Staff view - how many users seriously use it?

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Kev999
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/30 09:02:40 (permalink)
It's certainly handy if you need to provide parts to singers/instrumentalists who read traditional notation but not piano rolls!

That's a good reason to print out from staff view, but not necessarily to edit there.

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Susan G
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/30 09:21:16 (permalink)
That's a good reason to print out from staff view, but not necessarily to edit there.

True. Editing in SV can be painful, and at this point I'm usually faster with PRV, even for multiple parts. When you said "using" I wasn't sure how broadly you meant that.

BTW, @vintagevibe: For something like what you describe (4-part voice leading), the way I do it in PRV is to have 4 separate MIDI tracks with distinctly different colors. I open them all in PRV at the same time, and then the voice leading is pretty clear.

Thanks-

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vintagevibe
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/30 13:01:50 (permalink)
Notation is a far more robust way to to compose symphonic music than a PRV will ever be. To have to look back to the left every time you want to see the pitch of a note takes far longer than looking at notation. I have to assume that people who say that it is better (or even possible) to do a serious orchestral piece in the PRV either have never done it or have never done it with notation. It's not that same thing by any means. When you look at notation you instantly know the pitch, intervals and chords. That is not possible in PRV.
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John
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/30 13:41:05 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: vintagevibe

Notation is a far more robust way to to compose symphonic music than a PRV will ever be. To have to look back to the left every time you want to see the pitch of a note takes far longer than looking at notation. I have to assume that people who say that it is better (or even possible) to do a serious orchestral piece in the PRV either have never done it or have never done it with notation. It's not that same thing by any means. When you look at notation you instantly know the pitch, intervals and chords. That is not possible in PRV.

Very good point. Notation has been around a very long time and its been optimized for sight reading. The PRV is not meant for that purpose but it may be true that some very few can simply look a any PRV of any sequence and know the tune. A little like those in the past that could read machine language directly. I am not one of them BTW. I can just see us printing out a PRV to hand to band members to sight read. Not going to happen. Well maybe it would work if they are all machines. Then all they need is a scanner.

Best
John
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vintagevibe
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/30 16:06:02 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: John


ORIGINAL: vintagevibe

Notation is a far more robust way to to compose symphonic music than a PRV will ever be. To have to look back to the left every time you want to see the pitch of a note takes far longer than looking at notation. I have to assume that people who say that it is better (or even possible) to do a serious orchestral piece in the PRV either have never done it or have never done it with notation. It's not that same thing by any means. When you look at notation you instantly know the pitch, intervals and chords. That is not possible in PRV.

Very good point. Notation has been around a very long time and its been optimized for sight reading. The PRV is not meant for that purpose but it may be true that some very few can simply look a any PRV of any sequence and know the tune. A little like those in the past that could read machine language directly. I am not one of them BTW. I can just see us printing out a PRV to hand to band members to sight read. Not going to happen. Well maybe it would work if they are all machines. Then all they need is a scanner.



I'm always hearing people who don't use notation thinking that the PRV could replace it. It cannot even come close. It takes some work to be able to read and many people who aren't willing to put out the effort like to think that it's not necessary because the can "read" the PRV. This is ignorant.
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Kev999
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/30 18:05:13 (permalink)
you look at notation you instantly know the pitch, intervals and chords. That is not possible in PRV.

Wrong about intervals. That's the one thing that is more obvious in PRV.
post edited by Kev999 - 2009/05/31 11:48:59

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vintagevibe
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/31 10:39:31 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Kev999

you look at notation you instantly know the pitch, intervals and chords. That is not possible in PRV.

Wrong about intervals. That's the one thing that is more obvious in PVR.



Not for me. You have to look to the left or count up more lines than in notation. For example in notation a 3rd is always separated by a line or a space and is instantly recognizable. In the PRV a 3rd is seperate by either 3 or 4 lines depending on whether it is a minor or major 3rd.

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Kev999
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/31 11:38:09 (permalink)
You have to look to the left or count up more lines than in notation. For example in notation a 3rd is always separated by a line or a space and is instantly recognizable. In the PRV a 3rd is seperate by either 3 or 4 lines depending on whether it is a minor or major 3rd.

Maybe you have the grid turned off. There is no need to look to the left. Just look at the relative vertical spacing of the notes.

In music notation, a minor third and a major third look the same. In PRV, they are visibly different. Surely that is preferable, isn't it?

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WDI
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/31 13:40:58 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Kev999

In music notation, a minor third and a major third look the same. In PRV, they are visibly different. Surely that is preferable, isn't it?


If you know the key, what chords are in the key you will already know what the intervals are and when these have been altered via accidentals? All of this information is shown in traditional notation.

Both PRV and Staff have their benefits. If you played via midi keyboard and the part is not quantized the PRV represents a more precise view of what was actually played. However there is a lot of information that can be quickly seen by traditional notation such as key, meter, duration, accidentals, chords, pedals, expression, lyrics, tempo etc. Notation is also the traditional standard for communicating music. This is what is used to teach music theory. This is one reason I think Staff View is important and that Sonar continues to support traditional notation.

I understand Sonar is used for many different purposes. If you are tracking live musicians, then much of Sonar doesn't matter, such as midi including Staff View and PRV. If you want to compose music in Sonar, Staff View may be a very useful tool.
post edited by WDI - 2009/05/31 14:06:27

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vintagevibe
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/31 14:12:19 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Kev999

You have to look to the left or count up more lines than in notation. For example in notation a 3rd is always separated by a line or a space and is instantly recognizable. In the PRV a 3rd is seperate by either 3 or 4 lines depending on whether it is a minor or major 3rd.

Maybe you have the grid turned off. There is no need to look to the left. Just look at the relative vertical spacing of the notes.

In music notation, a minor third and a major third look the same. In PRV, they are visibly different. Surely that is preferable, isn't it?



I have the grid turned on but for me it's a real hassle and time waster to have to count the lines or "vertical spacing". If I zoom in it's easier but that is just another needless step for me. If I'm editing for timing or phrasing I use the PRV but for harmonic development notation is far more efficient.
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vintagevibe
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/31 14:19:06 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: WDI

I understand Sonar is used for many different purposes. If you are tracking live musicians, then much of Sonar doesn't matter, such as midi including Staff View and PRV. If you want to compose music in Sonar, Staff View may be a very useful tool.


True and if you are doing groove oriented music there may be no voice leading at all and the inversions may not even matter much depending on the style. In this case SV may not be needed at all. If you are composing a string part for a pop balled or a symphonic piece, notation is essential. Now, there are people who don't read notation that may take a stab at string parts or orchestra passages but unless they are musical geniuses, take a month to do a 2 hour job or unless it is a style that has lots of unison and percussion - the voice leading will be inferior.
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Marah
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/31 17:03:28 (permalink)
PRV is basically several octaves of 12-tone staves arranged directly above and below each other.

There's something primitive about it.
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Susan G
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/31 17:31:30 (permalink)
Hi Marah-
PRV is basically several octaves of 12-tone staves arranged directly above and below each other.

There's something primitive about it.

Do you mean that in a good way, or a bad way?

The PRV range can of course be pretty much whatever you want it to be, using Zoom and Fit Content. I've been using it long enough now that I can see both points of view about whether it's easier to recognize intervals, chords, voice leadings, etc. in it or in SV. I can understand, for example, the argument that recognizing eg. a major vs. a minor third is easier in PRV, but OTOH, if you're used to working with staff notation, the key you're in is always part of the "picture", and there almost is a "visual" (or I should say definitely a "visceral") difference. That might sound crazy, but it's definitely true for me.

-Susan
post edited by Susan G - 2009/05/31 17:53:25

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#103
riture
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/31 17:49:25 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: uncleswede

what percentage of Sonar users seriously use the Staff View ?



seriously? Hmmmmnn!
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Marah
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/31 18:40:34 (permalink)
Hi Susan.

ORIGINAL: Susan G

Hi Marah-
PRV is basically several octaves of 12-tone staves arranged directly above and below each other.

There's something primitive about it.

Do you mean that in a good way, or a bad way?



Neither, really. And maybe both! It's just kind of interesting.

I remember seeing reproductions of music notation/manuscripts from before the current 5-line staff system evolved. Or at least I think I remember... I've been googling it but the closest I've come up with are Gregorians....so I'm not sure.

As I recall, the note shapes were not fixed... they were more proportional... and ranged over more than 5 lines... or were they just continuous ledger lines...? I'm not sure. Maybe it was a dream. Maybe I'm thinking of Melodyne! But surely the conventional 5 lines with accidentals, ledgers, and standard denominations evolved from something less compact...? Gregorian manuscripts aren't THAT far off from what we use today.




PRV doesn't have the compactness of notation. And it doesn't have notation's duration conventions. It's more precise and literal, but at the same time it's less readable. And PRV it doesn't wrap... it's just endlessly linear... it doesn't NEED to be... that's really just an undeveloped convention and carry-over from the linear tape model that underlies it. That's what I found so odd about Sonar's SV (and said somewhere above), that it doesn't wrap, so you end up with these different conventions circling around and doubling back on each other (if you see what I'm getting at... it's not that easy to quickly describe.)

If I had to choose PRV or SV, in a DAW, I'd go with PRV because it's more of a recording, including the performance, than a representation or blueprint of a perf. But that's the thing -- sometimes you just want a blueprint so that you can work on the performance. In another notation thread (I think it was here, but it might have been at the Reaper forum, where they have the same debates, though as you know Reaper doesn't have ANY SV) someone posted a photoshop of an "inline" staff view that ran parallel to the corresponding inline PRV. That would be really nice to have.

I've never used Sibelius or any of the other "big boy" things. But just looking at Finale's 'LE' Notepad and some of the other notation apps from various developers, it's a huge undertaking to do it well. To then have to integrate it into a modern DAW would add another layer of complexity.

I'm totally sympathetic with CW's decision to "bite the accidentals" (heehee!) and just not do it in the current codebase. I think it's the right decision... for a combination of two factors. First, as Alex said, it would be difficult and impractical to do it in the current codebase AND second, if they were to do it, and do it well, they'd be in effect investing not simply in notation, but extending their investment in and commitment to the existing codebase, which has limitations that go beyond just notation. Now to be clear, Alex did NOT say anything like that last part.... that's just me typing. But I think it's fairly obvious. That's why I don't think we'll see notation, or any other major structural-and-needs-to-be-deeply-and-well-integrated changes in CW's software line until they release their post-Sonar codebase app. I assume they're working on it as we speak.
post edited by Marah - 2009/05/31 19:05:39
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Susan G
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/31 19:46:20 (permalink)
Hi Marah-

It seems I can't ever answer all of what you post at one sitting [I'll address the "wrap" issue another time], but in part:
If I had to choose PRV or SV, in a DAW, I'd go with PRV because it's more of a recording, including the performance, than a representation or blueprint of a perf.


In a DAW, ok, but the point of this thread, I think, is where does SV fit in, and how many Users really care about and use it?

Where are [all] the expression markings, and why don't they affect the performance, and why can't I add repeats and multiple endings with different lyrics, where are Da Capo and Al Segno when you need them, ad infinitum. These are just for starters. The notation "big boys" are dedicated to all this stuff, and, as they say on TV, "much, much more".

I don't know how other DAWs handle notation, but once the door's been opened, when and how do you close it? That's what I meant when I called it a can o' worms. Not that CW couldn't do it, but that it would certainly consume resources and no matter what they did, they couldn't please all the people all the time. After all, the "big boys" haven't yet, and they're dedicated to notation and don't try or pretend to be DAWs at the same time.

Incremental improvements would be good. I literally had to change the meter of some songs just to accommodate the triplet problems in SV so I could provide readable lead sheets, and that shouldn't be necessary in any modern DAW with a notation view. That was the tipping point for me to investigate other solutions. I'm sure for others it's something else.

AND second, if they were to do it, and do it well, they'd be in effect investing not simply in notation, but extending their investment in and commitment to the existing codebase, which has limitations that go beyond just notation.


I know you believe that fervently!, and maybe you're right, but I'm just gonna wait & see.

Thanks-

-Susan

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Marah
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/31 19:50:10 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Susan G

I know you believe that fervently!,



Oh am I THAT obvious?? (Don't answer!)
post edited by Marah - 2009/05/31 19:59:56
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Susan G
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/31 20:05:04 (permalink)
Oh am I THAT obvious?? (Don't answer!)

Don't need to!

-Susan

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marce
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/31 20:22:52 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Susan G

I don't know how other DAWs handle notation, but once the door's been opened, when and how do you close it? That's what I meant when I called it a can o' worms. Not that CW couldn't do it, but that it would certainly consume resources and no matter what they did, they couldn't please all the people all the time. After all, the "big boys" haven't yet, and they're dedicated to notation and don't try or pretend to be DAWs at the same time.

Incremental improvements would be good. I literally had to change the meter of some songs just to accommodate the triplet problems in SV so I could provide readable lead sheets, and that shouldn't be necessary in any modern DAW with a notation view. That was the tipping point for me to investigate other solutions. I'm sure for others it's something else.


-Susan


Hi. I have been posting some screenshots about what i would like to see in Sonar and other cake products about SV. (here
Im using Music Creator, and the main reason to do that is that in the low range price is the only daw that have some kind of staff view. Recently, another user pointed to me to "Multitrack Studio", a low price DAW that now has StaffView, with multiple tracks at time, triplets, and some other things. I must say, i gave it a try, and beyond i believe it is not so handy and useable like the SV of cakewalk, it has the potential to be better very quickly!
The interesting thing is that the program i mentioned is developed by ONE man. And that the code, i believe, is fresh compared to the cakewalk one.
So, not im promoting other programs. I feel more comfortable with cakewalk. BUT I believe that if you dont give it some priority, you will lost points with your users.


For comparison reasons, to someone interested in know, this are the DAWs i know that have some kind of notation features:
Sonar
Cubase
Logic
Samplitude

And in the low range price:
Music Creator (same features than Sonar)
Music Studio Producer (a freebie a little weird)
Multitrack Studio
RoseGarden (Linux)


#109
InstrEd
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/31 20:42:46 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Susan G

Hi Marah-

It seems I can't ever answer all of what you post at one sitting [I'll address the "wrap" issue another time], but in part:
If I had to choose PRV or SV, in a DAW, I'd go with PRV because it's more of a recording, including the performance, than a representation or blueprint of a perf.


In a DAW, ok, but the point of this thread, I think, is where does SV fit in, and how many Users really care about and use it?

Where are [all] the expression markings, and why don't they affect the performance, and why can't I add repeats and multiple endings with different lyrics, where are Da Capo and Al Segno when you need them, ad infinitum. These are just for starters. The notation "big boys" are dedicated to all this stuff, and, as they say on TV, "much, much more".

I don't know how other DAWs handle notation, but once the door's been opened, when and how do you close it? That's what I meant when I called it a can o' worms. Not that CW couldn't do it, but that it would certainly consume resources and no matter what they did, they couldn't please all the people all the time. After all, the "big boys" haven't yet, and they're dedicated to notation and don't try or pretend to be DAWs at the same time.

Incremental improvements would be good. I literally had to change the meter of some songs just to accommodate the triplet problems in SV so I could provide readable lead sheets, and that shouldn't be necessary in any modern DAW with a notation view. That was the tipping point for me to investigate other solutions. I'm sure for others it's something else.

AND second, if they were to do it, and do it well, they'd be in effect investing not simply in notation, but extending their investment in and commitment to the existing codebase, which has limitations that go beyond just notation.


I know you believe that fervently!, and maybe you're right, but I'm just gonna wait & see.

Thanks-

-Susan


That is why I think having MusicXML import/export would be awesome plus I do think that
Sonar should be able to handle triplets by now. I just want usable notation and then we can take it from there to Notation programs for the high end stuff. I already pre-ordered
Finale 2010, but mainly for the worksheets for educators. Figure that alone is $100.00
in saved time

I do have to commend Alex for speaking on the subject and now Sonar 9 in the fall will have to knock my socks off or I'm waiting till the spring sale to upgrade.

Ed
#110
Marah
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/31 21:37:29 (permalink)
Hi marce. Ya... this is the pic I was thinking of. Very nice! Would love to have something like that.



Pic by marce: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1732916&mpage=1&key=%EF%BF%BD
post edited by Marah - 2009/05/31 21:47:48
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vintagevibe
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/31 22:13:45 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Marah

Hi marce. Ya... this is the pic I was thinking of. Very nice! Would love to have something like that.



Pic by marce: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1732916&mpage=1&key=%EF%BF%BD



This looks quite interesting.
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Jim Wright
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/06/01 00:05:39 (permalink)
I really liked the Buchla 400 sequencer display (1982) - it used horizontal bars for notes (like PRV) on a SV staff arrangement:


It looked way better in person than is shown by the picture above. It was color-coded for one thing.
This combined high timing accuracy with immediate pitch recognition, for those familiar with bass and treble clef layout.
See http://buchla.com/historical/b400/ for more on the landmark instrument.

I think a lot could be done with this kind of hybrid approach, in a new design for a sequence editor. No, it wouldn't replace a conventional scoring package (use Sibelius or Finale when you want to create engraving-quality scores). But for editing - it has a lot of potential. A modern version might add some stemming and beaming capability (to help show rhythmic relationships, and divide the bar into smaller units). For me, one big advantage of score notation is that it provides better horizontal and vertical reference points for identifying note pitch and onset at a glance. With PRV, I often have to look at the rulers to figure things out.

- Jim
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dbh
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/06/01 02:31:01 (permalink)
Marah: "First, as Alex said, it would be difficult and impractical to do it in the current codebase"

Think I missed this. When did he say that?

Cheers,
dbh
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Marah
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/06/01 02:51:01 (permalink)
Hi dbh. it was in this thread, some time last week.

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1731510&mpage=1&key=#1733049
#115
Kev999
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/06/01 03:03:17 (permalink)
PRV doesn't have the compactness of notation.

That's a fair comment. PRV requires a lot of screen area to be useful.

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#116
Marah
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/06/01 03:43:34 (permalink)
Just thinking out loud here... so...whatever.... How does this sound....

SV is to PRV what CV is to TV, in that with each pair, you can accomplish much of the same thing with either view, and there's a great deal of overlap, but in the end, and towards the margins, they serve different purposes.

SV gives you a more conventional but "coarser" way of writing music and easy-to-read performance instructions, than does PRV, which gives you finer control over note attributes (start, position, length, velocity, volume, other CC stuff) and the actual performance gestures, but at some expense of direct readability, especially once you get into multiple parts, orchestration, etc. Similarly....

CV gives you a conventional mixer layout, with standardized controls, for balancing and processing sound sources, in a compact interface, while TV gives you all the same control but also gives you direct access to the sound sources themselves, with the ability to move and copy, do local manipulations on a per-item basis, but at some cost of accessibility in the way you need to mange/control vertical and horizontal track heights and zoom levels, folder and track order, and so on...

CV is more of a fixed grid representation of the TV, the same way SV is a fixed grid representation of the PRV.

In each pair, they're kind of the same, and somewhat interchangeable, but ultimately different. I'm sure there are DAW users who never or rarely use console view, just as there are people who never use SV. Notation obviously has a deeper history and a more formal relationship to music than mixing consoles do. But just as someone coming to music from (say) an improvisational and/or informal angle would have little need for notation (and might not even be able to read it), someone coming to recording from the perspective of modern digital production might have no need for the convention of horizontal channel strips separated into "tracks" and "buses" with separate sub channels called "sends" and so on. That's why PRV and TV get more love than SV and even CV... the unified audio/MIDI tracks of Sonar 8, and the inline PRV from Sonar 6 (?) are examples of that. TV and PRV are where the most essential action is and where you can really get your hands dirty playing with the noise. CV and SV are extremely useful, but also somehow more abstract, or maybe clinical.... that probably sounds more dismissive than what I mean.... it's that they're a few degrees further away from what you actually WORK with and HEAR... which isn't "notes" and "channels" so much as "sound events" arranged and manipulated in time, on a grid that's more elastic and less -- but at the same time, more -- precise.

It's like, a DAW without SV is a simply a DAW without SV, just like a DAW without a CV is simply a DAW without a CV (eg P5, or Sonar with CV closed) but a DAW without either a TV or a PRV isn't really a DAW at all.

Whatever!
post edited by Marah - 2009/06/01 04:04:01
#117
Waldemar Brisk
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/06/01 04:00:24 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: marce
For comparison reasons, to someone interested in know, this are the DAWs i know that have some kind of notation features:
Sonar
Cubase
Logic
Samplitude


You forgot the de facto industry standard: Pro Tools. In version 8 they introduced a nice looking notation feature.



Kind regards,
wb

Miracles done while you wait;
the impossible takes slightly longer.
#118
vicsant
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/06/01 05:17:19 (permalink)
I would like to seriously use staff view much, much more in Sonar.
The many bugs and deficiencies, however, prevent me from doing so.
But I still use it if my music doesn't need triplets,
But I play jazz quite a bit...and you find a lot of that in jazz.
So as a workaround, I go back to PRV.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=914066&content=music
#119
Freddie H
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/06/01 06:30:05 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: uncleswede

Hi,
I've just been reading some threads on Sonar's Staff View and its obvious deficiencies. The threads had posts from a lot of passionate users who maintained that "we all are obviously unsatisfied" and that this is "the biggest problem with their software". Some were so disappointed with it that they were considering abandoning Sonar altogether.

The question occurred to me re: what percentage of Sonar users seriously use the Staff View (I don't...) and therefore how much of a deficiency is it overall. I didn't want to hijack the other threads so I thought I'd ask the question here.




And the answer is = NO!


It's a DAW program not a Score program. So if you are interesting making Score, use Finale!
Even though there are a included “lite” score program inside SONAR 8 too “Staff”. Its free to use for those users that need to make a score for Piano.

If I'm planing to make a book I will use “Microsoft Word” or “Open office Write”, not SONAR 8, right!





Real life example!


So let's say we planing to make a score for a orchestra to that new “X"-movie we have been working on. We will recorded it with a real Orchestra this Friday in the studio in LA.
As it is now in SONAR 8, all the Vienna “samples” & “softwares” that I have loaded in SONAR 8, 64bit; all the keys are in the wrong place for the real instruments. So even though I just hit “print” to make my printer make score partituras, the score partituras wouldn't make any sense for the musicians that going to play the “instruments” in that orchestra this Friday.

They hadn't even got a clue to played anything from those score partituras. Everything is just **** up, and in the wrong place. Even the kind of “notes” being used are wrong too. So make this work for a real orchestra, you need to make all scores partituras by hand again.

And to make sure it actually works and are 100% right I would let a professional “Orchestra arranger” make the scores partituras. “I” as composer and producer, want it to sound / performed like it sounded / performed with the Software Instruments, right.

The professional “Orchestra arranger” that would make all the new scores partituras, would use ”Finale” or other professional Scores program on the market.


http://www.finalemusic.com/





Regards
Freddie


-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
#120
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