trimph1
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 09:15:36
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Leave my Minimoog alone!!!! 
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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John T
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 09:17:03
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That electric guitar, you'll see, it's just a fad.
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PTheory
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 09:18:26
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Jimbo 88
Sonar handles soft synths way better than any other DAW. Sonar's Audio is pretty cool. If you couple Sonar with Sony Vegas it handles picture well also.
Sonar is simple and easy to use and a great compositional tool....it gives me an edge over my compitition.
If SONAR handled Staff View at an exceptable level it would be the greatest software ever!
Sonar is music software and should try to work with music notation
SO Jerry...keep pushing
and John T you shouldn't belittle anyone for doing so
Got to 100% disagree with you there, having been an avid Sonar user for last 8 years, was working with another producer this week who used Ableton Live Suite and it completely blew Sonar out of the water in every way for composition / soft synths even audio manipulation. Never thought I'd say this but Sonar looked positively embarrassed in every way next to it so I will be making the switch to Ableton no question whatsoever.
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John T
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 09:38:33
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Hmm, interesting perspective. I suppose it all depends how you work. I like Ableton a lot, but I found a bit constraining to actually mix in.
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PTheory
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 09:44:58
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John T
Hmm, interesting perspective. I suppose it all depends how you work. I like Ableton a lot, but I found a bit constraining to actually mix in.
Agreed would never use it to mix in and mainly use Pro Tools or Sonar but it's creation engine is second to non
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PTheory
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 09:48:23
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The producer I was working with ran his whole world on an Openlabs Miko which is another piece of kit I now simply have to buy, that was awesome!
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jm24
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 10:48:28
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"Love it or leave it!"
Been hearing that stupidity/wisdom all my life. I have done both.
Takes a while to know which is the correct action. This is one of the reasons procreation should not be allowed in a first marriage. Otherwise one can never actually leave.
My view: Improving the staff interface would significantly improve the whole program. Why? Just like with the "smart-tools" for the prv, (and screen sets,) attention to speed in the SV would ripple through the rest of the views. Flexibility would/could be increased everywhere as the result of the mental model of tools (cursor, pointer, keyboard, toolbar,...) that provide quick input and clear visual feedback.
Sonar has always been too INexpensive. Clearly this is so when inflation is accounted for. I get annoyed when I hear there are limited resources available given the decrease in pricing. Over the last 10 years the real price has dropped by almost half (inflation). And then X1 was priced about 40% less than previous upgrades.
To say this was reasonable is ignorance at best. During the same period of time Cakewalk has been selling Sonar at least a dozen DAW programs have sold millions of copies at all price points.
I am sad that the managers of CW decided to place Sonar in the low end. (And very sad Roland yanked the company into hardware development. A major diversion.) Guitar tracks was supposed to cover the low end. With Sonar to be the TOP-OF-THE-LINE.
Reaper has scripting, PT will soon have major integrated notation, Cubase sells Nuendo,... All these choices/changes have occurred during the past 10 years.
I have repeatedly encouraged the CW managers to charge more money, offer a more featured program,... But what we got with X1 was a Studio One clone, with much flexiblity and power removed from the features many "old timers" used. The Staff View is worse in X1. There is less clutter, and hence less power.
"Reducing Clutter" is a narrow mental model. Smart tool, screensets,... VERY GOOD STUFF. But extra menus, more clicks, giant command bars,.... reducing speed, and clarity, and replacing what worked very well???? Short minded at best.
It took 5 numbered versions of Sonar to get almost completely configurable tool bars. (Never got a save-as button.) Another 5 years before SonarX has recovered?
Those of us who do not LOVE IT, and are close to LEAVING IT, are sad to have to make such a choice given our dedication and patience.
j
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Jimbo 88
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 11:07:13
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Hey John T and Trimp1 yes i have bad news for you guys, the electric gtr and mini moog will be changed as generations come and go, they will be made a different way, sound different, the elcetric gtr and moog sounds of the 60's, 70's, 80's all have there dated sounds great as they might be. But violins and trumpets and French horns etc will still be.... Hey This my 1000th post...do i win something?
post edited by Jimbo 88 - 2012/05/03 11:13:35
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djwayne
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 11:20:22
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Sounds to me like the forums have been infiltrated by paid schills for other DAW's.
I'll keep my new Sonar X1 thank you, it's working fine for me.
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John T
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 11:25:45
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Well, you've skipped the other part of the point I made there, which is that there are many, many "real" instruments that have faded into obscurity and beyond. The ones I named haven't been heard by human ears for many hundreds of years. Being a "real" instrument is no guarantee of immortality any more than being an electronic instrument guarantees a short life.
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John T
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 11:31:11
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As for your other point, the solid body electric guitar really hasn't changed at all since it's inception. Certainly, by the time you have the Telecaster launched in 1950, the design is essentially "finished", and the fundamentals have been fixed since then. And that's only a minor modification from the Broadcaster in '48. You could arguably go back further. But you could take a 1950 telecaster and play any style of modern guitar music on it without any problems.
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BEATZM1D10T
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 11:39:34
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John T
As for your other point, the solid body electric guitar really hasn't changed at all since it's inception. Certainly, by the time you have the Telecaster launched in 1950, the design is essentially "finished", and the fundamentals have been fixed since then. And that's only a minor modification from the Broadcaster in '48. You could arguably go back further. But you could take a 1950 telecaster and play any style of modern guitar music on it without any problems.
Except something with divebombs!  I'd also say that a Nocaster into a 50's Fender Hi-powered Tweed Twin isn't a 'dated' sound either like Jimbo 88 says. You can simply cover so much ground with that setup. Jazz, Country, Rock, Folk, Indie, Alternative, Funk, Hip Hop....
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John T
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 12:14:40
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Trem arms didn't come as standard on guitars for a long time, it's true, but they do actually pre-date the Telecaster, and you could have hacked one on without much difficulty.
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BEATZM1D10T
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 12:18:25
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John T
Trem arms didn't come as standard on guitars for a long time, it's true, but they do actually pre-date the Telecaster, and you could have hacked one on without much difficulty.
Agreed. Country guys love those bigsby's.
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musicroom
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 12:32:06
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Most of the daws this side of nuendo are at great bang for your buck prices.
I guess when it is all said and done - put in feature requests for what you need. If the company doesn't think that's the direction they want to take. Go with another company. I would not let tools stand in the way of the music if the budget allowed. I'm more than happy with Sonar because of their solid audio and midi approach.
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xabiton
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 13:11:13
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jsg
Comparison from a long time (20 years!) Sonar user:
For the first time in 20 years I'm looking at other DAWs.
What I learned won't cause me to move over to Cubase. Yes, the staff editor in Cubase is superior, it handles tied triplets, dotted triplets and 64th notes without a problem. But Cubase's event list is inferior to Sonar's. In Sonar you can rename patch names and controller names--and those renamed items show up in the event list. Not so in Cubase. Also, I don't believe Cubase is integrated well into Windows, for example, there are no right-click context menus, another thing Sonar does much better. So I ruled out Cubase and am now waiting for Pro Tools to go 64-bit and for Digital Performer for Windows to be released.
I wrote a letter to Noel Borthwick asking him to please be truthful with me and tell me if Cakewalk is ever planning to improve the staff view. I know he has no obligation to write back, but it is a bit disappointing that he cannot reply to a 20 year customer. If I knew that Cakewalk is never going to do anything about the staff view, I'd stop sending bug reports and stop posting on this forum, in other words, I would spend my time more productively.
It is good to know that Pro Tools, Cubase and, from what I am learning, Digital Performer all take notation and the staff editor far more seriously than Cakewalk. In version 7 of DP, for example, there are improvements listed made to the notation editor. Perhaps in the very near future Sonar will drop the staff view altogether, while the other DAW publishers will move ahead and continue to improve it. Even Pro Tools staff view handles tied triplets and 64th notes correctly, which is surprising, since PT didn't get into MIDI until later in the game. It will be interesting to see how things shape up in the next few years.
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
I think Cakewalk only takes audio recording, editing and mixing seriously. If you use notations or midi stuff then you are pretty much screwed using Sonar.
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stevec
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 14:13:26
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If you use notations or midi stuff then you are pretty much screwed using Sonar. Staff View... yeah, can't argue too much myself. But I really like the way SONAR handles MIDI in general, always have. And I also like the soft synth implementation, it just works for the way I think.
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Jimbo 88
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 14:36:35
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John T
Well, you've skipped the other part of the point I made there, which is that there are many, many "real" instruments that have faded into obscurity and beyond. The ones I named haven't been heard by human ears for many hundreds of years. Being a "real" instrument is no guarantee of immortality any more than being an electronic instrument guarantees a short life.
Your point reminds me of how my children do debates... Someone says "the sky is blue" and the other says, "no it's not... it's actually all colors". But in reality the sky it is blue when you look at it and all the other trivia has little to do with the subject at hand. I mean, how does the 1950 telecaster fit into the discussion that notation will be used for larger groups to play music and Sonar could be part of that????
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John T
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 14:41:37
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It doesn't. I was addressing your claim that electronic instruments come and go while so called real ones don't, and then further addressing your suggestion that the electric guitar was somehow a still developing thing. You'd have to tell me what these things have to do with the larger discussion, they're your claims, not mine.
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Jimbo 88
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 20:22:15
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Good luck john T You need it...
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dubdisciple
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 20:55:13
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The Roland 303 was an absolute flop for it's original purpose and ended up becoming the second most important tool in techno for a good stretch.
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dubdisciple
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 21:03:35
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internet arguments are funny. Plenty of instruments, acoustic and electronic come and go. In the big picture, there is no guarantee that any instrument played today outside of the most basic percussion sounds will be popular a thousand years from now. I'm sure Apollo and pan thought the lyre and panpipes would always be hip. Even comparing more recent instruments is apples and oranges. The French Horn is still in use, but it certainly is far from popular in the literal sense of the word. This is no disrespect to classical music ( i have season tickets for local symphony), but orchestral music is far from the popular music of our time. It made the leap from being "the norm" to being regulated to fine art for the sake of fine art and functional backdrop for scores long ago.
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dubdisciple
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 21:04:22
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I think the HurdyGurdy needs to make a comeback
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John T
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 21:04:25
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Not sure what your problem is Jimbo. Then again, not sure that I much care.
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John T
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 21:17:33
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French Horn is an interesting example. It's undergone quite a lot of fairly radical changes in its lifespan. Modern ones are really not much like ones from the 17/1800s at all, both functionally and sonically. Some orchestras go to the trouble of having special ones for music from certain eras for this very reason. Then again, you have other orchestral instruments that are pretty static in design terms, like the violin.
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trimph1
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 21:17:35
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I love me some Crumhorn....
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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yorolpal
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 22:19:22
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This is simply a question of how "big" your big picture view is. As a famous econimist said, "in the long run, we are all dead". Even instruments like the violin...even...yes...the piano forte will fall by the wayside. It is inevitable. The dinosaurs no longer roam the earth and neither will we before too long. Such is nature. To cling to such temporal things is understandable but only holds us back...like those folks in Afganistan who think the proper way to deal with girls who wish to do nothing more than "learn" is to throw acid in their face. Don't fear the future...it does you no good and you have little chance of changing it. And absolutely NO chance of stemming its tide.
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jm24
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/03 23:55:37
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trimph1
I love me some Crumhorn....
Now we'er talkin' real music. Did a location recording with a portable stereo cassette about 30 years ago. Small church. Medieval music. Way lots Crumhorn. Time for another listen. Wish I had such skills. And:::: Clarinet is one of my favorite sounds.
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jsg
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/05 21:02:50
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vintagevibe
Let me guess, you want a full featured notation program inside of Sonar and don't want to pay extra for it ???
djwayne
Let me guess, you want a full featured notation program inside of Sonar and don't want to pay extra for it ???
Nobody wants that. You're not listening.
I think the people who don't use the staff view have this bizarre and entrenched habit of thinking that those of us who use the staff view for MIDI input and editing want a full notation program inside Sonar. That, from what I am reading, is not what we want. I for one want a notation editor that can display tied and dotted triplets and 64th notes correctly, and to fix the bug where the track pane's order of tracks matches that of the staff. Some have suggested, rightfully, that once a composer is concerned with voice-leading and harmony, the staff view is the only way to go, certainly in comparison to the PRV. But here is another reason: counterpoint. I cannot imagine trying to write a 4-part fugue, or for that matter any contrapuntally conceived composition in 4, 5 or or more parts where the music is more about independent melodic lines than clear chord progressions, as my music often is, in the PRV. I'd gladly pay extra for a DAW that took these concerns into account. The notation is Cubase IS far better than Sonar's, no doubt. But the event list in Cubase is not so hot and the lack of right-click context menus is weird for a Windows application. I can see how someone who does not compose complex music, or who does not read music, uses the PRV. I've tried to use it but have never succeeded because of the lack of precision of note lengths and the lack of visual confirmation of harmony and counterpoint. For the poster who said that music notation is imprecise, he is correct. Just as a conductor and players must breath life into a notated score, by infusing it with gesture, expression, meaning and energy, so to must a producer of electronic music when using a score. The nature of music will always be that any attempt to symbolically represent it will be, to some degree, imprecise. But I'll take the imprecision of the notation over the PRV any day. The interpretation of a score is about giving it meaning, giving the notes (and silence) emotion, direction, purpose. Notation alone cannot do this, but neither can the event list or the PRV. That is the the beauty and magic of music. But for organizing a composition, particularly a complex orchestral composition or even a piece with only a few instruments that is contrapuntal in texture, notation is no doubt the right tool. JG www.jerrygerber.com
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Brando
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Re:Sonar & Other DAWs
2012/05/05 21:52:39
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I completely agree that improvements to SONAR's notation are way past due. Jerry I appreciate your patience in your mission to get the folks at Cakewalk, and its user base, to relate to why it is necessary. My own skills are not where I would like them to be although when I was a kid I was a pretty decent sight reader. But - and I am guessing the same may be true for a lot of SONAR musicians/composers - if SONAR's notation capabilities were better - I would definitely use it more - as a composition tool.
Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
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