Sonar 2.2 & Tascam FW-1884 sync problems?

Here is a link to a page I threw together that should help to explain what the issue really is for me at least.

http://www.arismlsswf.com/marco/sync.asp

Test for yourselves using the method like didger in his first post.

Again. Anyone know what Firewire chipset they're using successfully? It's very easy to identify if you don't know how: Goto 'Control Panel' - 'System' - '1394' The name of the installed 1394 firewire interface listed here will most definately be the name of the chipset, not the card manufacturer. For instance, my card is manufactured by Belkin but shows up as 'VIA OHCI Compliant Firewire'.
It will probably something like 'Texas Instruments', 'VIA', or 'Ogere'. Anyone

My system has a Texas Instruments OHCI compliant IEEE 1394.
Besides the occasional clicking sounds when I first use the 1884 all is well. I'm pretty happy with it.

Hey guys, what kind of space does the 1884 take up? I cant find it anywhere?

Hey guys, what kind of space does the 1884 take up? I cant find it anywhere?

22.9 wide by 18.9 deep and 5.4 inches high. It hangs over the front of my computer desk. Pretty good size.

22.9 wide by 18.9 deep and 5.4 inches high. It hangs over the front of my computer desk. Pretty good size.

eek!!!! I'm not sure if I'm ready to be divorced yet.
Marco, you know of any rack that might handle that size?

I just found some pdf files on the 1884. One was a applications guide. It shows several different setups that can be done with the 1884. Each one shows at least 2 speaker setups, from 2 to 5.1
But doesn't show a audio interface hooked to it. Does this mean the audio goes into the 1884 through the firewire, or how do you pipe the audio into it?
I know, its a newb question.

Trower, This is probably the link you found but I’ll post it anyway.
http://www.tascam.com/product_info.php?pid=269&nav=computer_recording

Basically, you connect instrument, mics, etc to the FW-1884 by means of:
8 channels of analog input, both balanced line in and XLR plus an insert on each.
8 channels of ADAT lightpipe
2 channels stereo S/PDIF inputs and outputs
The FW-1884 connects to your computer via firewire.

Hi Didger,

Yeah I am using XP and with MME it DOES work. Classic YMMV. Apparently TASCAM will have the fix up in the next few days.

Ok, so I don't know what happened but I can't make this thing mess up. Everything is working like a champ. I'm switching bit depth. I'm switching sample size. I'm switching sample rate, midi devices....etc. Cool, huh? I just recorded 8 tracks at 24/96 at once. Then recorded 4 tracks at 16/44 and two midi tracks over top. Perfect sync. I'm lovin' it. I don't expect this to last as I'm not even sure what I did to correct the problems I was having but I sure am close to being completely sold on this thing. Cheers.


Oh, Mockster. I was using that chipset and noticed a substantial increase in reliability when I switched to a VIA chipset. Weird. Is your Firewire onboard or do you use a PCI card? Not that it should really matter, just wondering.

ORIGINAL: marcoR
It hangs over the front of my computer desk. Pretty good size.

What! Oh, you were talking about the FW. I was about to feel inadequate.

It hangs over the front of my computer desk. Pretty good size.

My wife had one of those wierd smiles after reading this. :)

22.9 wide by 18.9 deep and 5.4 inches high. It hangs over the front of my computer desk. Pretty good size.


eek!!!! I'm not sure if I'm ready to be divorced yet.
Marco, you know of any rack that might handle that size?

Trying to hold back, but yes I know a few sets of racks that could handle that size.

It hangs over the front of my computer desk. Pretty good size.

My wife had one of those wierd smiles after reading this. :)

that or the "18.9 deep " part

So how about those crazy firewire cards...

I got yer firewire right here, Babeee!

For all I know the card switch may not have been the catalyst for the better performance. Especially since it seems to have fixed itself again with no help from me.

Macro, point me in a direction on those racks you know of.

Oh, Mockster. I was using that chipset and noticed a substantial increase in reliability when I switched to a VIA chipset. Weird. Is your Firewire onboard or do you use a PCI card? Not that it should really matter, just wondering.

I think it's onboard. I have two firewire ports in the back and one in the front of the computer. HP 9870, 1.3 Ghz 512 RAM.
I'm pretty happy with the way the 1884 is performing. I don't always hear clicks and when I do they don't last long. But I must admit, I wish I knew what was causing the clicks.

Oh, I think I know what you're talking about. Are the clicks intermittent and usually about 10 seconds apart? I get these sometimes even when I'm not running Sonar.

Yes, exactly. I too get them also when I'm not running Sonar.

I thought the clicks were related to the clock checking or adjusting the sample rate to the current project. I hear it when I change the sample rate or run the wave profiler.

And when I'm not in Sonar. hmmm

Me too. Clicks and pops in and out of Sonar, which can be allieved somewhat by messing with buffer settings (mine does best with 1884 buffers somewhat high), but never really go away. Sometimes the 1884 loses control over some parameters, including the control panel, after a particularly nasty spat of pops.

And all I can say is... COME ON TASCAM, POST THOSE FREAKIN' DRIVERS!!!

Okay, I'm calm again. I'm being so trusting that this thing will start working with new drivers that I ordered a Behringer Ultragain ADA8000 yesterday. That box is a good tip for anyone with an FW-1884 who thinks they may need additional inputs. It's just a 1 rack space unit with 8 channels of XLR and TRS in, and XLR out, with 24 bit ADAT in/out. Plug that right into the 1884's ADAT in, and you've got 16 channels, if your computer can handle it. Mic that drum kit all you want.

Randy

I don’t smoke but a joke among smokers is that when eating out, if you want the food to come, Light up a cigarette. The food comes right out…

So maybe if I post that those ******* driver will never be released…we’ll be waiting till next year…I’m taking the dang thing back!!!

A cosmic force will kick in and will them to post the drivers today…

Or maybe we need a hardware sacrifice…who’s ready to burn there FW?…any takers.
We can have a ceremony and didger can play his didgeridoo.

I can feel the magic already…post the drivers… post the drivers… post the drivers...
Everyone chant with me.

Did I mention I don’t smoke?

I think you're smoking _something_.

post the drivers....post the drivers....post the drivers.....

I'm having the same problem with recorded tracks not being in "sync". Have been working with Frontier Design, and indeed they confirmed the driver is done and in Tascam's hands to post.

I am using Sonar 3 Producer now, and switched the driver to ASIO, and the same problem exists. This one however, is caused by Sonar, and apparently a new update will be coming from Cakewalk that addresses the ASIO issue and additionally will have Sonar 3 utilize hyper-threading (cool)..

Just my 2 cents worth... (Notice that the cents symbol is no longer on computers?)

Randy

¢

Ok, So I'm putting it to the test. I just set up a band for tomorrow and I'm gonna use the FW. Wish me luck!

Hey digi, I see your from St Louis. Did you get your FW from a store in town??
If you did, which one was it?

Guitar Center over on St Charles Rock Rd. But it was the last one. They aren't even putting out display models because people keep walking in and asking for it. That's what I did. When I first went in I asked if we could open it to have a look and they actually said no. Just thought I'd let you know in case that was your plan. I'm sure they'll get one on display eventually but right now they can't keep 'em in stock and they don't want to lose a sale because the box was opened.

Thanks didi for the info. I noticed there's 2 6pin firewire ports on the FW.
Is that like a bypass port? I have a miniDV deck that will have to share the firewire cable unless it can use the other port on the FW. I hope.

Yes, you can connect your DVdeck. I wouldn't recommend trying to use them both at the same time though. Personally, I wouldn't daisy chain it with anything. Your computer only has 1 firewire jack?

No, the firewire card has 2 but I have a external HD into one of them. I dont plan to use them both at the same time. But it would make it easier to chain it off the FW (When I get one) I hope the FW wont have a problem with the firewire card. It's the card that came with Liquid Edition. Everything else works fine with it.

Hey Trower, or anybody else looking for an FW-1884, I got mine on ebay and can highly recommend the seller (the only guy selling them there at the moment). There a music store in Arizona selling them for a pretty darn cheap Buy It Now price, with free shipping via UPS. I got mine in 4 days, and feel good about the price and service.

I'm not connected with the seller in any way. Just a friendly referral for those who can't find one locally.

How much did you get it for?

I am wondering if it has to do with the pci card? I have a tascam tdm1000 mixer going to my pc with that same pci card. they are connected using a tdif cable and i am having the same sync problems.

How much did you get it for?

Are we supposed to talk about those sort of things on this forum? Well, look on ebay now. He's got 2 available at $1215 including 2-day FedEx shipping.

Thanks didger, I'll go check it out

I got mine online at Sweetwater for about the same price as the Ebay ones.

FullCompass.com has them for under $1,200. I won't say exactly because they DON'T publish their prices even in their catalogues. I will say that EVERYTHING I've bought from them (about $6,000) is the lowest I've found anywhere. The only frustrating thing about them is you HAVE to talk to your designated sales rep. whenever you call in.

Later,
King Conga

ORIGINAL: King Conga

FullCompass.com has them for under $1,200.

Never heard of 'em. So you've used them alot?

digipenguin, How did the session go with the band?

Picked up my 1884 from Guitar Center. Gotta wait till Christmas to play with it. Now to make room for it.
Thanks for the info digi

Hey guys.

I was having that same issue with the audio being slightly offset, and I was able to resolve that by using the "timing offset" option under the "advanced" tab in the audio options dialog. (Sonar 3) I started by simply matching that offset to my latency reading, and it lined up perfect.

I used the ping DXi to record to, and then just adjusted the offset to line up. took a few tries but it worked great.

I also have that Sontius EQ prob........I just chalked that one up to "need a new driver".

regards,
Chad

ORIGINAL: marcoR

digipenguin, How did the session go with the band?

They cancelled on me but it turned out to be a good thing. We set up a recurring session so there is going to be a steady income monthly from them. They are looking at the sessions as a long term project with the intent of releasing a CD from the sessions.

Like I said, I've bought 90% of my musical hdware from them amounting to around $6000. All of those pieces were priced lower than zzounds, musiciansfriend, sweetwater, etc.... The only problem, as I say, is you HAVE to talk to your assigned sales rep; even if they don't know jack. The other frustrating thing about that is alot of times their on the ph. just when you're ready to blow some big cash. On the other hand, you can e-mail them for a quote and their pretty prompt about those. They have a very extensive catalogue you can order that comes 1/4ly. That's what I read instead of Playboy! They also almost always have a pretty big "Clearance" section where you can get REALLY good deals. Check 'em out...you won't regret it.

Merry Christmas...I ACTUALLY believe in It and Him,
King Conga

How does everyone have their latency set on both the FW1884 and Sonar?
What drivers are you using? MME work better than WDM, which I think is strange

I'm using WDM. my latency slider is set at( hold on) 5.8 which is 17.4 after the 4 buffers in the playback qeue. That's on a project with 16 tracks and recorded at 24/96. I don't know what these other guys are on about with the MME drivers. I haven't had a problem with thge WDM drivers.

I'm in Hong Kong and I just got mine from Sweetwater. I plugged it in after the software install and everything seems to be going very well. I'm running a 2.8 gig p4 with 2 gigs ram. The firewire card is a TI-chipset version.

I do have another question though, while in Sonar, is it possible to have the mics et al plugged into the FW1884 with the trims set to where they were AND not have these signals go to the 1/2 LR monitor outputs? I have 1/2 plugged into my monitors and I usually record vocals or whatever and then process in sonar. Can I route the zero-latency signals somewhere else or turn them off while in computer mode? Thanks in advance!

You could just mute the inputs in monitor mode that you don't want to hear in computer mode. If you are doing this to use "Input Monitoring" from Sonar to process your signal, it does not matter what your faders, pans, mutes, solos are set to in "Mon Mix" mode on the FW-1884. The input gain is the only thing that will affect your signal to Sonar. This is one of my fav features of this unit, the flexibility between "Computer" mode and "Mon Mix".

However that is not my preferred method. My latency is 11.6 and to use effects on input I have adopted this technique. I setup my gain, listening volume, pan, etc in “Mon Mix” mode on FW-1884. Then enable input monitoring on the track in Sonar, of course this introduces a doubling effect due to the latency. So I set the output for that track to none. Then I use an Aux Send for effects. The aux send is routed to the mains. So in turn I get a mix of latency free monitoring from the FW-1884 and the effects from the aux send.
This is great for a snare that you want to hear some reverb on input or vocals, really anything.
When you’re done recording the track, just remember to select an output for the track because we set it to none for recording.

Marco-

The MME drivers didn't do **** for me. I'm still using WDM. I talked to a tech at Tascam and they said by next week the new drivers should be posted (They have not been tested yet and were sitting in a pile of mail on his desk).
I tried a spare firewire card that uses a TI chipset and it was the same as the Orange Link card, I haven't found a Via card to try yet. But based on the inconstant results from everyone I don't really think it’s the card.
At least you got yours going...For everyone else again the issue has nothing to do with latency, tracks do not record in sync period. Every thing else is just dandy…

Shortgamma, if I understand you correctly, you don't want to hear the vocals over the monitor while you are recording, right? If this is the case then the fix is actually done in the FW. On the FW-1884, 1. select 'MON MIX' mode. Then below that you'll see a section labeled, 'MONITOR'. It's in blue letters on a silver background strip. 2. Select 'COMPUTER' (F7,INT). This determines which inputs the FW-1884 sends to outputs 1 and 2. The FW-1884 will now replay tracks from Sonar(Computer) but will not monitor the inputs during recording.



Be sure to set the FW back to 'COMPUTER' mode. The changes you made in Mon Mix mode will remain unchanged.

Whats the maximum length I can have a firewire cable? Has anyone used a firewire hub? Do they work well?
This is all FW-1884 related, that's why I posted here.

Merry Christmas and thanks for the help guys! It's exactly what I want it to do.

New question: I'm running 128 latency on the FW and 2 buffers in Sonar on WDM. I can't even get the audio engine to keep running unless i have latency in Sonar set to 11.6ms. Is there a way to get better latency so I can do input monitoring? With my old motu 828 (which is leagues behind) I could get consistent 1.9ms latency in Sonar and everything is fine.

Any suggestions for changing the settings? Also the khz should be set as the same rate on Sonar and FW right? What about the bit depth and etc in the audio config menu in Sonar?

Thanks again!

I think you'll see 'input monitoring' is disabled when you install the 'Sonar plugin' for the FW. The FW will automatically change to whatever sample rate you have the Sonar set to. Increase your buffers to 4 and try sliding the latency slider back a little. I think you're pretty much hosed until the new drivers come out though. 11.6ms is too much latency?

For me, 11.6 ms of latency is too much because i used to do all of my vocal recording with effects on the Motu 828. anything more than 2.9ms makes it sort of hard to accurately monitor. I guess 11.6ms is not too horrible when playing soft-synths. But everybody wants lower latency right?

FYI...Has anyone visited this link before?

It has PDF files entitled
Sonar Surface Control Notes
HUI Emulation
Mackie emulation

http://www.tascam.com/downloads.php?pid=269


NO new drivers yet!!!

Let keep this post going
WHere are the drivers

Need DRIVERS NOW

post the drivers.....post the drivers.....post the drivers

They have posted the drivers... I repeat They have posted the drivers

I think we are fixed

I've still got some mucking around to do it seems.
2 problems:
1) The FW-1884 has lost contact with Sonar when I've changed any MIDI configuration stuff, so I have to close Sonar, turn off the 1884, and turn back on 1884, restart Sonar.
2) Now when I go back to the metronome recording test that started this thread, sure enough, the metronome lines up the same every time. No more drift! BUT... it's EARLY. So the first downbeat is sort of cutoff. I assume I can just set an offset or play with buffers for this though.

But so far, yes, a vast improvement. Just some quirks to work out, I think. I'll try it with my Behringer ADA8000 as the timing master and see if it makes a difference.