Glennbo 
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/24 23:09:06
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bapu
I used it on my laptop and my desktop (dedicated) DAW about a dozen times each. Not one failure. Granted only in small bits.
Glenbo uses it as his main DAW, all the time without fail.
So, it's back to the "CJism": it's prolly your config or drivers.
Again, I use SONAR 8.5.1 as of a few days ago. I'm not sellin' Reaper.
You get the level headed post award of the day Bapu!
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dbmusic
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 01:52:13
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You have to admit, coming to a DAW forum to post that you're switching to another DAW is a little like pasting a target on your ass that says "Kick me!". But while I question the tactic, unfortunately I do understand the frustration. For me, 8.3.1 is the most unstable and disappointing version I've used since coming to Sonar with version 3. I get a couple of crashes a day, marketing driven bloat that I have no interest in, these absurd automation/envelope/layer bugs... Well, like I said, I DO understand the frustration... Personally, I'm glad the OP posted...and I think Cakewalk, or Roland, or whatever number cruncher is making the calls these days, should start paying a little more attention. There are a lot of old Sonar users over at the Reaper forum these days...me being one of them. Regards, DB
post edited by dbmusic - 2009/09/25 01:53:44
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Nick P
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 01:56:18
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I downloaded Reaper, tried it for about 15 minutes, and realized you get what you pay for. There's a reason Cubase costs $500. It's the little things. You realize that after you spend a few weeks with the program. Yeah it's got bugs. So does Sonar. So does Reaper. So does Logic. So does every one of 'em. I like the "Kumbaya" vibe of the Reaper community and the way it's distributed. But it's far from a pro app if you're doing mission critical stuff.
Cakewalk Forums - A Great Learning Resource For All Things Cakewalk!
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Steve Mac
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 02:26:04
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Who is Paul Slocum and why do we care if he's switching?
I guess, only to the extent that someone fairly dedicated to Sonar (15 years is pretty darn good) usually leaves only after a lot of thought. The fact that he hasn't contributed a lot of posts is really irrelevant, and a comment like the one above does come across as a bit snobby! I figured we are better than that. Instead of attacking Paul, maybe we should all be looking at programs like Reaper, and then demanding of Cakewalk that it provide tools and ulities other programs (such as Reaper) put together. From what I've read about Reaper, it has some features forum members have been requesting, in some cases for a long time. I think the comment above about the "number crunchers" paying attention is a good one. $.025
post edited by Steve Mac - 2009/09/25 02:32:37
Steve McNamara ~~ SignatureTunes Studios~~ SoundClick avatar courtesy of my son
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Marah
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 02:32:49
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daveny5
Because if it sounds too good to be true, then it is. All the open source products sound great, but then when you go to use them, they're not so great. Compare the Open Office versus Microsoft Office. The basic functions are there, but the advanced functions are not. There's no pivot tables in the spreadsheets. Linux was going to save the world against the abuses of Microsoft. I installed Ubuntu on my spare computer and I can't even get the wheel on the mouse to work. Netbooks that were released with Linux operating systems didn't sell. People wanted Windows.
Daveny, I hate to disabuse you, but Reaper is not "open source." It makes available hooks (SDKs, if I'm not mistaken) into its insides, which lets users (who are so inclined) create 'extensions' with enhanced features and functions based on the core set. These are directly comparable to extensions in programs like Photoshop. It also supports a scripting language that lets a user (who is so inclined) make plugins of various sorts. Also, its rpp project files, the Reaper equivalent to Sonar's cwp, are plain text, to my eye visually similar to XML. This lets a user (if she's so inclined, as I've been on occasion) actually look at the project file for one reason or another, whether for trouble shooting or documentation purposes or for undulging your need for geekatude. These (and other) features give Reaper a kind of "openess" that contribute to the program's flexibility and and customizability, which for me contributes to its usability. But these things do not make Reaper "open source," or the kind of ickyness that "open source" can connote. Also, it's not necessary, in any way, to use these "programming" type tools to work in Reaper, any more than it's necessary to use CAL when working in Sonar (or would be if CAL was still supported.) For the record, I use some Reaper extension and also a couple of the more interesting "script" plugins, but strictly as a civilian... I've never programmed one and never will. (Though I DO use its macro/action functions extensively.)
post edited by Marah - 2009/09/25 03:08:42
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Marah
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 03:06:21
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Nick P << I downloaded Reaper, tried it for about 15 minutes, and realized you get what you pay for. >> Oh that's nice dear.  << There's a reason Cubase costs $500.>> The reason Cubase costs 500 dollars and the other "big boys" are in the same range is because they first appeared when DAW software was a niche category, with a relatively small pool of potential customers who had to pay the cover charge for entry to the club. Their product images and business models (and their design philosophies?) are thus (and still) tied to the era and market they came out of. That's why the big boys are dependent on users who see price as a measure of pro. (I wonder how much this forum software costs.)
post edited by Marah - 2009/09/25 03:10:26
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keith
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 03:27:10
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Marah
Their product images and business models (and their design philosophies?) are thus (and still) tied to the era and market they came out of. That's why the big boys are dependent on users who see price as a measure of pro.
Cakewalk # employees ~ 50? Cockos # employees ~ 5? Is that about right? Let's do a little math here... 5 x 10 = 50... 60 x 10 = 600... yeah, that sorta works out... If cakewalk set their top-line prices based on perception of "pro", then how come SONAR was $500 when cubase was $1000 and samplitude and logic weren't far behind? By your logic SONAR should have been going for $1000 around 2003-2006 just like everybody else.
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billruys
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 03:37:16
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Steve Mac
Instead of attacking Paul, maybe we should all be looking at programs like Reaper, and then demanding of Cakewalk that it provide tools and ulities other programs (such as Reaper) put together. From what I've read about Reaper, it has some features forum members have been requesting, in some cases for a long time.
I think the comment above about the "number crunchers" paying attention is a good one.
$.025
Oh yeah, great. Lets have every application have the exact same features. While we're at it, all cars should be the same shape and color and have the same specs. If they're all the same we won't have these arguments any more, right? God, these "my DAW is better than your DAW" arguments are such a waste of energy. Pick the tool that you are most comfortable with and use it. No matter which product you choose, understand that it won't be perfect - no such thing exists. Sonar will do some things better than Reaper. Reaper will do some things better than Sonar - that's why we have CHOICE. Telling me that the tool I choose is rubbish is offensive - don't do it. I personally really enjoy using Sonar and think it's a great product. It's upsetting to get shot down by the fanboys of other products on our own forums. I do not know enough about Reaper to know if it's good or bad, but even if I hated it, I would never dis the Reaper community by dumping on their forum. There are enough happy Reaper users to suggest that it's actually a great product - that's good. I play Pearl drums, because it's what I started with and I'm used to how the hardware works. I just can't imagine Pearl/Tama users have the kind of pointless battles that go on in the DAW arena.
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...wicked
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 03:44:07
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Marah
Also, its rpp project files, the Reaper equivalent to Sonar's cwp, are plain text, to my eye visually similar to XML. This lets a user (if she's so inclined, as I've been on occasion) actually look at the project file for one reason or another, whether for trouble shooting or documentation purposes or for undulging your need for geekatude.
Oh boy, don't tell CJ that. It'll blow his whole "it PLAYS the file!" theory to the four corners. ;-) There are some truly badass things about Reaper for sure. I think anyone who says a DAW "sucks" in this day and age is not being honest with themselves.
=========== The Fog People =========== Intel i7-4790 16GB RAM ASUS Z97 Roland OctaCapture Win10/64 SONAR Platinum 64-bit billions VSTs, some of which work
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cmusicmaker
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 04:23:26
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Marah
Nick P
<< There's a reason Cubase costs $500.>>
The reason Cubase costs 500 dollars and the other "big boys" are in the same range is because they first appeared when DAW software was a niche category, with a relatively small pool of potential customers who had to pay the cover charge for entry to the club.
Their product images and business models (and their design philosophies?) are thus (and still) tied to the era and market they came out of. That's why the big boys are dependent on users who see price as a measure of pro.
Totally agree. Without a doubt a products price does not always equate to something better. The DAW market is going through some changes and the perception of what constitutes VFM is also changing. But I guess if someone thinks any app is worth £££ then (for them) I guess it really is. For others they feel they can get a better ROI by paying less and perhaps getting more for less with another host. Looking at the number of Sonar users on the Reaper forum I think Cakewalk have had their fair share of losses in that area of choice. Part of the territory I guess.
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fitzj
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 04:37:07
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Paul Slocum
I've been using Sonar for probably about 15 years, since it was Cakewalk 3.0 on Windows 3.1, but I've finally made the switch to Reaper. The thing that really got me was that Sonar jumped to version 8 and abandoned fixing substantial bugs in 7, requiring me to pay if I wanted bugs fixed that affected me every time I was working. In addition, Sonar's interface keeps getting more clumsy. It feels like design decisions at Cakewalk are now made by programmers and the marketing department, not musicians or user experience experts.
Reaper isn't perfect, and the video support is currently almost unusable so it's not good for post, but they claim that video will be working soon (and video support is pretty poor on Sonar anyway). But I'm finishing up my first commercial project in Reaper, and the user interface feel is great, it's faster and more stable than Sonar for me, and has already improved my workflow even though I'm still learning some stuff. In addition, it runs on Windows 32 and 64, Mac, and Linux, and it doesn't use copy protection!
l8r cakewalk! ;o(
GOODBYE
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Rustic Raf
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 04:55:22
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billruys
Steve Mac
Instead of attacking Paul, maybe we should all be looking at programs like Reaper, and then demanding of Cakewalk that it provide tools and ulities other programs (such as Reaper) put together. From what I've read about Reaper, it has some features forum members have been requesting, in some cases for a long time.
I think the comment above about the "number crunchers" paying attention is a good one.
$.025
Oh yeah, great. Lets have every application have the exact same features. While we're at it, all cars should be the same shape and color and have the same specs. If they're all the same we won't have these arguments any more, right?
God, these "my DAW is better than your DAW" arguments are such a waste of energy. Pick the tool that you are most comfortable with and use it. No matter which product you choose, understand that it won't be perfect - no such thing exists.
Sonar will do some things better than Reaper. Reaper will do some things better than Sonar - that's why we have CHOICE. Telling me that the tool I choose is rubbish is offensive - don't do it.
I personally really enjoy using Sonar and think it's a great product. It's upsetting to get shot down by the fanboys of other products on our own forums. I do not know enough about Reaper to know if it's good or bad, but even if I hated it, I would never dis the Reaper community by dumping on their forum. There are enough happy Reaper users to suggest that it's actually a great product - that's good.
I play Pearl drums, because it's what I started with and I'm used to how the hardware works. I just can't imagine Pearl/Tama users have the kind of pointless battles that go on in the DAW arena.
Hi billruys, Steve Mac is spot on ! Yes, lets do look at other DAWs and see what good features they have implemented that would make our life as Sonar users more easy. Case in point: Reapers excellent automation envelope implementation. I wish Sonar had some of these already built in. Things like: envelopes lanes and node simplification to name but two. If Cakewalk had stayed with their heads buried in the sand we would never see Sonar as it is now: a state of the art software. However, with attitude like yours, Sonar would still probably be behind the times. It is not, as all manufacturers look at each others products and new developments, and if they see fit, they do implement their versions of these new ideas. They also listen to the user base, and users look at other products. It's a beautiful circle, as everyone benefits. Don't you see that ? Do you really get offended if somebody says your chosen softarwe is rubbish ? Come on, grow up! Let them. Perhpas you need to detach yourself emotionally from this, and let others who call for new features to be implemented (features that may be in use in other software) do their calling. You on the other hand only stand to benefit from this, as any new feature in Sonar might also benefit your workflow as well. I certainly would welcome a more streamlined automation envelope design and editing, for example, becouse the current implementation is rubbish ( yes, don't get offended). Think about it. Peace.
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Marah
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 06:38:43
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vrooom
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 06:47:31
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I like Sonar and Sonar likes me. I don't mind putting my hand in my pocket to buy a quality product. I tried Reaper once and it just didn't work well for me. However, if I were to switch to another DAW because of whatever reasons would I come on here to announce my defection? No. Life is too short for that.
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joenj07087
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 07:08:45
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well I tried Cubase for a while and it was like trying to understand Chinese for me, so I left it, I should have posted a "I'm living" statement....lol...to me Sonar is so much user friendly, I will never leave..! lol
APPLE IMAC 27" 2.93 GHz INTEL QUAD CORE i7 running windows 7 with PARALLELS DESKTOP SONARX1
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vocalid
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 07:31:12
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vrooom
I like Sonar and Sonar likes me. I don't mind putting my hand in my pocket to buy a quality product. I tried Reaper once and it just didn't work well for me. However, if I were to switch to another DAW because of whatever reasons would I come on here to announce my defection? No. Life is too short for that.
Then why waste your time here? ;)
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Blades
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 09:18:13
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On people leaving Sonar/the forum:
To each his/her own. I've looked at and tried various software apps over the years as well as completely different hardware viewpoints (was using SW1000/DSPFactory for a long time) and find the benefits in each that work best for me, identify those that don't, and decide accordingly. The investment I have in Cakewalk software is money and time. I would be hard pressed to be able to evaluate any other software application to the degree I understand how Sonar works and would be likely to be frustrated by workflow on the way to actually using the software enough to expose its inadequacies.
On telling us about it:
Sometimes these posts can be useful and their usefulness is generally related to the number of posts and/or the "joined" date of the user. A user with 3 posts all in that thread who signed up for the forum a week ago is obviously a different case from the OP. I think people just get tired of the pettiness of those who are switching who never paid for Sonar anyway and are making some big deal about it as if they had any skin in the game to begin with. Again, the OP doesn't seem to be in this category. But if you are going to go to the trouble of posting, at least include something constructive. Yes, we all know there have been bugs around, features that were started but never seem done, and other things, but why not be specific. Having looked at demos and youtube video demonstrations of Reaper, I've yet to discover why I'd want to switch. Again to each his/her own, but the right click everything with endless menus of choices doesn't really seem intuitive or work-flow centered. Seems very IT and clinical, rather than creative. I believe this is why some people want a prettier UI for Sonar - artsy pretty stuff tends to help you be creative, while selecting items from text menus does not. Just an opinion.
On software with quick updates:
Be careful what you wish for here. As many people as think Cakewalk has a dev cycle that's too fast and fosters the existence of bugs, Reaper gets updated on a FAR more regular basis. Weekly builds? Not sure, but I know it's one of the things that is touted. Unfortunately this makes for a constant bug hunt and a real inability to lock down exactly which combination of changes happened to cripple your DAW. Just because an application is updated frequently towards the needs of the users doesn't necessarily mean it is done in a way that doesn't create other bugs. It simply can't be done. Just a thought.
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krizrox
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 09:31:21
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Even I have to chime in. I cross-graded over to Samplitude a few years ago. What I immediately found out was that Samplitude wasn't perfect either. I've looked at most of the other contenders. I came to the conclusion that each of these programs has their own strengths and weaknesses. Pick one or two and then leverage the best of each program instead of focusing on the negative bits. You'll drive yourself silly worrying about this stuff. I don't think there will ever be software this complex that works 100% perfectly for everyone in the world. Impossible- given the infinite hardware variables that exist.
btw - in the past few months I've gotten some clients that have come to me from other studios in the area. Came to me out of frustration really. They were working in studios that were using these Mackie/Tascam 24 channel digital recording decks. You know - those rack-mount hard drive units. You can connect a PC up to them and do a lot of the same editing that you can do with a traditional PC DAW although they are a little limited in certian ways. Turns out they aren't any more stable than a regular desktop PC. Worse actually. I had one client who lost like 4 hours of work on one of those things. And don't get me started on the porta-studios.
Larry Kriz www.LnLRecording.com www.myspace.com/lnlrecording Sonar PE 8.5, Samplitude Pro 11, Sonic Core Scope Professional/XTC, A16 Ultra AD/DA, Intel DG965RY MOBO, Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4GHz processor, XFX GeForce 7300 GT PCIe video card, Barracuda 750 & 320GB SATA drives, 4GB DDR Ram, Plextor DVD/CD-R burner.
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Jonbouy
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 09:58:15
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Glennbo
bapu
I used it on my laptop and my desktop (dedicated) DAW about a dozen times each. Not one failure. Granted only in small bits.
Glenbo uses it as his main DAW, all the time without fail.
So, it's back to the "CJism": it's prolly your config or drivers.
Again, I use SONAR 8.5.1 as of a few days ago. I'm not sellin' Reaper.
You get the level headed post award of the day Bapu!
Didn't Frankenstien's monster have a level head too?.... 
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Glennbo
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 10:00:46
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Blades
On software with quick updates:
Be careful what you wish for here. As many people as think Cakewalk has a dev cycle that's too fast and fosters the existence of bugs, Reaper gets updated on a FAR more regular basis. Weekly builds? Not sure, but I know it's one of the things that is touted. Unfortunately this makes for a constant bug hunt and a real inability to lock down exactly which combination of changes happened to cripple your DAW. Just because an application is updated frequently towards the needs of the users doesn't necessarily mean it is done in a way that doesn't create other bugs. It simply can't be done. Just a thought.
You know, that sounds like it should make sense, but after a year and a half and in the vicinity of 35 updates and one major version upgrade, I've only seen twice when they released anything with a BIG glaring bug, and both times I've seen it, they literally yanked the update within hours and replaced it with a corrected one that didn't have whatever the BIG bug was. I believe that their policy of having *public* beta tests where they can flush out problems with the end users before they buy it makes for less buggy actual releases. I *never* hesitate to install whatever the newest, latest, greatest version they come out with, and I never have to do things like delete .ini files, or registry keys, or any hand tweaking. I just install on top of the last version, and in literally less than one minute, I'm updated.
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pollux
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 10:55:39
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Rustic Raf
Hi billruys,
Case in point: Reapers excellent automation envelope implementation. I wish Sonar had some of these already built in. Things like: envelopes lanes and node simplification to name but two.
Reaper's envelope lanes are nice, and useful when you draw them by hand.. but when you try to record automation using a control surface or a keyboard it's a nightmare because it generates thousands of points, even when you don't touch the controller. These points cannot be trimmed down, so when you want to fine tune it with the mouse, you first have to manually erase the extra points, and pray nothing weird happens then. The "trim envelope points" FR has been open like forever, and it hasn't receive a single comment from the devs.
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Steve Mac
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 10:57:16
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billruys
Steve Mac
Instead of attacking Paul, maybe we should all be looking at programs like Reaper, and then demanding of Cakewalk that it provide tools and ulities other programs (such as Reaper) put together. From what I've read about Reaper, it has some features forum members have been requesting, in some cases for a long time.
I think the comment above about the "number crunchers" paying attention is a good one.
$.025
Oh yeah, great. Lets have every application have the exact same features. While we're at it, all cars should be the same shape and color and have the same specs. If they're all the same we won't have these arguments any more, right?
God, these "my DAW is better than your DAW" arguments are such a waste of energy.
This rant just seems to prove my earlier point about arrogant responses to users -- LONG-time users -- who are becoming frustrated with Sonar and the seeming ease with which other programs are implementing the changes forum members are requesting. Nowhere did I say that "every application should have the exact same features", dude! But from what I have read, Reaper has done a better job of implementing features we've asked for, for a long time. I.e., it shouldn't be that hard. So take an objective look at what the OP was talking about. Seriously, it is disheartening to see the bad attitude that erupts from some forum members whenever a long-time and loyal Sonarite (actually, Pro-Audio-ite with Paul, back to version 3!) finally gives up. Maybe, just maybe, there's a problem with bloated code. . . . Just sayin'
Steve McNamara ~~ SignatureTunes Studios~~ SoundClick avatar courtesy of my son
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Fret Wizz
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 11:35:16
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dbmusic
"....There are a lot of old Sonar users over at the Reaper forum these days...me being one of them...."
Regards,
DB
How many ex SONAR users on the Reaper forum compared to current SONAR users to this forum? Any idea?
post edited by Fret Wizz - 2009/09/25 11:38:28
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MatsonMusicBox
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 11:44:12
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pollux
Rustic Raf
Hi billruys,
Case in point: Reapers excellent automation envelope implementation. I wish Sonar had some of these already built in. Things like: envelopes lanes and node simplification to name but two.
Reaper's envelope lanes are nice, and useful when you draw them by hand.. but when you try to record automation using a control surface or a keyboard it's a nightmare because it generates thousands of points, even when you don't touch the controller. These points cannot be trimmed down, so when you want to fine tune it with the mouse, you first have to manually erase the extra points, and pray nothing weird happens then.
The "trim envelope points" FR has been open like forever, and it hasn't receive a single comment from the devs.
Now see - that is just the kind of info I want as I use Mackie MCU and start a lot of envelopes that way! See - a + for SOANR here. If Cake would just fix a few things in the envelopes, most of this Reaper discussion would go away.
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pollux
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 11:53:19
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MatsonMusicBox
pollux
Rustic Raf
Hi billruys,
Case in point: Reapers excellent automation envelope implementation. I wish Sonar had some of these already built in. Things like: envelopes lanes and node simplification to name but two.
Reaper's envelope lanes are nice, and useful when you draw them by hand.. but when you try to record automation using a control surface or a keyboard it's a nightmare because it generates thousands of points, even when you don't touch the controller. These points cannot be trimmed down, so when you want to fine tune it with the mouse, you first have to manually erase the extra points, and pray nothing weird happens then.
The "trim envelope points" FR has been open like forever, and it hasn't receive a single comment from the devs.
Now see - that is just the kind of info I want as I use Mackie MCU and start a lot of envelopes that way! See - a + for SOANR here. If Cake would just fix a few things in the envelopes, most of this Reaper discussion would go away.
If you use a MCU, then you'll feel very frustrated with Reaper. The stock support for the MCU is very basic (like faders, pan, and some buttons), and the devs have no intention of improving it. A forum member called Klinke wrote an extension for the plugin adding quite some functions, according to his needs (he stated it in the first post and was kind enough to share his work.. not bashing him). He recently added support for controlling sends, and there is still no plugin control support. The Mackie C4 is not supported at all. (in fact only Sonar, Logic and Tracktion support it)
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subtlearts
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 11:58:39
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... If Cake would just fix a few things in the envelopes, most of this Reaper discussion would go away. ... that would make me rather happy. Partly because it would be fixed (which it really needs to be) but mostly for the other reason.
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keith
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 12:04:27
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MatsonMusicBox
If Cake would just fix a few things in the envelopes, most of this Reaper discussion would go away.
Which is exactly what makes it all more than a little ridiculous, In My Humble Opinion... Fact is, if you went to the Reaper forum and extracted a list of known issues, long-standing bugs, and ignored feature requests, did the same for SONAR, then removed all references to "SONAR" and "Reaper" from both lists, somebody who didn't have a priori knowledge wouldn't be able to tell the apps apart...
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Glennbo
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 12:08:37
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Fret Wizz
dbmusic
"....There are a lot of old Sonar users over at the Reaper forum these days...me being one of them...."
Regards,
DB
How many ex SONAR users on the Reaper forum compared to current SONAR users to this forum?
Any idea?
How many ex REAPER users are on the Sonar forum?
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DaneStewart
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 12:46:56
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REAPER is a great low-cost tool that does a couple of things SONAR doesn't.
Which is why everyone should keep it on their system as a tool just like an audio editor.
REAPER is so cheap you don't "Switch" to it. You just add it and use it.
Duh.
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Robin Kelly [Roland]
Genuinely Swell Guy
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Re:Switching to Reaper
2009/09/25 12:47:12
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Just looking at the post I am not seeing much related to SONAR. Totally not opposed to the thread but it belongs in the software forum since this thread is focused on non-Cakewalk software.
Robin
That's my blog Omnia illa et ante fiebant, Omnia illa et rursus fient.
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