sergiobklyn
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Sonar X1 Notation
Hi,
I could not find any mention of notation improvement in Sonar X1. Does anybody know if there are any changes in the notation engine?
Thanks,
Sergio
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/01 13:04:11
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sergiobklyn
Hi,
I could not find any mention of notation improvement in Sonar X1. Does anybody know if there are any changes in the notation engine?
Thanks,
Sergio
Only minor things: The UI was redesigned. The Chord, Expression, Hairpin, Lyric, and Pedal tools now display shading to indicate appropriate draw locations for each. Some minor bug fixes in the context menus. We do realize Staff View is important to a good portion of SONAR users and we do still hope to enhance the Staff View more substantially in the future under the framework of the new Skylight interface.
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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sergiobklyn
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/01 14:12:52
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Thanks for the prompt reply.
Sergio
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cmusicmaker
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/01 15:10:42
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At least that is some level of progression. Thanks.
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pbognar
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/01 17:56:54
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still hope to enhance the Staff View more substantially in the future Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
sergiobklyn
Hi,
I could not find any mention of notation improvement in Sonar X1. Does anybody know if there are any changes in the notation engine?
Thanks,
Sergio
Only minor things:
The UI was redesigned.
The Chord, Expression, Hairpin, Lyric, and Pedal tools now display shading to indicate appropriate draw locations for each.
Some minor bug fixes in the context menus.
We do realize Staff View is important to a good portion of SONAR users and we do still hope to enhance the Staff View more substantially in the future under the framework of the new Skylight interface.
"Hope" to enhance staff view? Oh man, sounds like it isn't even in the pipeline 
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tfkeel
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/01 19:38:04
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we do still hope to enhance the Staff View more substantially in the future under the framework of the new Skylight interface
I'm one of the "old" guys around here who learned to orchestrate on a paper score. Does the new Skylight interface allow me to "dock" a few staff views? My "scoring pad" has far too many staves to be viewed in a single staff view, and I must constantly be changing my staff view to different groupings of instruments in order to complete my work. This would be worth the 99 bucks to me ALONE. It will save me HOURS and HOURS and HOURS. I have learned to live with the idiosyncrasies of the staff view, it is essentially unchanged since Pro Audio 9, which I think is about 10 years now. I do my scoring in Sonar then export to Finale for the human players and singers. One REALLY NICE FEATURE would be the ability to introduce a new clef in the middle of the piece, or an 8va, 8vb, loco marker set. I already drive some people crazy by using tenor C-clef for my French horns. It lets me write them in concert pitches, never could think transposed. Drives me bananas. I quit playing the saxophone after a week in the 5th grade and switched to the tuba. Couldn't think transposed then, either. Been the same for 49 years. Had bad chops then, have bad ones now. My timing is atrocious. I know what to do, and what it should sound like, but doing it with my hands escapes me. Sonar is very bad at leger lines, and so am I 
post edited by tfkeel - 2010/11/01 20:07:02
Sonar 8.5 Producer Version 8.5.3.282 - Windows XP Home Edition w/all upgrades through SP3 - Windows Vista business SP2 - PreSonus FireBox interface - M-Audio UNO - Behringer UCA202 U-control - ADK ProAudio quad-core 3.2 Ghz overclocked, 8 Gb ram - been with Cakewalk since 3.0 in 1990 ( it was MIDI only...under MS/DOS - computer was 4 MHz :) ) http://www.keelsmusic.com
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/01 19:39:46
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pbognar
still hope to enhance the Staff View more substantially in the future
Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
sergiobklyn
Hi,
I could not find any mention of notation improvement in Sonar X1. Does anybody know if there are any changes in the notation engine?
Thanks,
Sergio
Only minor things:
The UI was redesigned.
The Chord, Expression, Hairpin, Lyric, and Pedal tools now display shading to indicate appropriate draw locations for each.
Some minor bug fixes in the context menus.
We do realize Staff View is important to a good portion of SONAR users and we do still hope to enhance the Staff View more substantially in the future under the framework of the new Skylight interface.
"Hope" to enhance staff view? Oh man, sounds like it isn't even in the pipeline
The only things in the 'pipeline" currently are bug fixes.
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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vintagevibe
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/01 23:36:36
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"Hope" to enhance staff view? Oh man, sounds like it isn't even in the pipeline
I've finally realized "we hope to" means that Sonar will never have notation on par with it's competitors. We've been hearing it's "in the pipeline" for many many years. They will always sell more to the ever growing "loopy-paint-by-numbers crowd". I wish Cakewalk had admitted this years ago so we could look elsewhere instead of waiting for development that will never be scheduled.
post edited by vintagevibe - 2010/11/01 23:43:20
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tfkeel
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/02 18:46:22
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They will always sell more to the ever growing "loopy-paint-by-numbers crowd".
Yep. Although, this "docking" ability intrigues me. If I am interpreting this right, I can set up my groupings of instruments in staff views and "dock" them and recall that exact grouping, work in it, and put it away without destroying the grouping. I currently spend lots of time setting up instrument groupings for my one staff view which
keeps re-opening in the new grouping. Otherwise, I wind up with a very cluttered pair of monitors which is hard to work in and the minimized tab of the windows is impossible to discern from any other minimized window. So keeping them open and minimized is not a good solution, either.
I have entertained the thought of trying another DAW because the notation abilities are better in it. Sonar hasn't changed notation code since more than 10 years ago in Pro Audio. But I'm afraid of the "learning curve" - from how long it took me to learn Cakewalk.
post edited by tfkeel - 2010/11/02 18:50:51
Sonar 8.5 Producer Version 8.5.3.282 - Windows XP Home Edition w/all upgrades through SP3 - Windows Vista business SP2 - PreSonus FireBox interface - M-Audio UNO - Behringer UCA202 U-control - ADK ProAudio quad-core 3.2 Ghz overclocked, 8 Gb ram - been with Cakewalk since 3.0 in 1990 ( it was MIDI only...under MS/DOS - computer was 4 MHz :) ) http://www.keelsmusic.com
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radioactiveblue
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/02 19:30:21
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I probably will be sorry I'm getting involved in this discussion but....you really have to look pretty hard in any of the ads for the Sonar line talking about staff view yet alone calling it in any way a product that does notation.....
Sonar X3E Producer (64 bit) Windows 7 Home Premium (64 bit) AMD Phenom II X4 820 8 GB DDR3 (PC3-10600 MB/sec) M-Audio Fast Track Pro 1 TB WD Caviar Green internal HD (OS and software) 500 GB WD Caviar Black internal HD (Audio Projects) 500 WD external HD (for file back up only) Kurzweil PC1 SE Sibelius 7.5 (Various guitars and effects, including Roland GR55)
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pbognar
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/03 10:26:20
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boblette
I probably will be sorry I'm getting involved in this discussion but....you really have to look pretty hard in any of the ads for the Sonar line talking about staff view yet alone calling it in any way a product that does notation.....
Why would Cakewalk call attention to something which hasn't been updated in years? Also, in its current form, it is not sexy enough to draw attention to. (Don't get me wrong, I am happy they at least have a staff view / editor, otherwise I would never have bought the product.) Contrast that with marketing for Logic and Pro Tools, even Garage Band - they yell and scream about how the MIDI notes instantly appear on the staff as they are played in. If Sonar staff view EVER gets a make-over, you can bet it will be in your face.
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Sepheritoh
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/03 10:50:38
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This is the question on my mind as well. Cake has been saying it is on the cards for many years. Last year they at least offered some workaround by offering the Notion pack. I am now composing mostly in Notion and then record live instruments in Sonar. This is just a workaround and not the sollution. All the "real" competitors offer almost all the functionality of Noton INSIDE the DAW (admittedly usually at more cost), not as an re-wire option. Rewire only works in 32 bit any way and generally sucks as workaround. Each year I get a little bit more disapointed in Cakewalk's obvious lack of interest in doing anything about the notation view. Great software and I still love Sonar, but how long can one man hold his breath?
post edited by Sepheritoh - 2010/11/03 10:54:26
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vintagevibe
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/03 11:43:10
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Sepheritoh
This is the question on my mind as well. Cake has been saying it is on the cards for many years. Last year they at least offered some workaround by offering the Notion pack. I am now composing mostly in Notion and then record live instruments in Sonar. This is just a workaround and not the sollution. All the "real" competitors offer almost all the functionality of Noton INSIDE the DAW (admittedly usually at more cost), not as an re-wire option. Rewire only works in 32 bit any way and generally sucks as workaround. Each year I get a little bit more disapointed in Cakewalk's obvious lack of interest in doing anything about the notation view. Great software and I still love Sonar, but how long can one man hold his breath?
Precisely my point. Rewire is flawed, cumbersome, time sucking workaround. Cakewalk seems to have decided that scoring is not important. Why do Protools, Logic, Cubase and Performer think they are important?
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pbognar
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/03 14:54:25
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vintagevibe
Sepheritoh
This is the question on my mind as well. Cake has been saying it is on the cards for many years. Last year they at least offered some workaround by offering the Notion pack. I am now composing mostly in Notion and then record live instruments in Sonar. This is just a workaround and not the sollution. All the "real" competitors offer almost all the functionality of Noton INSIDE the DAW (admittedly usually at more cost), not as an re-wire option. Rewire only works in 32 bit any way and generally sucks as workaround. Each year I get a little bit more disapointed in Cakewalk's obvious lack of interest in doing anything about the notation view. Great software and I still love Sonar, but how long can one man hold his breath?
Precisely my point. Rewire is flawed, cumbersome, time sucking workaround. Cakewalk seems to have decided that scoring is not important. Why do Protools, Logic, Cubase and Performer think they are important?
Agreed. I don't want to rain on the X1 parade - it looks like there have been great improvements made with regard to workflow - and the software isn't even out yet. But when it appears that even fixing problems in the staff view, let alone redesigning it are not a priority, combined with having to buy a newer computer to run X1, I'm going to have to carefully weigh my options. I only use staff view for data editing and creation - no printing for me, but the current limitations with tied tuplets and embedded rests is irritating. So I have to look at the cost of hardware and the software upgrade, along with the current staff view limitations and weigh them against what X1 actually offers in the way of usability, stability and enabling the creative process. And then I'll have to make a decision. I'm not getting any younger.
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vintagevibe
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/03 16:02:00
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Same here. I print and set up scores in Sibelius. I want to be able to compose in Sonar.
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some1namedjeff
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/03 21:09:51
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 I think my biggest beef with the notation view is not that this looks like a mess, but that I want to be able to write music in this DAW using something resembling notes on staves, not blocks on a graph. It makes much more aesthetic sense as a symphonic violinist who has studied scores to be able to use a form of notation that has been established and taught for hundreds of years. It doesn't have to be printable. I just want to be able to write a piccolo line and know where the range is automatically, without having to try and decipher on a graph where the lowest note lies. You could incorporate aspects of the piano roll, such as layering of instruments on a single grand staff. Incorporate a way to vertically move rests. Add a key-switch to easily change enharmonic equivalents. Do something... :(
post edited by some1namedjeff - 2010/11/03 21:24:24
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vintagevibe
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Shinyhead
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/03 21:41:11
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+1 to all the above posts on abysmal Notation feature of Sonar!!!!
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE...... It's sooooo overdue! As someone mentioned, it's been well over 10 years without any kind of serious attention to this feature.
And ditto with how subpar this feature is compared to competitors! Are you paying attention Cake? Do you know how advanced Notation is in ALL the major competitors?
Also very tired to see how you are catering to the "loopy-paint-by-numbers crowd". Anyone still wondering why Sonar is not taken seriously in the music industry?? Try imagining if Photoshop color systems replaced by a poor kiddie like "paint-by-numbers"? Of course, no professionals would take PS seriously!!!
Cake, MANY of us are trained musicians and maybe you need to be reminded that NOTATION is the language of music!
I have bought many upgrades of Cakewalk/Pro Audio/Sonar (still have the floppy disk of v1.0 of 20 years ago!). But I have refused and will refuse to upgrade until Notation is at least brought up to par with your competitors.
It's time!!!
A reply from anyone at CAKE would be appreciated...
PS otherwise, very sweet work on X1...............
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Shinyhead
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/03 21:41:11
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+1 to all the above posts on abysmal Notation feature of Sonar!!!!
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE...... It's sooooo overdue! As someone mentioned, it's been well over 10 years without any kind of serious attention to this feature.
And ditto with how subpar this feature is compared to competitors! Are you paying attention Cake? Do you know how advanced Notation is in ALL the major competitors?
Also very tired to see how you are catering to the "loopy-paint-by-numbers crowd". Anyone still wondering why Sonar is not taken seriously in the music industry?? Try imagining if Photoshop color systems replaced by a poor kiddie like "paint-by-numbers"? Of course, no professionals would take PS seriously!!!
Cake, MANY of us are trained musicians and maybe you need to be reminded that NOTATION is the language of music!
I have bought many upgrades of Cakewalk/Pro Audio/Sonar (still have the floppy disk of v1.0 of 20 years ago!). But I have refused and will refuse to upgrade until Notation is at least brought up to par with your competitors.
It's time!!!
A reply from anyone at CAKE would be appreciated...
PS otherwise, very sweet work on X1...............
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paulc
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/03 21:51:35
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As much as I like using Cakewalk/Sonar and am familiar with it (user since Pro Audio 9), this IS a subject which has been ignored. People on the forums have been asking for improvements to the Staff View and told change is just around the corner for AGES. I spend a lot of time in the Staff View - it looks ugly and (after spending a little time with Sibelius 6) it's also painful to use! I'm due for a DAW upgrade and I'll definitely be having a look at the notation features in Cubase 5.x before I upgrade to Sonar X1.
post edited by paulc - 2010/11/03 21:58:36
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djwayne
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/03 22:23:01
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tfkeel
we do still hope to enhance the Staff View more substantially in the future under the framework of the new Skylight interface
I'm one of the "old" guys around here who learned to orchestrate on a paper score. Does the new Skylight interface allow me to "dock" a few staff views? My "scoring pad" has far too many staves to be viewed in a single staff view, and I must constantly be changing my staff view to different groupings of instruments in order to complete my work. This would be worth the 99 bucks to me ALONE. It will save me HOURS and HOURS and HOURS.
I have learned to live with the idiosyncrasies of the staff view, it is essentially unchanged since Pro Audio 9, which I think is about 10 years now. I do my scoring in Sonar then export to Finale for the human players and singers.
One REALLY NICE FEATURE would be the ability to introduce a new clef in the middle of the piece, or an 8va, 8vb, loco marker set. I already drive some people crazy by using tenor C-clef for my French horns. It lets me write them in concert pitches, never could think transposed. Drives me bananas. I quit playing the saxophone after a week in the 5th grade and switched to the tuba. Couldn't think transposed then, either. Been the same for 49 years. Had bad chops then, have bad ones now. My timing is atrocious. I know what to do, and what it should sound like, but doing it with my hands escapes me.
Sonar is very bad at leger lines, and so am I
Thank you for this post, you seem to have hit on the answer. Export midi files to Finale, and get your scores there. Sure it's extra money, but you get a nice professional scoring program that'll do the job at a reasonable cost. Problem solved.
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vintagevibe
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/03 22:28:05
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Thank you for this post, you seem to have hit on the answer. Export midi files to Finale, and get your scores there. Sure it's extra money, but you get a nice professional scoring program that'll do the job at a reasonable cost.
Problem solved.
No problem not solved. I have Sibelius and Notion there are 2 problems with this scenario: 1) What I need is the ability to compose with usable notation INSIDE A DAW. 2) Without an export to Music XML function this process is a huge time sucking nightmare.
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synthphonix
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/03 22:41:01
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I'm a late comer to Sonar and I initially thought I wouldn't really care about / need serious notation. Well, I am finding that everything I do for a client now absolutely requires the accompanying printed and/or digital scores. Can't really do much with Sonar's staff view. It really is a big disappointment to learn that nothing has changed in this department for a decade.
The new workflow features look interesting, and the videos of the new interface look nice, but it seems composers have been really overlooked for a while. I don't really see a compelling reason to upgrade. Not really sure where to go for Windows software from here ... man, I hate installing trials.
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paulc
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/04 03:53:43
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"No problem not solved. I have Sibelius and Notion there are 2 problems with this scenario:
1) What I need is the ability to compose with usable notation INSIDE A DAW.
2) Without an export to Music XML function this process is a huge time sucking nightmare."
As vintagevibe says, the problem is not the quality of the notation produced by the Staff View after composing is completed. We know that we need to use Finale/Sibelius etc.. to produce scores coz professional players would laugh or throw things at us if we gave them a printout from the current Staff View  . We use the Staff View during the creation process and there are things it can't display properly which make it hard for those who write notation to easily see what they have programmed in a track VS. what it says is there in notational terms on-screen. Perhaps we should come up with a MOST WANTED features list for the Staff View? (So Cakewalk can have fun burning it on New Year's Eve!)
post edited by paulc - 2010/11/04 03:59:53
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vmw
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/04 04:12:21
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What I don't get is cake will (presumably) pay 3rd parties to write or adapt plugins to include as "bling" selling points. So why don't they contract out the staff view notation programming, not to fix the current staff view; but scrap it and start from scratch.
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vintagevibe
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/04 12:09:46
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paulc
"No problem not solved. I have Sibelius and Notion there are 2 problems with this scenario:
1) What I need is the ability to compose with usable notation INSIDE A DAW.
2) Without an export to Music XML function this process is a huge time sucking nightmare."
As vintagevibe says, the problem is not the quality of the notation produced by the Staff View after composing is completed. We know that we need to use Finale/Sibelius etc.. to produce scores coz professional players would laugh or throw things at us if we gave them a printout from the current Staff View .
We use the Staff View during the creation process and there are things it can't display properly which make it hard for those who write notation to easily see what they have programmed in a track VS. what it says is there in notational terms on-screen.
Perhaps we should come up with a MOST WANTED features list for the Staff View? (So Cakewalk can have fun burning it on New Year's Eve!)
Yes DURING THE CREATION PROCESS! That what some people don't get. I would still use Sibelius for printing and formatting scores. Also, several years ago Cakewalk sent out a survey asking about all the things we wanted for the staff view. So... we've been holding out hope. It appears our hope is wasted. It it is doubtful that they will ever develop the staff view. It's really sad. I've been loyal to Cakewalk since the EARLY 90's!!! As said above they spend their time on bling and then lower the price. The market they want is clear.
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Monkey23
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/04 12:22:48
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vintagevibe
As said above they spend their time on bling and then lower the price. The market they want is clear.
Yes, they've made it quite clear, which is a good thing because now it's clear to me that SONAR has absolutely no interest in implementing better notation and/or scoring to video functions (and at this point, saying that it's "in the works" is like saying "the check is in the mail"). Anyway, this now leaves me "clear" to start looking elsewhere. If everybody else were to do the same, maybe they would finally wake up, or be relieved to finally get rid of us annoying "we want actual professional features" pests (which is probably more likely).
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Rain
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/04 13:01:56
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At this point, it almost feels like if they could get rid of notation altogether and scrap it from the package once and for all they'd do. And maybe they should cos in it's current state, it just infuriates people who need it, and it doesn't look like it'll get better any time soon.
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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noldar12
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/04 14:55:35
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To add my $.02... Very, very frustrating. First, it gets really old to keep reiterating that the issue is NOT one of wanting quality printed scores, but wishing for the ability to create within ONE program, rather than needing, beyond a certain point, to end up working concurrently in two different programs. Second, as for the Notion bundle: IMO, Notion's display quality is not even remotely close to either Finale or Sibelius. Third, as for triplet issues, that is just the start... what about groupings like 5 into 4 or 7 into 4? Another concern: due to some uncommon circumstances (won't discuss the "what" here), a critical factor in favor of Sonar for me was the ability to control almost all aspects of screen color. Now, in X1 we can only control "some aspects" of screen color. Hopefully clarification will follow. In the end, it is very possible that CW's market focus really does lie 100% elsewhere, and I should no longer have hope that Sonar/X1...X3.14159 (hoping for future version notation "pie" [cake?] in the sky <smile>) will ever meet some of the basic core requirements of at least some aspects of music content creation.
post edited by noldar12 - 2010/11/04 14:57:44
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djwayne
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Re:Sonar X1 Notation
2010/11/04 15:15:14
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I think it should be optional. I rarely have any use for written music, heck I don't even have a printer connected to my computer. (Any printing I want done, i just e-mail it to myself then go to the library and use the printer there to do my printing jobs. This saves me a fortune on printers and ink !!) But it would be nice to see my music scored out occassionally.
If the need arises, I'll buy a copy of Finale.
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