The Maillard Reaction
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ampfixer
Hey Mike_mc, what book gave you this information?
Class A means the current flowing through the device is the same at idle as at full power.
If it's a Class A and a single ended circuit then even ordered harmonics will be emphasized and odd ordered harmonics will be present in small but noticeable amounts.
If it's Class A and a push pull circuit then odd ordered, specifically 3rd and 5th order harmonics will be present and virtually all even ordered harmonics will be canceled and you will have full range dynamic integrity.
If it's Class AB and a push pull circuit then virtually all even ordered harmonics will be canceled, 3rd and 5th order harmonics will be present and the dynamics will squash as transients suck down the power supply.
I doubt that anyone is emulating any of the other classes but honestly I yearn for the day that I can get a Class H power amp emulation plugin... cause that stuff is loud and funky.
2 months ago I asked what the saturation characteristics were but got no answer and the reason I asked is that I predicted that I would be annoyed reading stuff that people just make up to make them selves feel cool and groovy.
It sort of makes me nauseous every time I see some software hack call their plug in a tube. It's a freakin insult to the hobby OR the profession of sound production.
I design and build tube amps and have to say that there are threads of truth in what you posted but a lot of inaccurate stuff. If you'd like to discuss tube amp operation modes in detail send me a pm. I don't think the users at large will find it very exciting. I'd like to hear more about this class H as most of my chops end with class AB. Anything I know of above this class is confined to RF transmission and not generally found in music production. Tell me more.
My dad started teaching me when I was about 6. I bought my first Class A FET amp when I was 17. It is a great regret of mine that when I was a kid I thought manufactured amps were way cooler than the amps my dad offered to teach me how to make... I wish I could do that over again. What you read was simply a shoot from the hip culmination of my years of playing with actual tube circuits as a source of color and distortion. Please consider that all the comments above were contextual to the tube circuit being SATURATED and not normal operation when one might be well below any threshold of noticeable distortions. Feel free to correct any inaccurate stuff. The class H comment was my idea of a joke.... I figured the amp guys would get it. here's a start if you really have some interest in Class H... I don't I just think it's more of the holy grail audio type stuff: http://www.eetimes.com/de...low-power-consumption- best regards, mike edit spelling and add class H link
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/01/06 08:17:35
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The Maillard Reaction
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double post.... again
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/01/06 08:15:28
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Freddie H
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mike_mccue
I thought you were in business Freddie... I learned this stuff when I was in grade school.
I was overqualified so I skiped grade school and went to college instead... 
post edited by Freddie H - 2011/01/06 12:27:31
-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Did you learn about the Dunning Kruger effect in college? I wasn't smart enough... I didn't learn about it until much later.
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/01/06 12:28:24
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Keni
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jon busticle
So what are the differences between the saturation types 1 and 2? That's the only question that hasn't been answered to any degree at all. I do agree that if CAKE tells us exactly what it's emulating, people will start drawing direct comparisons, however, if that is the case 100%, then why name the comps "76" and "4k"? Im gathering (from the answers i've gotten here) that the EQ modes differ ONLY in their Q relationships, and in no other way whatsoever. True? Thanks to everyone so far...Please do tell about the Sat modes
I agree... While I'm fine with using my ears to judge things, it's faster to know what to chose when I have an idea of what it does... Over time I'm sure I'll get a "feel" for the differences, but having something to relate that to makes it all the easier... Describing what it was modeled after simply helps me to know the direction I'm heading for faster and easier.... My ears are ALWAYS the deciding factor... So without further ado, is anyone capable of telling us what the difference is between the two saturation modes? Please, describe it to me so I can understand.... BTW... with the EQ they at least give you a little image with Pure/vintage/modern... but the saturation si simply 1/2??? Keni
post edited by Keni - 2011/01/06 12:58:10
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Keni
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mike_mccue
I'm curious to learn if the gloss EQ has some sort of actual smoothing filter on a region of the audio spectrum.
When I read "Gloss" I imagine something like a Gaussian smoothing algorithm processed across the 4-8kHz range.
I wish Cakewalk would tell us what it really is.
I listened today... it seems like more than just a peak boost... but it also seems like something I could easily live without.
Being left ignorant of what it is actually doing discourages me from wanting to use it.
But, I'm glad you enjoy it.
best regards,
mike
Yeah, Yea! I couldn't agree more!
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Dave Modisette
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BTW... with the EQ they at least give you a little image with Pure/vintage/modern... but the saturation si simply 1/2??? Does it sound even or odd?
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The Maillard Reaction
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Mod, this is a sincere question... do you think you'd recognize the difference between even ordered harmonic distortion and odd ordered?
I sincerely believe you would recognize the difference immediately but probably only after you were provided with examples of each.
I have a great interest in guitar amp and tube amp distortion.
Most people never use a Class A single ended amplifier because they start off with a Class AB push pull design and innocently assume that they have the bases covered.
If in fact you get to compare the character of the two, the differences are amazingly apparent.
on the other hand,
I freely admit that I have never studied EQ topology enough and so while I recognize the stereotyped "notch" in the Bell of the so called "Vintage" EQ in Pro Channel I can not off the top of my head anticipate what the notch is meant to mimic. I think it's obvious that it is meant to mimic some *flaw* in some old circuit that has long since been redesigned but I don't know what circuit it is a model of.
I think a little homework on my part will further my understanding of what the dev team was trying to mimic.
best regards,
mike
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Freddie H
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Freddie H
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Freddie H
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Freddie H
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dddd
post edited by Freddie H - 2011/01/09 06:41:51
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Jonbouy
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Saturation plugs tend to stay the same how ever long the DAW has been turned on and regardless of any recent current draw previous events have subject them too, i.e in reality a high frequency transient will have different characteristics over a sustained organ bass pedal than it will during a quieter passage, no?
Somehow to me most emulated saturation sounds to me unsatisfying I suspect for this reason. I'm sure you can emulate saturation effectively from a result based analysis of hardware rather than process based emulation although it would have to factor in many variables, and I'm not entirely convinced that even if knowing the process algorithms work within small tolerances of the original circuits, would it make a necessary positive difference to the quality of end result?
I personally have to go on what I like the sound of in this particular domain because even looking at analysis graphs makes everything turn grey and fuzzy.
I think it is time for me to visit the Techniques forum.
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Freddie H
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jrmunday
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The PC76 is modeling the UREI 1176.
The PC4K is modeling the SSL 4000 master buss compressor.
Vintage EQ is Neve with the broad bandwidth.
Modern is SSL style EQ with the narrow bandwidth and Pure would be a type of linear phase EQ.
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Freddie H
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jrmunday
The PC76 is modeling the UREI 1176.
The PC4K is modeling the SSL 4000 master buss compressor.
Vintage EQ is Neve with the broad bandwidth.
Modern is SSL style EQ with the narrow bandwidth and Pure would be a type of linear phase EQ.
Yes agree, and Pro Channels DSP code sounds very accurate the original hardware.
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Freddie H
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Re:Sat types
2011/02/12 03:35:17
(permalink)
☄ Helpful
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The Maillard Reaction
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Freddie,
How is it that you know more about the ProChannel than anyone at Cakewalk?
None of your descriptions of the EQ section match what Cakewalk representatives have explained.
Do you just have really good ears? Or a better imagination?
Are you suggesting that the compressor sections are copies of UAD's dsp compressors? That's almost more fun that suggesting they are copies of hardware compressors? I like where you are going with this... it puts a smile on my face.
How are you liking the make believe tube saturation? I think it sounds like a jet engine... maybe a Pratt and Witney. How about you?
Keep it real in 2011... it really matters.
:-)
all the best,
mike
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UnderTow
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Freddie has the advantage of being able to make up everything he writes. UnderTow
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Freddie H
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 make up?.. No!... but..bla bla bla.. what ever... How hard can it be? Go to the Studio with a SSL 4000 hardware console and compare the SONAR Modern EQ with the original console EQ. The same goes with a the PC4K S-Type bus compressor. Right you were saying?... http://rhythminmind.net/1313/?p=2618 And again... http://rhythminmind.net/1313/?p=2388
post edited by Freddie H - 2011/02/12 10:15:57
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UnderTow
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When you write stuff like: Freddie H
The PC76 U-Type channel compressor employs classic FET design with fast attack and analog-style warmth. PC76 is modeling are a recreation of the UAD 1176LN compressor/Limiter.
You are purely and plainly making it up. This whole thread is a joke. There is no back story. A back story implies you have access to information that others don't for instance by interviewing the developers of a product or something like that. But this thread is just you copy&pasting the Cakewalk marketing or, even worse, you making wild speculations that are often in direct contradiction to what Cakewalk employees have written. Often your comments don't make any sense. Modelling a software plugin? Get real Freddie. UnderTow
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windsurfer25x
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Katie_Katie
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I had a Purple 76. The Pro Channel 76 operates and sounds quite similar. If I have a compliant, it would be the lack of metering options. If you are going to model a box, why not include the other functions (i.e. metering). The real 76 is silly simple with few knobs and buttons. Add the metering buttons - there are only 4 - and the meter select switch.
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UnderTow
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Katie_Katie
If you are going to model a box, why not include the other functions (i.e. metering).
And if you are going to model analogue gear, why not model 21st century analogue gear instead of 30 year old technology (that has already been copied and modelled dozens of times!)? A bit like these guys did: http://www.steinberg.net/...ico_plugins_start.html (No offense to Cakewalk but that page with the video with Rupert Neve just oozes style and class. Please take note). UnderTow
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Katie_Katie
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Thanks for that link Undertow - nice video of Mr. Neve. I suppose they (Cakewalk) could have done as you stated. Why not? [shrugging shoulders]. I have not tried out the 5033 (either software or the rack mount), so I can only assume it is nice based on Neve reputation alone. As to the 76. Well, I kinda like the vintage sound. Although in the real rack-mount world, no two 76's sounded the same (discrete components I suppose) and it was part of their....well...charm :) You have caused me to look into purchasing (or at least trying) the 5033. It does look quite nice and it has a viable back story to boot. Thanks for helping me spend my money Undertow.
post edited by Katie_Katie - 2011/02/12 11:59:06
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Middleman
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I'll be interested to hear those Rupert Neve Plugins, I own the 5043 compressor but had to sell my 5033 EQs. That was a sad day. It will be interesting to see how close they come.
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Supercomposer
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I´d like a comparison between prochanel and the new Rupert Neve Portico Plugins
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Katie_Katie
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Middleman
I'll be interested to hear those Rupert Neve Plugins, I own the 5043 compressor but had to sell my 5033 EQs. That was a sad day. It will be interesting to see how close they come.
I, for one, would be very interested in your comparison Middleman. Having a rack version for a side-by-side would be quite informative. Sorry for your loss (the selling of the 5033). 
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UnderTow
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Katie_Katie
I have not tried out the 5033 (either software or the rack mount), so I can only assume it is nice based on Neve reputation alone.
I haven't used the 5033 or 5043 specifically but one of the studios I work at has Portico II's. That is a very nice piece of gear. You have caused me to look into purchasing (or at least trying) the 5033. It does look quite nice and it has a viable back story to boot.
Thanks for helping me spend my money Undertow.
Heh. You are welcome. :) UnderTow
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codamedia
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And if you are going to model analogue gear, why not model 21st century analogue gear instead of 30 year old technology (that has already been copied and modeled dozens of times!)? A bit like these guys did: http://www.steinberg.net/...ico_plugins_start.html (No offense to Cakewalk but that page with the video with Rupert Neve just oozes style and class. Please take note).
Lets be clear that these plug-ins are not included with CB6, and are rumored to be in the $400 price range each (last time I looked). I couldn't even find them in their shop yet (but may have missed them). There is nothing stopping anyone from buying these and using them in X1, but to suggest CW should have done this instead of Pro Channel (which is included with X1) seems a little odd to me. I will agree with "why model what has been modeled a dozen times" but I'm not sure why you would be against modeling 30 year old technology. Older gear has a unique sound/vibe to it and if it gets captured in the model - great! As a guitar player your argument is like saying "why model a 60's Blackface Fender Deluxe when you can model a the newer Hot Rod Deluxe that has way more features". Technically a better amp - but not necessarily!
post edited by codamedia - 2011/02/12 13:24:44
Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take!
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