larry hardig jr
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Someone help please! [tuning discussion]
I recently came across some things about tuning your A=432hertz, instead of A=440hertz.
Can someone please direct me to a correct link in which I may learn how exactly to do this on my guitar,
as well as how to do this with music in Sonar X1.
Thank you very much in advance and I do appreciate any help from any particular individual. :)
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Karyn
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Re: Someone help please! [tuning discussion]
2014/12/08 18:51:30
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Most tuners can vary their root frequency, usually 440Hz for A (standard pitch)
re-tuning something like a guitar is easy, you just downtune it a bit. Retuning a virtual instrument in Sonar would depend on the capability programmed into the VSTi
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jb101
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/08 18:53:13
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I can offer a little advice on this.
Whatever you have read on the subject - it makes no difference.
You will have probably read a lot about different frequencies sounding better, etc., etc.
IT IS NOT TRUE.
Music (and the physics of sound) is concerned purely with ratios, and not integers. The rest is utter bunkum. Balderdash. Snake oil.
Please trust me. My thesis at music college was on tunings and temperaments. This has been floating around the internet for years. It makes no difference.
Tune to A=440. It is a standard that has nothing to do with the third reich.
For your own benefit - what have you read about it? I will be happy to discuss it with you.
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jb101
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/08 18:57:09
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Anderton
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/08 19:00:58
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larry hardig jr
I recently came across some things about tuning your A=432hertz, instead of A=440hertz.
Can someone please direct me to a correct link in which I may learn how exactly to do this on my guitar Most tuners allow changing the default pitch for A from the standard of A=440 Hz. For example, TASCAM's PT-7 can change tuning from 349-499 Hz. This is a very full-featured unit, but even inexpensive tuners like the Snark SN-3 let you change the tuning reference. Once you set the new reference, then you can tune normally as if the reference was A=440. If you have a Gibson guitar with Min-ETune or G FORCE, you can create a custom tuning. ...as well as how to do this with music in Sonar X1.
Cakewalk's instruments can adjust tuning in cents. If you set the master tuning to -32 cents, then A will be 432 Hz. FYI here's an article concerning studies regarding 432 compared to 440 Hz tunings...might not be worth the trouble. Report back and let us know. However, the timbre of instruments changes when tuned differently. Some metal guitar players like to tune guitar to E flat. Tuning to a higher pitch can give a brighter sound. Orchestras vary as to what they choose for their reference pitch. With classical Indian music, you tune something like a sitar to match the range of a vocalist rather than an arbitrary standard.
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toby
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/08 19:01:53
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jb101 has it right. May I also add that if you ever play with other musicians they'll tell you to ... 
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John
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/08 19:02:02
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jb101
I can offer a little advice on this.
Whatever you have read on the subject - it makes no difference.
You will have probably read a lot about different frequencies sounding better, etc., etc.
IT IS NOT TRUE.
Music (and the physics of sound) is concerned purely with ratios, and not integers. The rest is utter bunkum. Balderdash. Snake oil.
Please trust me. My thesis at music college was on tunings and temperaments. This has been floating around the internet for years. It makes no difference.
Tune to A=440. It is a standard that has nothing to do with the third reich.
For your own benefit - what have you read about it? I will be happy to discuss it with you.
Please listen to this. It is definitive and there is nothing to be gained by screwing with tunings. Besides try telling an old hand piano tuner to tune to a lower frequency! You may wind up in the piano permanently!
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mettelus
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/08 19:14:58
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An alternate method to detuning is to record as you would normally, and then pull the final mix into a program which does not maintain pitch correction when a wav file is slowed down. Slowing an entire song by 1.82% (or to 98.18% of its original length) will keep everything in tune with each other, but lower the pitch as you are seeking. This is a much simpler method than what you are proposing.
FWIW, the real issue lies in getting instruments to be in tune with each other, which is why there is a standard.
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jb101
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/08 19:20:51
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However, the timbre of instruments changes when tuned differently. Some metal guitar players like to tune guitar to E flat. Tuning to a higher pitch can give a brighter sound. Orchestras vary as to what they choose for their reference pitch. With classical Indian music, you tune something like a sitar to match the range of a vocalist rather than an arbitrary standard.
I agree wholeheartedly. Tuning to E Flat, or tuning your guitar to drop C will make a massive difference.
Tuning to A=432 instead of A=440 will not.
There was a video on youtube that demonstrated how much "better" an acoustic guitar sounded when tuned to A=432.
I concede that it may just be possible that a particular instrument or room may have a particularly "pleasant" sweet spot or resonance, but that will vary in each instance. A=432 will certainly not be the answer.
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Anderton
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/08 19:21:59
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John
Please listen to this. It is definitive and there is nothing to be gained by screwing with tunings.
Well...yes and no. Again, it's not because music becomes any more "special," but because of timbral differences that result from pitch changes. That's why I think the study I quote above is flawed, because it changed frequency by pitch-shifting, not re-recording the music at a different pitch center. No one likes the sound down of a downward pitch-shift, right? A lot of my opinions about tuning changed once I started working on the manual for G FORCE and had to test the various functions. For example I got into subtle tuning tweaks for individual strings, like basically doing the equivalent of a piano's "stretch" tuning on guitar ("sweetening"). But tuning down half steps and such does make a difference. It makes it easier to bend strings, too  Also, orchestras that tune to higher than 440 Hz do so because they believe the sound is sllghtly brighter. It's subtle, but apparently it's enough for conductors to be picky about it. Baroque ensembles often tuned way up, and orchestras had a period of "pitch inflation" during the 19th century where they kept tuning higher and higher to produce brighter timbres--I guess it was that period's equivalent of overcompressing . It got totally out of hand when La Scala decided A was 451 Hz. Higher tunings change the amplitude of the harmonics with strings. Maybe one reason why people think 432 makes a difference is because the tone is duller, so they find it more new agey. Or something.
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jb101
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/08 19:32:22
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John
jb101
Besides try telling an old hand piano tuner to tune to a lower frequency! You may wind up in the piano permanently!
Interestingly, piano tuners will often vary the tuning over a piano's range, e.g. stretch tuning
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Anderton
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/08 19:34:20
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jb101
Tuning to E Flat, or tuning your guitar to drop C will make a massive difference. Tuning to A=432 instead of A=440 will not.
Well as luck would have it, there's a guitar sitting next to me with G FORCE. Hold on a sec... Okay, I can store a temporary reference tuning that puts A at 434 Hz. It's possible to go lower, but that takes a little more effort. I went back and forth a few times between A = 434 and A = 440. I can't tell a whole lot of difference but it is measurable. I find it easier to hear a difference when tuning sharper.
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Anderton
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/08 20:13:48
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More Science Stuff! Being at Gibson sure is a helluva resource. Turns out the reason why G FORCE guitars are spec'ed to leave the factory with accuracy of at last +/- 3 cents is because virtually no one can discriminate pitch differences of under +/- 5 cents. So 432 is only 8 cents away from 440 Hz - probably something most people can't hear as a difference anyway. Here's an online pitch discrimination test where you can find out the extent of your ability to discriminate pitch. Check it out!
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Guitarhacker
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/09 11:11:34
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I use A-440 simply because it is a standard that is used by most folks these days. So when I send a track or receive a track from another studio, I know it will be in tune. I specify that anyone sending me something to work on be sure it was recorded A-440
I know that "back in the day" many bands did not use A-440. I specifically bought a JVC turntable with an adjustable speed drive so that I could retune the records by changing their RPM slightly rather than retuning my guitar with every album I put on it. When I asked the guy in the store for his variable speed turntables, the first words out of his mouth were... "you must be a guitarist"...... yup.
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Anderton
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/09 12:13:03
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Guitarhacker
I know that "back in the day" many bands did not use A-440. I specifically bought a JVC turntable with an adjustable speed drive so that I could retune the records by changing their RPM slightly rather than retuning my guitar with every album I put on it.
FWIW a lot of times the track would be cut at 440 Hz, but sped up or slowed down in the mixing or mastering process.
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bitflipper
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/09 12:53:55
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I'm more likely to tune down the older I get. It has nothing to do with metaphysics and everything to do with the reduced elasticity of my vocal cords. Yeah, the whole A-432 thing is nonsense. Not like placing rocks under your speakers, that's real.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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jb101
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/09 13:01:05
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bitflipper
I'm more likely to tune down the older I get. It has nothing to do with metaphysics and everything to do with the reduced elasticity of my vocal cords.
Yeah, the whole A-432 thing is nonsense. Not like placing rocks under your speakers, that's real.
That's the funniest thing I have seen in some time.. Thank you for posting. Would I need different "special physical properties of highly symmetrical crystal structures" if I tune to A=432, or will these ones do? What percentage will they make my mixes better? It is science, after all...
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mettelus
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/09 15:37:46
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Ouch... They are supposed to go under the speakers??? I have been eating them... No real science to them, but I can definitely FEEL the difference!
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Anderton
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/09 15:54:07
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bitflipper
Not like placing rocks under your speakers, that's real.
But that's only for rock music, right? BTW did anyone take the pitch discrimination test?
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jb101
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/09 16:04:03
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I took the test - very illuminating. I hope everyone has a go. Make sure you take the test at the end. This is the thread I meant to post earlier: http://forum.cakewalk.com/Tuning-A-to-432Hz-rather-than-the-default-440Hz-m2859951.aspx Ignoring the jibing between Chuck and myself (we are friends now) there are some interesting points. I particularly like brundlefly's comment at post [link=javascript:void(showMsgNum(2869544))]#106[/link]. There is also a link to the youtube video I mentioned above.
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jb101
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/09 16:24:16
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I would be interested to see/hear peoples honest results on the test. I could consistently recognise four cents, but started getting it wrong at three cents.
I may try again later when my ears have had a rest.
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jb101
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/09 16:34:15
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I am getting me one of these from the pebble site: NEW!! Particle Accelerator Ion Gun, a Tourmaline based ionizer for CDs and cables, etc. This is Machina Dynamica's updated version of the Xionic Tourmo Gun of some years ago from Xtreme AV. The Particle Accelerator employs Grade AAA tourmaline for generating negative ions.
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bapu
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/09 17:21:52
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bitflipper
Not like placing rocks under your speakers, that's real.
Cheaper than ARC + Treatment. DOH!
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bapu
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/09 17:23:28
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jb101
I am getting me one of these from the pebble site:
NEW!! Particle Accelerator Ion Gun, a Tourmaline based ionizer for CDs and cables, etc. This is Machina Dynamica's updated version of the Xionic Tourmo Gun of some years ago from Xtreme AV. The Particle Accelerator employs Grade AAA tourmaline for generating negative ions.
Looks like my hair dryer.
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Philip
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/09 22:19:28
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Pebble cations ('KAT'-iun) leach with this ... rock-vocals dry up, iows. Still 2 posts and waiting? Oh Op, where art thou?
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gswitz
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/09 22:23:54
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Anderton
BTW did anyone take the pitch discrimination test?
Yes. While it's hard to judge two pitches that follow each other within 5 cents, two pitches on top of each other it's not so hard. (Think synths).
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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tlw
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/09 23:11:35
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Anderton
Turns out the reason why G FORCE guitars are spec'ed to leave the factory with accuracy of at last +/- 3 cents is because virtually no one can discriminate pitch differences of under +/- 5 cents. You can if you play a chord containing notes of the same pitch, or separated by octaves, because of the beats. As demonstrated by accordions,synths and pianos. Having said that, 3 cents is quite good enough for most guitar purposes and you'll be lucky to find a guitar which intonates that accurately on all strings at all frets anyway. Certainly a Tele with a three-saddle bridge, an acoustic with a single saddle or a Gibson with the wrap-around bridge/tailpiece won't intonate "correctly", not even at the 12th fret. Doesn't necessarily stop them sounding good though.
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mettelus
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/09 23:33:01
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tlw
Having said that, 3 cents is quite good enough for most guitar purposes and you'll be lucky to find a guitar which intonates that accurately on all strings at all frets anyway. Certainly a Tele with a three-saddle bridge, an acoustic with a single saddle or a Gibson with the wrap-around bridge/tailpiece won't intonate "correctly", not even at the 12th fret. Doesn't necessarily stop them sounding good though.
+1... in fact, this comment came up with the "self-tuning" guitars that are on the streets. About half accepted the idea, and the other half said they do not expect perfect intonation on an entire fretboard, to some that sounds "fake."
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tlw
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/11 16:20:15
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I've a Korg tuner with claimed accuracy of 0.1 cents and Peterson's strobe tuner software which is possibly even more accurate.
In reality they both wander slightly as the string tension changes following even a gentle pluck. So even for 12th fret intonation setting it's down to taking an educated guess and ears in the end. People also seem to forget that stringed instruments required intonating for at least 3,000 years before anyone invented an electronic tuner, yet people coped.
Did Robert Johnson or Django Reinhardt sound like out of tune crap because modern tuners wouldn't be invented until decades after they died?
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Anderton
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Re: Someone help please!
2014/12/11 18:29:36
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tlw You can if you play a chord containing notes of the same pitch, or separated by octaves, because of the beats. As demonstrated by accordions,synths and pianos.Yes, but that's not really the point. You can tell there's a difference, but you probably will not be able to discriminate the pitch difference. Here's what I mean. - Insert a sawtooth wave in one track.
- Insert another sawtooth wave tuned to +3 cents in another track.
- Insert another sawtooth wave tuned to -3 cents in another track.
- Play the original sawtooth track. Close your eyes and have someone add in one of the other tracks. You will not be able to tell whether it is sharp or flat compared to the original track. If you can, then you have exceptional pitch discrimination abilities.
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