trimph1
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 10:15:10
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One could argue that SV is about as useful as an appendix is for our digestive system..it is still there. 
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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djwayne
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 10:25:09
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Don't get me wrong, I like having a staff view and the basic notation that's already in Sonar. I don't need a full fledged notation program. Being able to print out a basic score with lyrics is all I need and Sonar already has that.
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Jimbo 88
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 10:34:52
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Noel:
I see Staff View as a marketing issue. Perhaps the vast majorty get by without it , it might not be the top $$ feature in the short run, but it is a way to attract most "Pros". Having the top orchestrators, film guys etc using your product will generate a longer life span and product recognition.
Technology is going to morph a million ways faster and faster, but notation is here forever.
It reminds me of the Hammond B3. Hammond marketing focused on the consumer organ player and went bankrupt. Today the B3 and it's sound is alive, well and profitable because of the "Jobbers"...the professional guys actually playing, touring and recording.
So next time you are weighing feature requests and priorities, you might want to consider the long term implications associated with STAFF VIEW.
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Jimbo 88
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 10:39:27
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I've said this before...
Composing/Orchestration/Scoring music without being able to see the whole notational score is like trying to play chess and not see the whole playing board.
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yorolpal
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 10:43:24
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John T
In any DAW? Quite a few DAWs have no staff view. Studio One doesn't, Ableton doesn't. I'm sure there are more.
Right you are JT, ol pal. And I wouldn't be surprised to see that trend grow apace. The way we do most everything is evolving. Old paradigms get left behind. What else is new? And Konrad, ol pal, perhaps you've heard that the printed encyclopedia is soon to be a thing of the past...you might want to look for a different metaphor;-) Whether the SV in Sonar should be improved, left alone or even removed from Sonar I could not say as I "don't have a dog in that hunt". I don't use it. But I know many here do and have very strong opinions about it. But I will say this; IMHO if the tool you have doesn't work for you...you need another tool. It should be obvious from Noel's response that the SV IS NOT a priority. Let that guide your thinking and your purchasing.
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musicroom
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 10:52:36
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But I will say this; IMHO if the tool you have doesn't work for you...you need another tool. That makes the most sense. It would nice if X1 were all things to all people. But that seldom happens with any product. I want the folks at cake to focus on what I want. Doesn't that kind of sum of this topic? My feature requests are in...
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djwayne
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 11:00:24
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Let me guess, you want a full featured notation program inside of Sonar and don't want to pay extra for it ???
So who's going to pay for the developement of the software you desire ??
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JClosed
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 11:49:28
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Well djwayne...
I said this before and I will say it again...
I think that ,if some people want a extended notation in Sonar, it would be a good idea to develop it. However - just like you said - it should come absolutely with a price. I think it could well be a add-on, just like "pro-channel extended". And the price would be in the region of $ 200,- (or more), just to cover the cost of extra personal and development time. Because - let's face it - It would cost a substantial amount of money to develop a more extended notation AND integrate it Sonar in a way it would not interfere with the rest of the program.
Anyway - In that case the people that do not need the extended features can keep paying the price Sonar is now. It is not reasonable to increase the price of a standard Sonar by a huge amount just to serve a relatively small part of the user base, while the rest does not need the extra functionality (and is paying extra for things they do no use).
However -and I said that also again before- the functionality that is offered at this moment should be as much error free as possible.
Oh - and yes.. before someone asks .. I can read and write music. I have written songs and used a lot ornamentation and phrasing in those. However - I rather use an inexpensive and external program (like Harmony Assistant), to write that kind of (mostly classical) music. I use Sonar mainly for recording and MIDI and notation is not that important for me. I surely would not like to pay a $ 200 extra for sonar just for some extra notation possibility's.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 11:56:50
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Let's not lose sight of the fact that, for all it's quirks & foibles - Sonar DOES have the Staff View.
It's great for sketching things out and getting an idea of what you're composing, but it wasn't designed as a fully fledged notation programme so why heap expectation on either it's current capabilities or it's future development?
As has been said many times already - if that's what you want then Sonar isn't the tool for you.
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djwayne
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 12:18:10
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An extra $200 ?? What if only a handfull of people bought it and Cakewalk's developement costs were in the thousands....it wouldn't be worthwhile for Cakewalk to do it now would it...That could easily be in the thousands...pay a couple of software engineers for a year or so to develope it....mucho bucks !!
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JClosed
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 12:28:12
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djwayne
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 13:02:13
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Well then you can put a couple of hundred thousand dollars to develope it. And maybe you'll sell a couple copies.
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musicroom
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 13:03:33
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djwayne
Let me guess, you want a full featured notation program inside of Sonar and don't want to pay extra for it ???
So who's going to pay for the developement of the software you desire ??
Nope. I want a few other things from Sonar like improved comping, audiosnap and v-vocal. They want to really make me happy they can add mixing snapshots, region colors and a routing window. Hopefully the developers at cake have enough time for everybody. If not, then what I requested will be fine. :)
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vintagevibe
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 13:46:52
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Let me guess, you want a full featured notation program inside of Sonar and don't want to pay extra for it ??? djwayne
Let me guess, you want a full featured notation program inside of Sonar and don't want to pay extra for it ???
Nobody wants that. You're not listening.
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LpMike75
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 13:55:50
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Jimbo 88
I've said this before...
Composing/Orchestration/Scoring music without being able to see the whole notational score is like trying to play chess and not see the whole playing board.
My opinion as well
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vintagevibe
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 14:01:45
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LpMike75
Jimbo 88
I've said this before...
Composing/Orchestration/Scoring music without being able to see the whole notational score is like trying to play chess and not see the whole playing board.
My opinion as well
It is a vital part of composing with MIDI.
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yorolpal
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 14:24:45
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LpMike75
Jimbo 88
I've said this before...
Composing/Orchestration/Scoring music without being able to see the whole notational score is like trying to play chess and not see the whole playing board.
My opinion as well
Well, there's an awful lot of ol fellers and gals that are makin a pretty good livin doin it these days who don't even use "notational scores" at all. Not that there aren't some who do. But if you've learned a different way to do it and it works for you then it's irrelevant to you. As it is to me. I'm capable of seeing just about as many tracks simultaneously as I ever need in the PRV. Plus...I've got ears. I learned to read music at an early age and can still find my way through a chart if needed...but it never is for what I do. I highly respect both those who are fluent music readers and those who compose in the "traditional" way. But that's all it is...tradition...it is not the "only" way. So again I'll say...if Sonar don't float yer boat in this area...find something that will. That there wall is harder than yor head and will always win.
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John T
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 14:29:23
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I do wonder about that analogy anyway. For control of MIDI standard instruments, a PRV or an event list are an exact description of what is actually happening, where notation is not. So it's kind of the opposite; it's notation that gives the incomplete picture.
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stevec
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 14:57:23
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So it's kind of the opposite; it's notation that gives the incomplete picture. Hmmm... I think the PRV or Event List is much more "precise" than the SV could every be, but the SV provides a better overall picture of how multiple MIDI tracks interact. I'm pretty good with the PRV since I rarely use the SV, even though I do read notation, but simultaneously showing more than three or four notes (for me) does start to get more difficult. For example, I can recognize CEGB as a major 7th way quicker in notation than in the PRV. And even quicker as a Chord symbol. But I can control the start time and duration of each note much better in the PRV than the SV. Different needs, different purposes. Personally, I do hope to see incremental improvements in the SV so that I'm more comfortable using it. I have no need for a notation app, just the basics that work... you know, triplets, ties, etc. 
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vintagevibe
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 15:14:12
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If you need to do voice leading you need notation. If all you are doing is beats and loops or guitar rock you might not need notation.
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vintagevibe
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 15:15:48
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stevec
For example, I can recognize CEGB as a major 7th way quicker in notation than in the PRV. And even quicker as a Chord symbol. But I can control the start time and duration of each note much better in the PRV than the SV. Different needs, different purposes.
Which is why full feature DAW's have both.
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yorolpal
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 16:21:36
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vintagevibe
If you need to do voice leading you need notation. If all you are doing is beats and loops or guitar rock you might not need notation.
Well as a commercial broadcast music producer I'm seldom called on to do beats/loops but I do have to be able to produce anything and everything "from Snoop Dogg to the London Philharmonic and all points in between" as we tell potential clients. So yes I do a fair amount of orchestral stuff as well. And all with just the piddly ol PV to guide me. Go figure:-)
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vintagevibe
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 16:35:38
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yorolpal
vintagevibe
If you need to do voice leading you need notation. If all you are doing is beats and loops or guitar rock you might not need notation.
Well as a commercial broadcast music producer I'm seldom called on to do beats/loops but I do have to be able to produce anything and everything "from Snoop Dogg to the London Philharmonic and all points in between" as we tell potential clients. So yes I do a fair amount of orchestral stuff as well. And all with just the piddly ol PV to guide me. Go figure:-)
Are you producing or composing?
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yorolpal
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 16:41:26
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Both. Or all, I guess I should say. I think it up. Put it down. Mix and Master it. And send it out the door.
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John T
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 17:15:44
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By the sounds of it, what olpal does is more sophisticated than anything I do, but I've done a whole heap of string and brass arrangements for rock / pop type stuff in the PRV. I suppose I'd have to leave it to others to say whether I do it well or not, but I get paid to do it. So it's at least in the realm of the objectively competent. By which I mean, I think the claim "If you need to do voice leading you need notation" doesn't hold. You could probably make a case that someone with more formal compositional skill than I could do a better job, and could make use of more sophisticated tools, but that is, I think you have to admit, a much smaller claim.
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John T
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 17:18:57
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Given the title of the thread, can anyone point to a DAW that has a notably superior staff view? I've actually never seen one I thought was up to much in any program.
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vintagevibe
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 17:20:52
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John T
Given the title of the thread, can anyone point to a DAW that has a notably superior staff view? I've actually never seen one I thought was up to much in any program.
Cubase, Protools, Digital Performer.
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John T
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 17:37:03
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I've seen the Cubase and ProTools ones, and I think they're about as good as Sonar's (ie: not very good at all). I've never used DP.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 17:38:19
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I did a Pro Tools 10 course at the end of last year and Avid told us that the next version of Pro Tools (11) will have some great new features. Fast bounce, 64 Bit (I think) and they are going to integrate (or charge extra) a pretty hefty version of Sibelius into the program. It will have full score editing capablity and will talk to all the great virtual instruments inside PT as well. The current score features inside PT10 are not too bad right now either. But I don't use it a lot so I am not really in a position to say. I play all my parts in live. PT 11 will probaly be the ultimate program that features score editing and it will blitz the competition once and for all. I am not sure how expensive it will be an if it will be an add on and how much it will be either. (knowing Avid maybe quite a lot) But this is something that has not come out yet but as far as what is the best score editing now I am not sure. Maybe Logic still has the better score editing right now. I would say no program is really strong in that area. You don't need score editing to make great music either. If it's a good idea it is going to come out no matter what features any progrm has.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/05/02 17:48:20
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pbognar
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/02 17:48:50
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This is ridiculous.
The thread was going along great, and it turned into a clusterflop. Users having to defend their tools of choice for MIDI editing, and others telling them that they shouldn't need them, while yet others don't get the point at all, and think it's all about printing scores.
"What's the big deal? Just go buy a notation program..."
Give me a break.
I have a great idea, let's do away with the PRV, keep the SV and the Event List editor. We all know the Event List editor is so much more precise than the PRV. It has everything that is in the MIDI stream - MIDI is a serial protocol.
Frankly, I'm surprised Noel stopped in. However, I have to say that my hopes of seeing any of the little shortcomings of Staff View have been squashed.
Fixing the Staff View is not sexy. However, Pro Tools thought it was sexy enough to add it to PT8. Go figure.
I tend to think that Cakewalk are trying to reach a diverse crowd - from loops, to MIDI, to audio, to mastering, to the matrix view.
I just can't fathom how people who think of MIDI in terms of notation are relegated to being 3rd class citizens.
Maybe there will be renewed interest, when audio will be able to be displayed as notation. Nothing says music to me more than an audio waveform display.
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