thebiglongy

bitflipper


I have not tested an export yet. If the tracks are frozen prior to the export, then yes, the export's going to be messed up as well. But whether the export does the same thing as the freeze, I have not determined that.

That doesn't fill me with a great deal of confidence, makes me wonder was I right in the past when I questioned the slight differences in volumes on certain things yet other members of my band was sure I was being over critical!

So, in this case, supposing that Exporting DOESN'T give you increases on certain tracks, would it be wise to unfreeze all before exporting? Would it be possible to test if it also does this on export?

Just built a new pc to get back into it all again...was gonna upgrade from 8 to 8.5 or wait till next version, seeing this has me thinking about redoing some of my mixes, which isn't a problem if the above is correct, however I am hoping one of the bakers can chip in on this thread and shine some light on the subject so I can get on with my purchase lol.

It bears reiterating that somewhere in the 8.x releases was a 'correction' to the pan laws that does and will affect some things.  There was discussion about it on this forum, and I think Noel B from CW made some comments -- and there are notes with the releases.  I don't remember which 8.x it was, but it fixed something that was broken with pan law.  Unfortunately it affected older projects.
 
So you may have, in fact, sensed some differences correctly.
 
 

I dug out my notes on that issue, too, thinking it might be related. But apparently it is not. At least not to the particular subject of this thread.

I'll dig into this a little more tomorrow, but at present I'm thinking that this is a fairly specific problem. Not specific to Superior Drummer, because I've observed it in other synths as well (including the TTS-1), but likely specific to these types of mono/half-stereo outputs.

IOW, I wouldn't panic that my exports were getting hosed. Not just yet, anyway. But if I used a lot of soft synths in my projects I'd definitely be taking a look at any frozen tracks.

Good news. This phenomenon does not occur with a regular bounce or export.

My latest test consists of an instance of the TTS-1 driven by a MIDI track consisting of four kick hits of successively higher velocity. I selected the standard drum kit for the synth, created an audio track and specified the TTS-1's "Output 1: left mono" as its input. On playback, this track indicated a peak amplitude of -7.8db.

Next, I froze the synth and played it back. The peak was now -4.8db, exactly 3db higher, and exhibiting exactly the same behavior I had observed with SD2.

Next, I bounced the TTS-1 to an audio track and played that back. It peaked at -7.8db as hoped. This tells me that the problem applies to freezing only, not regular bounces.

Finally, I exported the unfrozen, unbounced project to a 32-bit stereo file and imported that file back into the project. It played back at -7.8db. This would seem to indicate that exports are not affected by this bug, so we can all breathe easier.

Just to clarify, this only occurs when using mono output and  freezing the synth, not with a track that was originally stereo and frozen?

Also then, from what you are saying, the simple work around then would be to freeze the track, clone the frozen track and then delete the original track?

I pretty much work exclusively with soft synths for backing tracks.  I then export to my Ipod for playback.  I never look at meters, just go by my ears.  This could explain why when I export I often have to go back and adjust some tracks as the original mixdown I hear in Sonar is different then the playback after exporting.  I just thought it was because Itunes was doing something to it.  Thinking back, the only things I usually use mono on is the bass and the drums and those are usually the 2 things I have had to go back in and adjust.  You may just have saved me a bunch of time.  

Thanks bit.

bitflipper


More strangeness.

I drag-copied the frozen track (which peaks at -4.8db) into another track. Surprise: the copy peaks at -7.8db! Then I cloned the frozen track, and it too peaked at -7.8db.

So here I have three tracks: one original and two ostensibly "identical" copies. The original frozen track peaks 3db higher than either of the two copies.

Finally, I changed the track interleave on the frozen track to stereo (with the track still frozen) and - ta da! - it now peaks at -7.8db.

This suggests that the problem isn't in the freezing, but in the PLAYBACK of the frozen track.

This at least gives me a little nicer workaround: freeze the track normally but then set the track interleave to stereo to get the proper level on playback.

oh man, I don't think I would have ever thought to try that.  thanks for reporting that bit, very good info.

Just to clarify, this only occurs when using mono output and freezing the synth, not with a track that was originally stereo and frozen?

Correct.

Also then, from what you are saying, the simple work around then would be to freeze the track, clone the frozen track and then delete the original track?

That's one way. You can also set the track interleave to stereo after freezing.

I also use an MP3 player for critical listening. I find it helps my objectivity to listen away from the studio where I can't make any adjustments or see any waveforms. That's what started this whole chain of events: I had brought the kick drum up by just 1db, froze the drums and exported. Later, when listening to the song the kick seemed too loud. So I went back and lowered the kick by 1db, but this time I didn't freeze the synth before exporting. When I listened to the song afterward, the kick was too quiet! Wait a minute, I thought. The changes I'm hearing are clearly more than 1db in magnitude. That's when I started this investigation.

I just exported a mono track, to a mono file, and had that same 3db increase. Can you guys reproduce that?

I'll try that tonight, lapieuvre. This was a straight mono audio track, not a bounced soft synth?

More pictures. This shows three tracks: track 3 is the frozen TTS-1 (output 1 left), track 4 is the frozen track cloned, and track 5 is the frozen track bounced.

The waveforms themselves visibly appear to be the same amplitude. Of course, they should be - they're all the same track! But the original frozen track plays back 3db hotter.



Here's track 3 again, the only change is the interleave has been changed to stereo. It has not been re-frozen. It's the same exact file. But now the playback level is correct.



Normally, changing the track interleave on a mono track does not change its amplitude, and in fact does not change the amplitude on the frozen track's copies - only on the original frozen track.

Can you check in a wave editor the dB of the tracks other than Sonar Bit?

It would be interesting to see if say Sound Forge or Audition were to confirm the dB. 

[UPDATE: Well, that blows my theory about this being strictly a playback problem. When I open the actual clip in Audition, it shows the 3db increase is actually in the file. The problem therefore lies in the bounce process, not the playback.]

 
Ouch if true!
 
But how did you get the bounced file into Auditon ... export? tools menu?
 
 
 

Doesn't that sound like a pan law is affecting it somehow?

Kinda. Since I use the default 0db center pan law, that's effectively no adjustment. IOW, SONAR does not attempt to compensate for the natural 3db increase that happens when you pan from 100% to center. I actually prefer that and have become accustomed to it.

If I switch to the -3db center pan law, the problem goes away. That's because SONAR is now intentionally lowering mono tracks as they are panned toward center so that the volume remains constant regardless of where the track is panned. Unfortunately, changing pan laws isn't a good solution for a project that's already been mixed because you have to begin your mix from scratch.

So yes, pan laws do enter into it. However, a mono track panned to the center should not see any automatic adjustment with the 0db center law in place. Only when you fold a stereo track to mono would you see a 3db increase - and that is apparently what's happening. During the freeze, SONAR is treating the synth output as stereo when it is actually a mono output.

bitflipper

Doesn't that sound like a pan law is affecting it somehow?

Kinda. Since I use the default 0db center pan law, that's effectively no adjustment. IOW, SONAR does not attempt to compensate for the natural 3db increase that happens when you pan from 100% to center. I actually prefer that and have become accustomed to it.

If I switch to the -3db center pan law, the problem goes away. That's because SONAR is now intentionally lowering mono tracks as they are panned toward center so that the volume remains constant regardless of where the track is panned. Unfortunately, changing pan laws isn't a good solution for a project that's already been mixed because you have to begin your mix from scratch.

So yes, pan laws do enter into it. However, a mono track panned to the center should not see any automatic adjustment with the 0db center law in place. Only when you fold a stereo track to mono would you see a 3db increase - and that is apparently what's happening. During the freeze, SONAR is treating the synth output as stereo when it is actually a mono output.

Agreed.  Then I would consider it is a bug.

Hey Mr. Flipper,
 
I was able to duplicate your results with TTS-1 and Addictive Drums with Sonar PE versions 8.5.3 and 8.3.1 (32-bit and 64-bit).  I tried every variation of Freeze and Quick Freeze I could think of and the frozen synth track was always 3db higher with the interleave switch set to mono. I noticed something weird though that might provide another clue to the mystery. Everytime I tried a Quick Freeze Synth after a Quick Unfreeze Synth, the interleave switch on the track automatically got set to stereo. It resets back to mono after any unfreeze operation or normal freeze. It does look like a righteous bug in the freeze logic to me. Freezing a plain old mono audio track with no soft synths involved seems to work as expected.
 
Man, this should teach you not to stop a perfectly good procrastination!
 
Peace,
Don

There is a hidden stereo bus that everything goes thru... that's why there is a pan law in the first place... it seems like Bit has uncovered another circumstance similar to the problem fixed recently.

My guess is that this is the same problem sneaking thru the loophole of the "freeze" feature.

Since they fixed the first issue I'm hopeful they might be able to get this fixed too.

I'm with RBowser... I just don't get "freezing".... I bounce frequently and move forward.


best regards,
mike

I just haven't figured out how it saves me time over simply bouncing and keeping the MIDI around just in case.

There always seems to be some gotcha... as Bit has discovered.

Anyways, I only share my opinion to explain why I may have never seen this issue.

If others find it useful... viva la usefulness!!!!

best,
mike