benjamincharles
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Re:Telll us more...
2010/12/17 15:02:37
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Freddie H
Everyone knows that all synth and EQ:s in LOGIC has a overall very harsh plastic distinctive sound.
Really? Even if it were true, do you know why they sound harsh? I don't know if 'everyone' would say they are harsh and plastic sounding. I know many film composers who use the bundled FX all the time. And yes, in x86 environments.
post edited by benjamincharles - 2010/12/17 15:15:53
Basic info: Win7 32 bit, Sonar 8.5 PE, MaxMSP 5, MOTIF6,
EMU Proteus 1/2/3, ADAM A7, DAC1, Alphatrack
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Freddie H
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Re:Telll us more...
2010/12/17 15:53:20
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Rain
Freddie H
I'm was a huge LOGIC fan before i discover SONAR. USER since LOGIC 1 from Emagic time...
Someone talk about LOGIC plugins...
About LOGIC plugins LOGIC STUDIO 9. Everyone knows that all synth and EQ:s in LOGIC has a overall very harsh plastic distinctive sound.
Best Regards
Freddie
Freddie, maybe you can give the hype campaign a break. This is a Sonar forum. Most of the people here already use Sonar. Furthermore, assuming that most here are using PC as their platform of choice, there is no competition.
Logic's plug-ins and synths are as good as anything you'll get in Sonar. To be perfectly honest, some of the synths bundled w/ it are among my favorites. Their EQs are also quite good - I use them constantly. Furthermore, the only reason I mention Logic was to illustrate the common behavior.
It doesn't take anything away from Sonar.
I appreciate that you like Sonar that much and are highly enthusiastic about it, but frankly, statements like "everybody knows that..." just cannot be backed up. Just the opposite, as most of them are usually considered quite capable.
But this is your thread and you're entitled to say whatever you want.
That's cool. You know I'm using LOGIC in other STUDIOs. I use also Cubase 5, Nuendo 5 and Pro Tools 9 HD. I never said Logic is bad. Great GUI nice...nice comping... Its a pitty that's only on MAC. If you working professional with Mixing and producing you know all about this...----> harsh sound of EQ:s inside LOGIC. If you still don't believe, try the drum Mashine.. That would POP your ears out!  That's one thing all producers and mixing engineers argue about all the time during coffee breaks. Pro Tools VS LOGIC.  Best Regards Freddie
post edited by Freddie H - 2010/12/17 15:56:00
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Freddie H
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Re:Telll us more...
2010/12/17 15:57:31
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benjamincharles
Freddie H
Everyone knows that all synth and EQ:s in LOGIC has a overall very harsh plastic distinctive sound.
Really? Even if it were true, do you know why they sound harsh?
I don't know if 'everyone' would say they are harsh and plastic sounding. I know many film composers who use the bundled FX all the time.
And yes, in x86 environments.
By the way...Logic 9.1 and up is x64...
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Freddie H
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jon busticle
So what are the differences between the saturation types 1 and 2? That's the only question that hasn't been answered to any degree at all. I do agree that if CAKE tells us exactly what it's emulating, people will start drawing direct comparisons, however, if that is the case 100%, then why name the comps "76" and "4k"? Im gathering (from the answers i've gotten here) that the EQ modes differ ONLY in their Q relationships, and in no other way whatsoever. True? Thanks to everyone so far...Please do tell about the Sat modes
Type 1 more aggressive sound. "TUBE" Good for Guitar, bass Type 2 smooth...Twin Tube, overall track Tube warm. (Default MODE) Best Regards Freddie
post edited by Freddie H - 2010/12/18 07:56:14
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benjamincharles
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Re:Telll us more...
2010/12/17 16:05:10
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By the way...Logic 9.1 and up is x64...
Well then, maybe they were using Logic 5 :)
Basic info: Win7 32 bit, Sonar 8.5 PE, MaxMSP 5, MOTIF6,
EMU Proteus 1/2/3, ADAM A7, DAC1, Alphatrack
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Freddie H
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Re:Telll us more...
2010/12/17 16:08:18
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Logic 5.5.1 are the last one that work on PC, I think 1996. I have that version myself and the KEY. Don't use it today of course. Then Emagic were sold to APPLE. After that no more PC version on LOGIC.  Best Regards Freddie
post edited by Freddie H - 2010/12/17 16:09:47
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benjamincharles
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Re:Telll us more...
2010/12/17 16:09:33
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Right.
So anyway,
The ProChannel looks sweet!
Basic info: Win7 32 bit, Sonar 8.5 PE, MaxMSP 5, MOTIF6,
EMU Proteus 1/2/3, ADAM A7, DAC1, Alphatrack
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Freddie H
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Re:Telll us more...
2010/12/17 16:10:58
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benjamincharles
Right.
So anyway,
The ProChannel looks sweet!
Yes its sad there no DEMO out on SONAR X1 so everyone can try it... Have a great day Benjamin!  Best Regards Freddie
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Rain
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Re:Telll us more...
2010/12/17 16:49:35
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Freddie H
That's cool. You know I'm using LOGIC in other STUDIOs. I use also Cubase 5, Nuendo 5 and Pro Tools 9 HD. I never said Logic is bad. Great GUI nice...nice comping...
Its a pitty that's only on MAC. If you working professional with Mixing and producing you know all about this...----> harsh sound of EQ:s inside LOGIC. If you still don't believe, try the drum Mashine.. That would POP your ears out! That's one thing all producers and mixing engineers argue about all the time during coffee breaks. Pro Tools VS LOGIC.
Best Regards
Freddie
Hmmm, I don't know. One of the (many) reasons I opted for my new set up (though I'm still using Sonar on PC) is that I've had to re-orient my "business" and went from working independently to having to collaborate, and most of the guys I have to deal w/ use Logic. Since I was already familiar w/ it, the decision was simple. As anal as I can be with EQ's and compressors, I try to remain humble about my own "expertise" - I've always thought of myself more as a songwriter/musician handling production duties due to limited budget and my own interest for those things. That being said, I think I have a decent set of ears, and I really don't find anything wrong w/ those plug-ins. So far, everything I've worked on was done solely w/ Logic's native set of plug-ins, and I can tell you that the other guys I work w/ also use them. extensively. Those fellows have access to outboard gear I can only dream of and do this on a much larger scale than I am. So it's not like they are stuck w/ this set of native plugs. Still they use them - A LOT. Frankly, I've heard the usual - they're not as good as UAD, or not as sweet as this Waves compressor or whatever... But people usually agree that in terms of native bundled plug-ins, they are quite decent. As for the instruments, the complains I'm aware of usually boil down to the fact that, unlike some others, the sound can seem a bit dry - but that's usually from people who drown their synths in reverb and chorus and expect that sort of sound wen they select a preset. But I'm not here to try to praise Logic. I mean, I could say the same thing about Sonar - though I tend to use more 3rd party more often because I've accumulated lots of them over the years.
post edited by Rain - 2010/12/17 16:53:12
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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Freddie H
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Re:Telll us more...
2010/12/19 12:38:06
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☄ Helpful
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Freddie H
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Re:Telll us more...
2010/12/19 12:50:56
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I think Pro Channel sounds better in the audio example. More warm and musical then SSL Duende. Its a matter of opinion of course. Of curse it matter how you tune The PRO Channel too. Don't forget that you can use PRO Channel Compressor in parallel compression that makes it even more musical. AFAIK you can't with SSL Duende software or hardware. External hardware SSL Compressor and side-chain thru hardware console work but not direct on busses on any SSL console. You can run it "old-school" way from Sends and bus of course. Perhaps I have missed something? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_compression Regards Freddie
post edited by Freddie H - 2010/12/19 12:53:54
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Zuma
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Re:Telll us more...
2010/12/19 14:02:00
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It's highly probable, due to TM infringement, they are not allowed to mention the gear/company(ies) that were modeled. This was true when EMU marketed their interfaces and mentioned the fact they used Digi's mastering grade converters... they can no longer mention Digi in reference to their "M" version interfaces... only that they use mastering grade converters. This may be the reason for the vague description of modeling for the ProChannel. Just a thought anyway.
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Anderton
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Here's a tip for hearing what the EQ does.
1. Clone a track and use Sonitus EQ in one and ProChannel in the other. Make sure the channel levels are matched.
2. Enter the same settings manually into each EQ.
3. Throw one channel out of phase.
4. Choose an EQ type and tweak the settings for the most cancellation (you need to do this individually for each EQ type).
What's left is the difference. Here's my take:
"Modern" is the most accurate, and is closest to the Sonitus. You can get almost complete cancellation.
"Pure" seems to be an attempt to design a more "musical" EQ, with a richer bass and smoother highs.
"Vintage" has more control interaction, and a midrange that sounds like Cakewalk was going for a more inductor-based design (E.g., Pultec).
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Freddie H
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Anderton
Here's a tip for hearing what the EQ does.
1. Clone a track and use Sonitus EQ in one and ProChannel in the other. Make sure the channel levels are matched.
2. Enter the same settings manually into each EQ.
3. Throw one channel out of phase.
4. Choose an EQ type and tweak the settings for the most cancellation (you need to do this individually for each EQ type).
What's left is the difference. Here's my take:
"Modern" is the most accurate, and is closest to the Sonitus. You can get almost complete cancellation.
"Pure" seems to be an attempt to design a more "musical" EQ, with a richer bass and smoother highs.
"Vintage" has more control interaction, and a midrange that sounds like Cakewalk was going for a more inductor-based design (E.g., Pultec).
Good points.. I think "Pure" sounds best and the new GLOSS button makes miracle ...
post edited by Freddie H - 2010/12/19 19:00:13
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jon busticle
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shtuff and thangs
2010/12/19 23:36:47
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I like where this is going...I agree that someone should do a blog on what Cakewalk "can't" say about their products (which i fully understand). My ears are telling me that Modern has a slightly more "musical" sound than pure, but that both sound similiar to each other, whereas Vintage sounds much different; but it's hard to compare apples to apples considering that the Q's change so drastically between models. I wonder if PURE is like the "constant-Q" setting in the VC-64....BTW- Sorry that I seem to only write run-on sentences!
post edited by jon busticle - 2010/12/19 23:38:07
Sonar/Cakewalk is merely a glorified toy for the consumer market. (This is what he said right before I maimed him)
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jon busticle
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Freddie H
jon busticle
So what are the differences between the saturation types 1 and 2? That's the only question that hasn't been answered to any degree at all. I do agree that if CAKE tells us exactly what it's emulating, people will start drawing direct comparisons, however, if that is the case 100%, then why name the comps "76" and "4k"? Im gathering (from the answers i've gotten here) that the EQ modes differ ONLY in their Q relationships, and in no other way whatsoever. True? Thanks to everyone so far...Please do tell about the Sat modes
Type 1 more aggressive sound. "TUBE" Good for Guitar, bass
Type 2 smooth...Twin Tube, overall track Tube warm. (Default MODE)
Best Regards
Freddie
So does that mean that sat type 1 is triode or class B while the sat 2 is Pentode or class A? sorry for my electronics ignorance, just trying to learn. In my few days of using X1 i find that sat2 has more high end and a little less grit/distortion.
Sonar/Cakewalk is merely a glorified toy for the consumer market. (This is what he said right before I maimed him)
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brundlefly
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1. Clone a track and use Sonitus EQ in one and ProChannel in the other. Make sure the channel levels are matched.
I did this on the Low Oct lead vocal track of the Cori Yarckin demo which used an aggressive EQ to kill the lows and boost the mids of a vocal sung an octave low to add that "gravelly" quality you hear on the chorus. I matched the frequencies, Qs and levels of ProChannel with Sonitus on the cloned track, and found that much more of the low-mid range was getting through on the Sonitus track. I had to raise the low shelf nearly a full octave from 310Hz to 600-620Hz to get a comparable sound. I found this degree of difference to be pretty surprising, given that the ProChannel was on the Pure setting, which I would expect to be the most similar to Sonitus. I don't know what this says other than that it shows you really need to mix with your ears when it comes to the coloration of different EQs.
post edited by brundlefly - 2010/12/20 00:12:40
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Anderton
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With what I've seen so far, the Modern EQ response is closest to the Sonitus.
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Freddie H
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jon busticle
Freddie H
jon busticle
So what are the differences between the saturation types 1 and 2? That's the only question that hasn't been answered to any degree at all. I do agree that if CAKE tells us exactly what it's emulating, people will start drawing direct comparisons, however, if that is the case 100%, then why name the comps "76" and "4k"? Im gathering (from the answers i've gotten here) that the EQ modes differ ONLY in their Q relationships, and in no other way whatsoever. True? Thanks to everyone so far...Please do tell about the Sat modes
Type 1 more aggressive sound. "TUBE" Good for Guitar, bass
Type 2 smooth...Twin Tube, overall track Tube warm. (Default MODE)
Best Regards
Freddie
So does that mean that sat type 1 is triode or class B while the sat 2 is Pentode or class A? sorry for my electronics ignorance, just trying to learn. In my few days of using X1 i find that sat2 has more high end and a little less grit/distortion.
No I think all are "Class A" products but I don't know? "Class A" are referred to what "quality type". You find it in Pre-amps, converters and Tubes.. Type 2 are more musical. You can use it for warm up a track and recording without it sounds distorted. 100% tube still it sounds not distorted. Type 1 are great too. If you add full saturation it will sound distorted like in electric guitar. 100% tube and it sounds distorted. Hope it helps! Regards Freddie
post edited by Freddie H - 2010/12/20 04:22:33
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Freddie H
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Anderton
With what I've seen so far, the Modern EQ response is closest to the Sonitus.
Yes perhaps Anderton, but about SONITUS? Does that EQ sounds best? Regards Freddie
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mistrbigg
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I am running windows 7 64 bit and sonar x1 32 bit.. and i have experienced exactly zero crashes so far going on a solid week of 8+ hour a day working. in fact i am playing a track right now.. downloading audio files online, and typing this up.
i dont know why people are having problems, i've been reading a lot of people are having crashes and freezes and such. maybe my system just likes x1.
i did uninstall all previous versions of anything cakewalk related however. dont know if thatd matter, i assume it could.
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mistrbigg
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BTw Freddie: sorry but class a doesnt mean NECESSARILY that the preamp sounds better.. it simply has top do with the circuit design.
"A Class A preamp is distinguished by its circuit design. In a Class A design current flows all the time, as opposed to Class B or Class AB. A Class A preamp will draw more current and run hotter, hence you'll see the preamp often in big 2 or even 3 rack space enclosures. While not as electrically efficient, they tend to have more detail sonically."
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Freddie H
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mistrbigg
BTw Freddie: sorry but class a doesnt mean NECESSARILY that the preamp sounds better.. it simply has top do with the circuit design.
"A Class A preamp is distinguished by its circuit design. In a Class A design current flows all the time, as opposed to Class B or Class AB. A Class A preamp will draw more current and run hotter, hence you'll see the preamp often in big 2 or even 3 rack space enclosures. While not as electrically efficient, they tend to have more detail sonically."
Aha I see! Thanks for the INFO! Isn't that great, you never stop learning... Merry Christmas! Best Regards Freddie
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The Maillard Reaction
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Freddie H
jon busticle
Freddie H
jon busticle
So what are the differences between the saturation types 1 and 2? That's the only question that hasn't been answered to any degree at all. I do agree that if CAKE tells us exactly what it's emulating, people will start drawing direct comparisons, however, if that is the case 100%, then why name the comps "76" and "4k"? Im gathering (from the answers i've gotten here) that the EQ modes differ ONLY in their Q relationships, and in no other way whatsoever. True? Thanks to everyone so far...Please do tell about the Sat modes
Type 1 more aggressive sound. "TUBE" Good for Guitar, bass
Type 2 smooth...Twin Tube, overall track Tube warm. (Default MODE)
Best Regards
Freddie
So does that mean that sat type 1 is triode or class B while the sat 2 is Pentode or class A? sorry for my electronics ignorance, just trying to learn. In my few days of using X1 i find that sat2 has more high end and a little less grit/distortion.
No I think all are "Class A" products but I don't know? "Class A" are referred to what "quality type". You find it in Pre-amps, converters and Tubes..
Type 2 are more musical. You can use it for warm up a track and recording without it sounds distorted. 100% tube still it sounds not distorted.
Type 1 are great too. If you add full saturation it will sound distorted like in electric guitar. 100% tube and it sounds distorted.
Hope it helps!
Regards
Freddie
I thought you were in business Freddie... I learned this stuff when I was in grade school. Class A means the current flowing through the device is the same at idle as at full power. If it's a Class A and a single ended circuit then even ordered harmonics will be emphasized and odd ordered harmonics will be present in small but noticeable amounts. If it's Class A and a push pull circuit then odd ordered, specifically 3rd and 5th order harmonics will be present and virtually all even ordered harmonics will be canceled and you will have full range dynamic integrity. If it's Class AB and a push pull circuit then virtually all even ordered harmonics will be canceled, 3rd and 5th order harmonics will be present and the dynamics will squash as transients suck down the power supply. I doubt that anyone is emulating any of the other classes but honestly I yearn for the day that I can get a Class H power amp emulation plugin... cause that stuff is loud and funky. 2 months ago I asked what the saturation characteristics were but got no answer and the reason I asked is that I predicted that I would be annoyed reading stuff that people just make up to make them selves feel cool and groovy. It sort of makes me nauseous every time I see some software hack call their plug in a tube. It's a freakin insult to the hobby OR the profession of sound production. The plugin writers should treat us as humans and simply tell us the nature of the saturation their products provide and let us use it with understanding and intent. There is no reason to remain superstitious and ignorant in the name of art. Lets get real in 2011!!! It really Matters best regards, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/01/05 21:27:10
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Middleman
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I really like the way the Gloss EQ button takes the sharp edge off a vocal or guitar.
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The Maillard Reaction
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I'm curious to learn if the gloss EQ has some sort of actual smoothing filter on a region of the audio spectrum.
When I read "Gloss" I imagine something like a Gaussian smoothing algorithm processed across the 4-8kHz range.
I wish Cakewalk would tell us what it really is.
I listened today... it seems like more than just a peak boost... but it also seems like something I could easily live without.
Being left ignorant of what it is actually doing discourages me from wanting to use it.
But, I'm glad you enjoy it.
best regards,
mike
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Middleman
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mike_mccue
I'm curious to learn if the gloss EQ has some sort of actual smoothing filter on a region of the audio spectrum.
Yes, that's what I am hearing, about 5-8k I listened today... it seems like more than just a peak boost... but it also seems like something I could easily live without.
Live tracking even after compression leaves a bit of an edge on acoustic strumming, that's where I find it useful. It softens the pick attack and Chinese mic edge. (No disparagement meant to the Chinese)
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pdlstl
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Middleman
mike_mccue
I'm curious to learn if the gloss EQ has some sort of actual smoothing filter on a region of the audio spectrum.
Yes, that's what I am hearing, about 5-8k
I listened today... it seems like more than just a peak boost... but it also seems like something I could easily live without.
Live tracking even after compression leaves a bit of an edge on acoustic strumming, that's where I find it useful. It softens the pick attack and Chinese mic edge. (No disparagement meant to the Chinese)
What is your tracking chain for acoustic guitar? Mic, pre, comp, EQ? Just curious. I do this going in using series 500 components.
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ampfixer
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Hey Mike_mc, what book gave you this information?
Class A means the current flowing through the device is the same at idle as at full power.
If it's a Class A and a single ended circuit then even ordered harmonics will be emphasized and odd ordered harmonics will be present in small but noticeable amounts.
If it's Class A and a push pull circuit then odd ordered, specifically 3rd and 5th order harmonics will be present and virtually all even ordered harmonics will be canceled and you will have full range dynamic integrity.
If it's Class AB and a push pull circuit then virtually all even ordered harmonics will be canceled, 3rd and 5th order harmonics will be present and the dynamics will squash as transients suck down the power supply.
I doubt that anyone is emulating any of the other classes but honestly I yearn for the day that I can get a Class H power amp emulation plugin... cause that stuff is loud and funky.
2 months ago I asked what the saturation characteristics were but got no answer and the reason I asked is that I predicted that I would be annoyed reading stuff that people just make up to make them selves feel cool and groovy.
It sort of makes me nauseous every time I see some software hack call their plug in a tube. It's a freakin insult to the hobby OR the profession of sound production.
I design and build tube amps and have to say that there are threads of truth in what you posted but a lot of inaccurate stuff. If you'd like to discuss tube amp operation modes in detail send me a pm. I don't think the users at large will find it very exciting. I'd like to hear more about this class H as most of my chops end with class AB. Anything I know of above this class is confined to RF transmission and not generally found in music production. Tell me more.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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UnderTow
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Re:Telll us more...
2011/01/06 07:28:36
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Zuma
This was true when EMU marketed their interfaces and mentioned the fact they used Digi's mastering grade converters... they can no longer mention Digi in reference to their "M" version interfaces... only that they use mastering grade converters.
That might be because: 1) Digidesign don't have any mastering grade converters. 2) EMU never had the same converters as Digidesign. EMU used the same converter chips as Digideisgn just like many other converters do but converter chips are only a small part of the total design. They don't tell you how the final converters will sound or behave. Power supply, clock, RF shielding and rejection, circuit board design, analogue stages etc all play as important a role in the final sound of converters as the converter chips do. So besides any Trade Mark infringements, EMU's claims were plain and simple lies. UnderTow PS: Now this thread contains a real back story ;-)
post edited by UnderTow - 2011/01/06 07:29:44
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