIDIPACK patterns chosen by time signatures and kit pieces that are similar in structure to what I would otherwise have to play or step sequence.. I've learned how simple it is to simply dial in what I want more accurately and exacting then I could communicate what I would want with a real drummer.

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#15
Toddskins
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/18 22:44:30 (permalink)
Steev
I've been sequencing and playing MIDI drums since the mid 80's, and so the GM mapping is so familiar to me it's burned into who I am. It's also been used on 99% of the music projects I've created.
 That being said I have both AD 1 & 2 default to the GM map upon start up.
 
 However if I'm working on projects using AD MIDIPACKS  I will use the standard AD drum mapping simply because it's of course optimized for voicing correct drum kit pieces and that that delivers a much more accurate humanistic sounding performance using samples.
 There is no law stating you need to stick with one drum map, and there are many advantages of using both GM and AD Standard mapping for a much larger and richer performance and sound pallet.
And while the standard Fairfax will work reasonably well with GM map, you will lose a couple of not really essential kit pieces, but still really nice kit pieces.
 But if you use  Latin Percussion or Jazz Brushes kits you will most likely lose half your kit pieces and miss hits and beats using a GM map.
 Not exploring and getting familiarized with AD 2's standard drum map and why they did it that way, you will never be able to fully understand and appreciate how incredibly powerful and realistic AD both AD 1 & 2 really are.
 Psst, they are two very different VSTi drum sets with very different drum kits, ADPacks, features sounds, work flows, and applications.
 They can compliment each other very, VERY well for music project with 2 drum parts and perc sections.
 I have customized drum kits in SD 1 mixing up Sonar and Gretch drum sets, but never really bothered with customizing kits with SD 2 because it doesn't even support the SD 1 Sonar and Gretch drum sets I morphed together.
 But that's OK because SD 2 does other things and BOTH do what they do extremely well. Particularly well with the standard AD drum maps.
 
 AD drum maps are also more effective when using AD 2's super powerful "Transform" tools, which I'm actually starting to prefer using over piano roll editing because I can achieve the same results in a fraction of the time I would moving beats around, quantizing, and editing velocities and such.
 Just by using AD MIDIPACK patterns chosen by time signatures and kit pieces that are similar in structure to what I would otherwise have to play or step sequence.. I've learned how simple it is to simply dial in what I want more accurately and exacting then I could communicate what I would want with a real drummer.




Hey Steve,
 
You provide a lot of great information, too.  I have a couple of questions now partly due from what you just wrote:
 
1) The AD2 manual tells me to copy all my GM Midi song files into the folder  "Documents\Addictive Drums 2\External MIDI Files", but there's a bit of confusing info. on this point. 
 
When I go to that folder there is a TEXT file in it from XLN telling me "Place MIDI Files here.txt".... which I don't know what XLN is able to do for me by my doing this, but I gathered that I should copy my collection of MIDI song files (numbering about 400 files) into this folder.  What happens for me by doing this?
 
2) But wait, there seems to be a conflict. Because that TXT file has 2 sentences in it, and the 2nd sentence is where my confusion comes.  The 2nd sentence reads:
 
"... -- PowerMap feature -- If importing midi files with for example GM mapping that needs to be remapped, create a folder named GM and in that folder put your map file named GM.AD2Map. Then all midi files in that folder and subfolders will be remapped using GM.AD2Map. This works for any mapping, just follow the steps above but use your map of choice as name."

Steve, there is already a subfolder "GM" inside the "External MIDI Files" folder, and there is a file in the GM folder "GM.AD2MAP".

So now put all my 400 MIDI song files into the GM folder instead of the External MIDI Files folder?  

What's the difference between these 2 scenarios?




#16
Toddskins
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/18 22:56:08 (permalink)
abacab
 
I would use the AD2 map when dragging MIDIpak patterns from AD2 into my project MIDI tracks.  That way the XLN pre-recorded MIDI patterns will match up with the AD2 kits correctly.
 
If using an imported GM drum MIDI clip, I would use the GM map mode in the AD2 plugin.
 
Cactus makes a good point that if you are using or creating your own patterns, keeping them GM compatible would keep things simpler.  In that case, the map options in the AD2 plugin make setting this mode simple in the plugin.
 
Then use scook's advice for setting the GM drum map in Cakewalk to see the kit names if you are going to do this.



If I create the bulk of a drum track using AD2 and their MIDIPaks, can I insert a GM clip from some other MIDI song file I own into the AD2 drum track somewhere?

Thus, can I mix and match the 2 methods, so to speak?

Since the GM file would not be mapped the same way as the AD2 format, is there a way of bringing part of a GM drum track (say 2 or 3 measures long) and pasting it into the the AD2 track such that the GM clip will play properly the way it did in the exclusive GM format?
#17
Cactus Music
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/18 23:20:09 (permalink)
An option for that situation would be use 2 instances of AD2. One using GM the other using it's default mapping. 

Johnny V  
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#18
stratman70
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/19 02:10:01 (permalink)
OK. So i remembered that we had a "choice" of which packs to get when we originally got AD's.
I picked Fairfax 1, Session Percussion and Studio Rock. iirc we didn't have a zillon choices.
I like Cactus's idea of creating his own kits. Works out well.
 
This thread was very timely and productive for me...Thanks to all...........
 

 
 
#19
abacab
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Re: Some Cakewalk and AD2 MIDI questions 2018/12/19 02:44:42 (permalink)
Toddskins
 
If I create the bulk of a drum track using AD2 and their MIDIPaks, can I insert a GM clip from some other MIDI song file I own into the AD2 drum track somewhere?

Thus, can I mix and match the 2 methods, so to speak?

Since the GM file would not be mapped the same way as the AD2 format, is there a way of bringing part of a GM drum track (say 2 or 3 measures long) and pasting it into the the AD2 track such that the GM clip will play properly the way it did in the exclusive GM format?




I think Cactus just gave the correct answer, but I will elaborate on why you will need two instances of AD2 to do so.
 
In the AD2 Map Window, you can select the internal map that instance of AD2 will follow.  You need to pick just one internal map in each instance of AD2.
 
The internal AD2 map is separate from the map that you choose in Cakewalk for the instrument track.  They need to match up for the best results.

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
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