TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box?

hi scott - I've never heard of a problem like this.  how about if you send me your MIDI files that you're talking about - the ones with extreme pitch bends and I'll try it out here and see if I can see any reason that this would happen.  I have BIAB 2010 and MC5 also.

I have a 64 bit Windows 7 OS and I have been working with TTS-1 and ForteDXi synths in Real Band for a month trying to correct problems I reported in a earlier post in this thread.  I now believe it is likely that the TTS has a problem recognizing bank changes in midi files.  It seems like almost any bank change can cause an irregularity in the playback of the file AND in subsequent files - at least in my 64-bit W7 system.  For example, a file had an MSB: 1 entered on a drum channel.  The drums in the next file played were changed to a piano.  In another file bank changes on four channels resulted in three of the channels sounding as pianos and the fourth sounding as a fretting sound - the originally set sounds were two guitars, a bass, and strings.  When I deleted the bank changes in most cases the irregularities disappeared and subsequent files also functioned properly.  In a few files, usually GM2 files, with almost all channels containing bank changes, I was not able to solve the problems - until I exited the virtual synths and played the files with the midi mapper.  If the problem on the original file is not corrected in some way it seems that every successively opened file with the same synth installed has instrument changes - usually to piano sounds - like Program 1 was a default if the synth did not recognize the bank change.
So far the only person who has duplicated these problems played the file I forwarded him on his XP system with the TTS and it was fine, but when he changed to the midi mapper and MME the distortions in sound occurred.
ForteDXi admittedly does not recognize all bank changes (mostly effect-like sounds I understand, e.g., thunder) but I have not played a lot of files through Forte so I don't know the extent of the problem there.  Another strange occurrence is that when the sounds in a file played through the TTS has bank change problems it can sometimes be corrected by switching to the Forte.  Then when you switch back to the TTS, on the same file, the problem is sometimes corrected - like there has been a reset of the instruments.
The sound on the TTS also seems so intense that sometimes high pitched sounds, like hung notes, develop and actually bleed over into the next file if there are inadequate resets at the end and beginning of files.  The absence of a zero entry on the end of pitch bend strings also appears to cause problems.
I have been working through these problems one at a time for a month and am learning to live with them - usually by limiting or deleting bank changes or switching to the MME and midi mapper as a last resort.  I do not intend to post anymore about the topics as no one else appears to be experiencing them right now and the PG staff apparently has not been able to replicate the problems.  I have reported them to Cakewalk/TTS and to the Forte people.  But should someone else bump into the same or similar problems I would be happy to discuss them further.  I hope no one does.  I hope it is a set of problems somehow unique to my system or files.  However, the problems have certainly undermined my confidence in my back-up music for performances and it may take some time to restore.   :)

oh , I missed that - you're using it in RB.

scott, I'm really not sure this is a problem with TTS-1.  TTS-1 works fine, no problems with patch changes or bad sound in sonar/mc5 in win7x64 platforms.  I think this is a problem with BIAB/RB.  it may not be sending the correct data under win7x64.  not sure why it would be different under xp or other 32bit systems, but this behavior is only being exhibited in BIAB/RB, so the problem lies there somehow.

Reece,
As the administrator for this forum, and therefore as a kind of cakewalk representative, can you contact someone in Cakewalk support and have them review my msg's and actually contact PG Music if necessary (I have been talking to Kent in PG Support), and see if they can come up with a solution to these problems?
Thanks, Scott

LOL!  Hey, Scott, actually, I'm not an admin of the forum!  I'm just a user!  I don't even have admin priviliges or you can bet that I'd be zapping some people!!!

However, I do have some cakewalk contacts that I could point to this thread or could give you one of their emails and let you contact them directly.

I do believe you have a problem with TTS-1, I don't doubt that at all, but I really think this is a PG Music implementation problem myself.  TTS-1 is flawless in cakewalk products on any platform (or we'd be hearing a lot more noise from the user base! - and I've spoken directly with some of the users of win7x64 to further verify).  My guess is that there's a problem with the way RB does the patch changes that is causing a problem.

I wish I had a win7x64 machine to test this myself on and help confirm your problems, but I've stuck with good ol' winxp for my music machine for a number of reasons (problems like you're having is one headache I don't need and I'm sure you don't either!).

I'll tell one of my cake contacts to take a look at this thread and see if he can help any.

Ah, I didn't know you had received a response from cake.  I did send Willy an email, but if you've already got a response and reference number then he might just let whichever tech has the ticket continue to look at it.

ah, ok.  well, telling Willy will probably at least get some attention to it.

I just found a new thread on the PG Forums where there are many messages from people having trouble with bank changes, but none of them appear to involve TTS.  I posted there about my problems and hope that brings some positive input.  At least one of the posters had already e-mailed Peter Gammons about the problems he had experienced and PG Music is apparently looking into it.

that's actually really good news!  if others are having similar problems then it's likely repeatable and can get fixed! 

hey trap... you might want to go back and edit that post with the phone number and the customer ID and other sensative data in it.... if you want to send a phone number to someone..... best to use email or the private messaging PM option.... just click a user's name in the avatar area.... you can access PM from there.....

Scott i went back and re-read your post at PG. 2 questions.  1. Do you use the laptop for performance? and 2. Have you tried the synthfont program raintalk mentioned over there with a GM sound set in it?

Regarding 1. If you use the laptop i suggest moving toward a external sound source and thus getting the synth function outside the computer, like a ketron unit. Regarding 2. I tried this and it was pretty decent, and there is a few real goood sets out there.

Seems like most of the folks at PG that play live use external hardware synths. Besides the benefit above it also take a huge strain off the laptop since al synth load is not internal.

well, yes, true, GM itself doesn't have banks, but General MIDI 2 does.  and TTS-1 is a GM2 softsynth.  MC and BIAB are both compliant with GM2, so I'm not sure your statement is entirely correct here when you say that a GM synth will ignore the banks because we're not talking about a GM synth, we're talking about a GM2 synth and it does not ignore banks.

Now if you do want to use banks, and your Synth responds to banks, then you HAVE TO know which instrument corresponds to the Bank and to the program number you want to sound...No way around that, because banks are used differently by different Synth makers..Korg, Proteus, Yamaha use banks as they want, so banked instruments for one is not guaranteed to be the same as for another synth.

I'm not sure you understand the problem he's having.  he's using Real Band by PG music (basically the same thing as Band in a Box).  it is the HOST and TTS-1 is the softsynth being used for the MIDI data.  the MIDI data is sent to TTS-1 (which is a GM2 softsynth) and TTS-1 will make the sounds on his computer speakers.  it doesn't have anything to do with hardware synths, the MIDI data is generated by the program and sent to TTS-1.  the host and the MIDI data that's created should respond to GM2 banks and patches.

Beagle


well, yes, true, GM itself doesn't have banks, but General MIDI 2 does.  and TTS-1 is a GM2 softsynth.  MC and BIAB are both compliant with GM2, so I'm not sure your statement is entirely correct here when you say that a GM synth will ignore the banks because we're not talking about a GM synth, we're talking about a GM2 synth and it does not ignore banks.

Now if you do want to use banks, and your Synth responds to banks, then you HAVE TO know which instrument corresponds to the Bank and to the program number you want to sound...No way around that, because banks are used differently by different Synth makers..Korg, Proteus, Yamaha use banks as they want, so banked instruments for one is not guaranteed to be the same as for another synth.

I'm not sure you understand the problem he's having.  he's using Real Band by PG music (basically the same thing as Band in a Box).  it is the HOST and TTS-1 is the softsynth being used for the MIDI data.  the MIDI data is sent to TTS-1 (which is a GM2 softsynth) and TTS-1 will make the sounds on his computer speakers.  it doesn't have anything to do with hardware synths, the MIDI data is generated by the program and sent to TTS-1.  the host and the MIDI data that's created should respond to GM2 banks and patches.

Beagle,

1. If the TTS1 does not have a match to bank it should ignore the Bank Number, same as for GM.

2. I have Real Band, and all the PG Music softwares, up to last year. Real Tracks are not MIDI, though. Please tell me which part it is that you think that I don't understand on hardware and soft synths and MIDI data, so I can then understand what you mean.

3. The GM2 voices are NOT all of the voices that the GM2 can handle. For instance, like for Patch#1 there are only 3 banks, out of 128 possible defines. So it is important to know what voice one is really after, because compatible does not mean that some synth has more, and in that "more" they can put any thing they want.

4. True, the device "should" respond to the data. But if the data does not represent what one wants, the wrong response will be heard "through the speakers".

5. Traphill says that if he gets rid of the bank numbers, then TTS1 plays the file OK. So the problem obviously is in the Bank Numbers being used, which is my suggestion, and no more. And if he is using bank numbers he needs to check the TTS instrument list to make sure they match what he wants. He probably is using bank numbers for anoter system or the wrong MSB, or something like that.

I don't have anything else to add.

NoKey
Beagle,

1. If the TTS1 does not have a match to bank it should ignore the Bank Number, same as for GM.

But it does have a match to bank.  didn't you say you don't have TTS-1?  How do you know it doesn't have banks if you don't have it?

2. I have Real Band, and all the PG Music softwares, up to last year. Real Tracks are not MIDI, though. Please tell me which part it is that you think that I don't understand on hardware and soft synths and MIDI data, so I can then understand what you mean.

I know Real Tracks are not MIDI, I also have BIAB/RB.  But he's not having a problem with Real Tracks, he's having a problem with TTS-1 as the output of his MIDI.  I don't see where the OP mentioned using Real Tracks at all for this problem.

3. The GM2 voices are NOT all of the voices that the GM2 can handle. For instance, like for Patch#1 there are only 3 banks, out of 128 possible defines. So it is important to know what voice one is really after, because compatible does not mean that some synth has more, and in that "more" they can put any thing they want.

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand you mean here.  GM2 is up to 16384 banks with 128 voices in each bank possible.  but TTS-1 is specifically defined.  it has 16 banks with 5 of them user definable.  the user definable ones are defaulted to Piano I until they are saved as something different.  I'm really not following what you mean, tho, by 3 banks available for "Patch #1" out of 128 possible defines.  In TTS-1 you should be able to choose from any of those 16 banks with 128 possible defines from each one (not each bank is filled with 128 patches, tho).

4. True, the device "should" respond to the data. But if the data does not represent what one wants, the wrong response will be heard "through the speakers".

I agree and I think this is the root of the problem.  I think that the host is not correlating the MIDI data correctly when sent to TTS-1 when the banks are present in the data.

5. Traphill says that if he gets rid of the bank numbers, then TTS1 plays the file OK. So the problem obviously is in the Bank Numbers being used, which is my suggestion, and no more. And if he is using bank numbers he needs to check the TTS instrument list to make sure they match what he wants. He probably is using bank numbers for anoter system or the wrong MSB, or something like that.

As I said above, I think RB is interpreting the bank numbers incorrectly for TTS-1 for whatever reason when it sends them to TTS-1, not that the user is setting the bank numbers incorrectly, although I'm sure that could be possible, but IMO would be unlikely since you have to choose the bank numbers from a list as defined by the host (which in turn is pulled from TTS-1's info) instead of just setting them to whatever you want.

I don't have anything else to add.

I really am not trying to make you mad or discredit you.  I really want to help the OP with his problem.  If I have offended you then I apologize.

Boy, do I want to thank you ALL!  You have helped me learn a lot.  But Andrew, on the PG Music Tech Support Staff appears to have solved the problem.  Let me do my best to explain it simply - because I am not knowledgeable enough to explain it in the best technical terms.
 
Essentially the TTS does not change automatically from GM2 to GS mode when a SysEx msg is sent (my external SD-20 does).  Roland says soft synths do not recognize any SysEx msgs.  When Real Band opens a midi file it usually (according to Andrew) strips the bank change controllers from the event list and puts the information in the patch dialog area (altho sometimes some MSB or LSB contollers are not stripped and remain in the event list).  TTS is by default in the GM2 mode (although you can manually change it to GS, etc). 
 
So, improper or incomplete bank change settings in the midi files can cause the TTS to go to its default settings with certain MSB contoller numbers (other than 120 for drums and 121 for all other instruments).  The default settings in TTS in this situation are PC 1 (piano) -unless you have manually changed it to something else.  So your instrument can be automatically changed to a piano or, ocassionally, something else, by the TTS when it gets an improper bank change controller.
 
So I need to go back into all the files and make sure I am getting the right bank change msgs to the TTS.  I have list of all the GS and GM2 bank change possiblities.  I suppose that is all as clear as mud!  Sorry.
 
As to the possibility of pitch changes distorting sounds, the TTS help file says if you have sound troubles with the TTS turn down the volume.  I initially had my lappy sound set to 100%, but I have turned it down.  Andrew, at PG Music says about the only problem people have with pitch bend is failing to enter a zero at the end of the pitch bend strings.  I found many such situations in the midi files I have.  It can lead to the bleeding of sound into the next file played.  Of course, if there is an improper bank change msg on a channel with pitch bend you can get unusual results.
 
Rob, I have not tried the raintalk synth, but I will look for it.
 
Robert, I first got paid for singing in El Paso.  I have lived there three times and in Mineral Wells, San Antonio, Corpus, and Houston.  I worked in Colorado Springs for two years singing for a company from Austin, The Trail Dust Steak House.  I love Texas.
 
I also love western North Carolina, where my wife's parents were born, and where we retired.  So thanks to all the help from North Caolinians Herb, Greg, and others.
 
Herb, I made the edits you suggested.  Thank you.
 
Thanks to No Key for the insights and advice!
 
A special thanks to Beagle for really steering me along as I tried to find answers to the problems!
 
I have a lot of work ahead but the TTS is sounding better and I have a plan and a much better understand of how to solve the problems so I can get back to just making music - thanks in large part to each of you who have contributed.
 
I am sure this will not be my last problem but I now feel like I have a number of friends who are willing to help overcome whatever the problem might be!  You can't beat that!
 
Thank you all!  Scott 

just to clarify:  TTS-1 does allow drums on any of the 16 channels.  as long as you set the bank and patch correctly it will work fine on any channel.  I just did a test project to verify before I posted.  I have the MIDI tracks' properties set to TTS-1 for output, Channel 1, bank 15360-Preset Rhythm, Patch = Standard Set.  I then put some kick notes into the MIDI track and played the project.  it works fine.

 I mostly use Discrete drum loops for now, but I do add different drum sounds sometimes mixed in with those loops, I do it using TTS-1 and you are right, you can add drums on any of the 16 channels because I do that all the time.

Bobby

Traphillman,

Good to hear you are on your way, and wish you all the best.

I will mention something that might apply when checking and  changing those files: Once a Bank-Change is made, all Program# Patches calls will apply to THAT bank, that's kind of conventional, but in a MIDI file, due to distance from a Patch change to subsequent Patch changes, it can be hard to trouble shoot...This also means that if you do change a voice at one point by changing both Bank and Voice, you'd be also affecting SUBSEQUENT voices that you may not want to. Of course, this applies on each MIDI channel separately, so a Bank change remains current for that MIDI channel untill another Bank change in it takes place.