Staff view - how many users seriously use it?

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riojazz
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/19 23:35:29 (permalink)
I need the staff view to be better. I would like to be able to remain within SONAR to do notation editing.

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#31
InstrEd
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/19 23:42:48 (permalink)
To be honest, Staff View looks like an early example of a feature that was added and more or less forgotten

I do NOT think staff view, even as it is, should be removed. But realistically, I think the chances of its being improved in the current Sonar line/design are non-existent and that those waiting for a change in Sonar 9 are waiting for the same Godot they were waiting for in Sonar 8 and Sonar 7. If SV was important to Cakewalk's business, they'd have addressed it long ago.

Praying that you are wrong on this. With Avid owning Sibelius and version 6 just out the door with new features and rewire support. Having Notation able to play with DAW's - Wow what a concept
I don't see how Cakewalk can ignore addressing the staff view this time around.

Ed
#32
pbognar
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/19 23:54:51 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Susan G

[broken record]
You can't tie into, out of, or within a triplet.
Triplets can't include rests.
[/broken record]
Deal-breaker right there for me. I can't see what I want to see in SV.

I have no interest in nor use for the Loop Construction or Step Sequencer Views, for example, and I couldn't care less about Beatscape, but I know these are valuable for some. I certainly wouldn't ask that those be removed just because I don't use them.

I don't necessarily think this is where this conversation is headed, but just in case...!

-Susan


Gee, Emagic Notator had this in 1993:



This was about the time I sold my PC and whatever I was using to sequence the time, and bought an Atari 1040 and Notator. This was a freakin' breakthrough in my opinion. Seeing the notes hop onto the staff as you were recording was unbelievable. And editing was a scream. You could grab a note out of a chord and move it up and down the staff, and the chord would resound with each new note.

I don't think it is asking too much to have Sonar be able to stand head to head with Cubase, Logic, and PT8.

Truth be told, I don't have much need for printing, but coming from even a modest music education, score editing is part of making music.
#33
PaPi
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 00:12:00 (permalink)
The fastest way for me to find a note I want to edit is the staff view. Therefore it's my editing page of choice. I don't need anything sophisticated, when I want to print out parts I use Sibelius. But I definitely need something better than what Sonar currently has. Cubase's staff view is much better and it's much easier to edit music.
#34
vmw
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 00:15:44 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: rbratton



Amen! I believe in using the most appropriate tool for the task at hand. Therefore, if I need to work with music notation, I (too) will choose Finale over Sonar. OTOH, while Finale has the capabilities for creating audio files, when I need to create audio from MIDI, I pick Sonar.

I will sometimes use the Staff view in Sonar when I want to see the music notation of a MIDI file that someone else created. It IS useful, so I wouldn't want to lose it. But it's not a real biggie for me.

later,
randy


So you use ProTools or Nuendo for audio, Acid for loops, Vegas for audio added & mixed to video projects… the list is endless if you want to use the "most appropriate tool".
It seems to me that Cakewalk set out with pro-audio and then sonar with an app that could do multi tasks and presumably do them well and keep up with advances in technology, which is evident in the advancement of the other features in each new version release.
Is it too much to ask for Cakewalk to progress with the staff view? After all we SV users have been subsidizing the non SV users for years while cake upgraded all but the SV features.
#35
WDI
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 00:58:46 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Marah

It's *too* faithful -- literal minded -- to performance subtleties and so gives you a clutter of note values that for staff purposes should be resolved to basic quarters and eighths and so on... it should have some kind of automatic "quantization" tolerance, or whatever. So I end up creating a special quantized clone just for staff view. But even then, even for just a single staff, the view is linear and doesn't wrap, so it's not terribly useful. I've occasionally used Prinit View, or actually printed it out, just to see what was going on.


Hello Marah,

Not sure if this will help the clutter issue, but there are two options for quantizing notes visually, Fill Durations (F) and Trim Durations (M). These two options either round up or down to the nearest beat and really cleans up the notation for parts played live with a midi keyboard. Here is from Sonar help...

Changing the Way Notes Are Displayed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unlike musical notation programs, SONAR uses the MIDI events themselves as the permanent representation of the music; thus, the Staff view is only an interpretation of a MIDI performance.

MIDI notes do not always correspond exactly to notes on a staff. Whereas a staff defines precise grid-like starting times and durations for notes, a MIDI note can start at any arbitrary time during the project, and last for any length of time. If you record a performance from a MIDI keyboard, for example, you'll find that some notes may start slightly before the beat, and some a little after, and that the notes end a little late or a little early. Although these slight imperfections are what gives a performance its "human" quality, you don't necessarily want to see all these imperfections notated with excruciating precision.

The Staff view has two options you can select to affect the way MIDI notes are displayed on the staff:

Option...
Purpose...
Fill Durations
Visually rounds up note durations to the next beat or the next note, whichever comes first.
Trim Durations
Visually rounds down note durations if they extend a little way past the start of the next note.

Yes I use Staff View. I've always been really impressed with the overall ease of using Staff View in Sonar. Also, I've always liked the way you could toggle on the fret view. I mean really, in its current state, Staff view has a lot to offer. For instance adding cord diagrams. I think some of us just want it cleaned up a little. I don't think it has changed in the 10 years I've been using Cakewalk.

EDIT:
Also, adding lyrics in Staff View is cool. Let’s say you write a song for someone else to sing. It's a great way to show them the melody and phrasing you had in mind. It even plays the lyrics in time. Is it necessary? No. Is it a good tool? Definitely.

Let’s face it though. The current zoom in Staff View is terrible. It would be nice to have an option to view as a page like other notation programs. Also, printing one staff is fine. But printing multiple staves has serious formatting issues such as forcing 2 bars per line sometimes. I'm not talking about needing professional formatting for submitting prints for publishing. But it's has to be reasonable, not wasting paper with horrible formatting.

For me, Staff View is one of the cores of the program. Beatscape etc, those are fluff.

Oh, and I own Sibelius. However, I only use it to over come Sonar's print formating issues.
post edited by WDI - 2009/05/20 01:27:49

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#36
Marah
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 01:50:59 (permalink)
Hi WDI. Thanks for that info.

I didn't realize that SV had it's own system for "quantizing" the MIDI before rendering it as notation.

I'll remember that the next time I need a quick melody notation.

Thanks again!
#37
Nick P
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 02:08:24 (permalink)
Useless. Just more overhead. Can it. Or strike a strategic partnership with Finale and allow users to create Sonar MIDI performances in Finale.

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#38
vinski
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 04:36:31 (permalink)
I can't read 'real' music so I use the PRV. Works for me when I need it. No probs.

So that's a no from me.

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#39
Wookiee
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 04:42:08 (permalink)
I use the staff view all the time, it has lots of weaknesses but it does what I want it to do. I have no need to print scores.

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lavoll
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 05:17:29 (permalink)
playing back lyrics in time karaoke style.. i'd totally forgotten about that :) I remember using it once on a session that had to happen superfast. and I remember it working very well, the talent got it up on her screen, sang, done.

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#41
MUSEd
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 05:27:12 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: vintagevibe

Sonar needs usable notation a la Logic, Cuebase and Protools 8. I have Sibelius but that is better for publishing. I use Sonar to compose and notation is a very important part of compostion for myself and many others.


Exactly. Sonar is a composition environment - some compose with loops and record audio, some use the midi tools or notation. It's the notation that's the weakest link. While you could go to another app to write notation for print/publication if you want to actually compose stuff using the instruments you have in Sonar then best to do it in Sonar.
#42
Susan G
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 05:33:17 (permalink)
Hi WDI-

Two excellent points!

Notation basically has to be quantized for it to be readable if it comes from a played part. There are just too many nuances otherwise. Take any score and no matter who plays it there will be subtle (and not-so-subtle) differences. That's called interpretation, of course, and I don't think anyone would want to try to play from an interpreted score, however useful it might be for study.

Using lyrics in Staff View is pretty cool, too [until you run into timing problems, but I've run that into the ground].

Thanks-

-Susan

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Nick P
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 06:14:23 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Susan G

Notation basically has to be quantized for it to be readable



Wow. Never thought of it that way, and I've been reading music every day for many years. Of course. Printed music is by definition quantized. Even Chopin and Debussy.

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vintagevibe
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 08:27:08 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Elffin

Just looked up Sibelius 6... it now works via rewire - nice ...... I suppose I will have to wait for reiwire to get 64bit treatment now.....



That will be incredible for large scores - I'll upgrade to Sibelius 6 but I still need usable noation inside Sonar.
#45
vintagevibe
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 08:30:05 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Susan G

Hi WDI-

Two excellent points!

Notation basically has to be quantized for it to be readable if it comes from a played part. There are just too many nuances otherwise. Take any score and no matter who plays it there will be subtle (and not-so-subtle) differences. That's called interpretation, of course, and I don't think anyone would want to try to play from an interpreted score, however useful it might be for study.

Using lyrics in Staff View is pretty cool, too [until you run into timing problems, but I've run that into the ground].

Thanks-

-Susan



This is incorrect and very misleading. Sibelius has the ability to play back EXACTLY what was played in and still DISPLAY in "quantized" form. (You can also hear aquanitezed version but the data is not changed). Sonar does a similar thing. You can change the display of notes in staff view but you still hear that data as played.
post edited by vintagevibe - 2009/05/20 08:33:22
#46
marce
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 08:45:49 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: vintagevibe

ORIGINAL: Susan G

Hi WDI-

Two excellent points!

Notation basically has to be quantized for it to be readable if it comes from a played part. There are just too many nuances otherwise. Take any score and no matter who plays it there will be subtle (and not-so-subtle) differences. That's called interpretation, of course, and I don't think anyone would want to try to play from an interpreted score, however useful it might be for study.

Using lyrics in Staff View is pretty cool, too [until you run into timing problems, but I've run that into the ground].

Thanks-

-Susan



This is incorrect and very misleading. Sibelius has the ability to play back EXACTLY what was played in and still DISPLAY in "quantized" form. (You can also hear aquanitezed version but the data is not changed). Sonar does a similar thing. You can change the display of notes in staff view but you still hear that data as played.


Some kind of "non-destructive" quantize. Keep the raw data, keeping your performance, display the quantized one.

#47
vintagevibe
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 09:19:09 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Susan G

Some kind of "non-destructive" quantize. Keep the raw data, keeping your performance, display the quantized one.




Exactly. You can also (in version 6) "conduct" in real time via computer keyboard spacebar.
#48
digitaleagle12
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 10:29:22 (permalink)
I would like to see enhancements to the staff view in Sonar. I use it all the time for editing midi. I also have Sibelius but would also like more functionality in Cakewalk. I don't like using the prv for editing midi. I'm not saying it needs to be a full notation capability, just better than it currently is. Say - competitive to Cubase at least.


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#49
RigPa
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 12:04:46 (permalink)
I use the Staff View all the time. When I make a choir or string quartet setup it is my absolutely preferred way to be able to see 4 tracks simultaneusly. Even when making drums this is my no. 1. If there were no notatio in Sonar I wasnt here. I would definately like some notation improvement :)

I have a bunch of clients that would rather have a staffview printed than a midi file so being able to setup a good looking and detailled staff is imperative to me at the same time it is integrated in the DAW. A DAW without notation is not a real DAW.

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#50
rbratton
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 12:24:26 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: vmw


ORIGINAL: rbratton



Amen! I believe in using the most appropriate tool for the task at hand. Therefore, if I need to work with music notation, I (too) will choose Finale over Sonar. OTOH, while Finale has the capabilities for creating audio files, when I need to create audio from MIDI, I pick Sonar.

I will sometimes use the Staff view in Sonar when I want to see the music notation of a MIDI file that someone else created. It IS useful, so I wouldn't want to lose it. But it's not a real biggie for me.

later,
randy


So you use ProTools or Nuendo for audio, Acid for loops, Vegas for audio added & mixed to video projects… the list is endless if you want to use the "most appropriate tool".



If you think those tools are better, that's great. I'm content with Sonar for what I need it to do--read existing MIDI files (from Finale), mix down the tracks, and export a high-quality audio file in one of several formats.

It works for me; your mileage may vary .

Hmmmm...Vegas? What about Premiere Pro?

randy

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#51
RTGraham
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 12:51:16 (permalink)
In the past, I've used Staff View for one purpose, and one purpose only: if I recorded a synthbass track on a song, and then wanted to track a real bass that would double the synthbass with all the same variations and fills, then I would read the synthbass track in Staff View while playing the real electric bass. However, I don't usually even do it that way anymore - the last time I needed a bass / synthbass double track, I tracked the real bass first and converted it to MIDI in Melodyne for the synthbass track.

After reading some other posts here though, I can see how it might be useful to do MIDI editing in Staff View for certain instruments. Because I'm so accustomed to Finale, and because SONAR's Staff View is so much more limited in scope and ability, it never even occurred to me to use it for proper editing; but there are definitely instances, thinking back now with 20/20 hindsight, where I probably could have done certain edits more quickly.

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#52
vintagevibe
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 13:01:57 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: RTGraham

After reading some other posts here though, I can see how it might be useful to do MIDI editing in Staff View for certain instruments.



As an example: A pop song that needs a string part. I would be insane to try to create 4 part voice leading in the piano view.
#53
sergiobklyn
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 13:16:23 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: uncleswede

Hi,
I've just been reading some threads on Sonar's Staff View and its obvious deficiencies. The threads had posts from a lot of passionate users who maintained that "we all are obviously unsatisfied" and that this is "the biggest problem with their software". Some were so disappointed with it that they were considering abandoning Sonar altogether.

The question occurred to me re: what percentage of Sonar users seriously use the Staff View (I don't...) and therefore how much of a deficiency is it overall. I didn't want to hijack the other threads so I thought I'd ask the question here.



I would seriously use the Staff View if it were better.
Sergio
#54
dischilln
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 14:07:24 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: daveny5

I use it for what I believe it was intended for: editing MIDI tracks. I prefer real notation to the Piano Roll View. I don't use it for printing manuscript.


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#55
Jon Bryson
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 15:33:08 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: vintagevibe


ORIGINAL: RTGraham

After reading some other posts here though, I can see how it might be useful to do MIDI editing in Staff View for certain instruments.



As an example: A pop song that needs a string part. I would be insane to try to create 4 part voice leading in the piano view.


Precisely!

Jon
#56
loydb
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 16:36:51 (permalink)
I use it a lot, and grind my teeth every time. I hate that I have to seriously consider budgeting for a real notation program because Sonar treats it like a red-headed stepchild.

#57
wintaper
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 16:43:48 (permalink)
I typically key midi arrangements in using PRV but I sanity-check the music using Staff view. It works just enough.

For more serious notation requirements, I also have Finale Allegro, from which I can export midi files if necessary.

-Dan

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#58
MatsonMusicBox
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 17:09:17 (permalink)
I don't use it at all. If use Sibelius for notation when I need it. If SONAR's SV was actually worth a crap, I probably would use it I suppose. I do my editing in PRV - usually inline PRV. I can't imagine editing MIDI in standard notation, and I read music well.

KenM

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#59
Waldemar Brisk
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 18:05:43 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: MatsonMusicBox
I can't imagine editing MIDI in standard notation...


Well, let me help you then. Imagine a staff view either docked to or inserted as a toggable stripe in the piano roll view. With both views perfectly syncronized, whatever you edit in one view will simultaneously show in the other as well. And when you mark a note, it will be shown as marked in both views. You choose in which one to work - for instance stretching notes is probably easier in the piano roll, whereas editing a chord is easier in the staff (for those who read notation). All kinds of processing, filtering etc. would be possible in either view. You just choose if you prefer to do it and watch it happen in a matrix (piano roll) or in a musical staff.

As it is now, the matrix is the only option if you want to get things done "seriously", as the OP put it. But it wouldn't have to be so.



Kind regards,
wb
post edited by Waldemar Brisk - 2009/05/20 18:19:10

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