The Orchestral Shootout (the old thread)

[Update, 18 Aug: We've had to shut down the poll due to cheating. We will be starting a new poll ASAP.]
[Update 19 Aug: Polling has resumed, but we're doing it via email this time to prevent cheating. The new thread is here.]

Go here and click on "Vote for Your Favorite".

(I know, the text says "click on the link below", but the link below takes you to the Garritan site. It's the link below that one that takes you to the poll. But I'd still encourage you to take a side-trip to our sponsor's site if you've never been there before. If nothing else you can scope out the cool prizes you might win!)

Here is an alternate link if you need it, that takes you straight to the poll. (It looks different, but it's the same poll.)

There are 71 entries (!), so it's going to be a challenge to listen to each one completely. (I've done it, so it's not impossible.) However, it is quite acceptable to listen to just a few key parts before making your decision.

I listen specifically to the opening brass, the string melody in the second section, and the percussion at the end, as well as the overall clarity and balance. Those just seem to me to be the most critical aspects, although maybe you're an oboist or something and have a different set of criteria. Use your own judgment, just be sure to listen to at least a few seconds of each entry. Tip: give each one at least 5 seconds' listen, as it takes that long to wash the taste of the previous entry out of your ears.

You can vote for 3 entries, which takes some of the pressure off for trying to pick the one "best one".

The grand prize winner will be the entry with the greatest total number of votes. First and second runners-up will receive a single Garritan library of their choice.

Winners will be announced soon after voting ends on September 1st. Details for all the entries will also be revealed at that time.

I have listened to them all, so it can be done.

Now I will do a second listen to about 1/3 of the entries. I think I already have my winner though.

It will be tough to decide on who 2 and 3 will be.

I almost feel as if there should have been 2 categories. Those who were going for extreme realism, and those who went completely the other way, and did not use "orchestral" instrument libraries at all, or especially those used what sounds like the TTS-1 or equivalent. I would have liked a special award for the best job with the lowest form of technology.

Most common error, IMHO, was a lack of dynamics, both on the individual instruments and in the overall production. Second, it was clear that few had a handle on the proper articulation characteristics of the individual instruments. Third, too much reverb.

It is definitely worth the time to listen through them all. Fine effort on everyone's part.

Now listened to all 71....and you know what?  I haven't got a clue which 3 to vote for!!

the one with the vibraslap made me laugh!!

I found it helpful to start with a quick pass and jot down the obvious candidates, then go back and listen closely to just those. Even then, reducing the list to three was tough. I got it down to 6 and then finally 3, but eliminating those last 3 required resorting to real nit-picking. [NOTE: I do not know which is which, either. Only Randy knows any details about the entries.]

    Once again I am just giving Randy and Bitflipper props for putting together this fun 'contest'.  I'm sure some people have benefited from the experience of putting their entries together and used tools (Continuous Controllers) and techniques ( IE : panning reverbs, keyswitching, copying/pasting to other tracks in the percussion case etc.) they may not normally of used during their everyday fiddling around.  
    Thanks for taking the time and effort to put this together, cant wait to read the techniques that people used.
-Mike

       

Yeh, I'd like to add a +1 for Randy's suggestion that we try to keep any discussion general in nature and not get too much into individual entries just yet - so as not to influence those who haven't voted yet. We will, I'm sure, fully explore the ramifications of what we've learned from all of this after the 1st of the month, when voting ceases. I know I've been taking notes and will have questions.

Great work guys!!!  Hopefully will have the time to listen to the entries and vote sometime next week.

This is a GREAT contest.  I agree, that all the contestants are winners with talent and energy.
It's very tough to decide my favorite, I have about 8 of them which all have things I like.  It does indeed show how varied people's tastes are when it comes to music.

it's Very interesting how very different tracks can sound even when using the same instruments

This is going to be cool.  I'm going to play a game with myself and come back in a couple of months and listen again.  I wish there was some way I could "shuffle the deck" so they would number differently.  What I'd like to see is if I pick differently.  Over the years, I go back and listen.  Some things I did sound good, maybe better than I remembered, some things, I just don't see how I could have let it go out like that  :)
I'm anxious to see the tools used and learn something about each person who submitted.  I'd also love to read why voters picked the one they did as their favorite over the two or three "close" candidates.
 

Tfkeel and Twigman - Nice posts, thanks for them.  It's great to see people getting the most out of this contest by listening to the entries so carefully.

INTERESTING EMAIL

I got a really good email from a member here.  He was explaining why he's finding it so difficult to vote:

--He has a list of criteria.  Things he's hoping to hear done well with this sequence.  For instance he'd like to hear the woodwinds enough to know they're actually in there.  Same for the glock.

--His dilemma is that even though he has a list of entries which have the best over-all production and the most professional sound, they invariably do Not meet all his criteria.  The tracks he thinks sound best don't have all the attributes he'd like to hear, while some other MP3s which don't sound as good to him Do meet his expectations in how the various parts of the orchestra are doing what he feels they should.

I think what he's struggling with is the age old issue in recordings - it's literally impossible for each individual element to be distinctly heard.  Many instruments spend a lot of time in a recording being part of the over-all texture.  You can't distinguish them individually, but you Would miss them if they weren't there.  And that's as it should be.

Listening to an orchestra live, I've often been struck by how I'll see the woodwind section working away, but I can't really hear them.  They're mostly doubling and supporting the strings - But the amalgamated sound of strings in combination with the woodwinds are making a new sound, a morphed sound if you will.

There are probably things about this sequence itself which make it difficult to produce well.  Like I feel there are too many things competing in the bass frequencies.  A more advanced arrangement would avoid problems like that.

But we all have our own criteria for judging what we think is "best" in a situation like this where we're asked to compare and choose what we feel are the most successful recordings.

AND A NOTE ABOUT THE VOTING:

I'm watching my administrator page at Polldaddy - and I can see that some people aren't choosing three entries.  That surprises me - There are 72 entries here.  It seems like anyone would be able to single out 3 or more which they find especially good.  But apparently some people aren't using all the votes they're allowed - finding only 1 or 2 worthy of notice.  Interesting!

Randy B.

This is a great idea and a great contest.  And it has produced (I'm sure) a lot of great talent.  Sadly tho, I must apologize to most of the participants as I have discovered that, at least for me, 8 listenings to the Star Wars Theme is the absolute limit.  Yet I could listen to "Baby Elephant Walk" by Henry Mancini all day long.  Go figure.  Good luck to all the participants!

You're quite welcome, Randy!   You and Bit should be commended (again) for organizing this in the first place.
 
Regarding the entries, one of the problems I'm having is that I hear a lot similarity between many of them.  And that just makes it harder to pick.  While there were one or two that really stood out the first time through, coming up with that third pick might be the problem.  And that's assuming I actually hear them the same way on the second pass.     :)
 
 

AND A NOTE ABOUT THE VOTING: I'm watching my administrator page at Polldaddy - and I can see that some people aren't choosing three entries. That surprises me - There are 72 entries here. It seems like anyone would be able to single out 3 or more which they find especially good. But apparently some people aren't using all the votes they're allowed - finding only 1 or 2 worthy of notice. Interesting!

 
I'm wondering if these people are just finding their submission, casting a vote for themselves then moving on.  That's the downside of handing out a "prize" that everyone is going to want.  It can bring on tactics that may muddy up the whole point of the exersize.
 
I've listened to all of them with my own sort of "checklist" of things I listen for and see how people treat them differently.  It certainly kept listening to 70+ entries a little less monotanous. 
 
Here is a neat video for a variety of reasons, maybe it could come in handy to some people to see some seating positions and also hear the ambience of a live orchestra, besides being one of the coolest songs ever! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK9leZLItek&feature=related
I would LOVE to get my hands on this Score so I could make my own midi files!
 
Speaking of seating assignments, someone posted this: http://library.thinkquest.org/22673/orchestra.html on the forums a while back and it has definately helped me, hopefully others that missed it the first time will get some benefit from it.  I find that if I score in Sibelius then import my midi files into Sonar, Sibelius does a decent job at panning the instruments already, but even that needs some tweeking.  I definately heard some entries that I thought sounded good but could of benefited from having a 'larger' sound with proper panning of instruments.   I found my 3 but could of voted for 5 atleast.
 
-Mike

I think I have decided that I will spread my votes out. I am going to place one vote for the one that I think sounds the most like the original, then a vote for the one that sounds the least like the original due to not using orchestral sounds, then the one that I think sounds best but was probably done with the lowest form of technology.

It strikes me that the one that I think sounds the best is probably done by someone who really doesn't need the Garritan software, since that person obviously owns a fine orchestral sample set already.

BTW, one of the points I would make about some of the mixes is that you can tell who knows how to mix for an orchestra and who thinks they can mix an orchestra like a rock band. Hint - orchestral percussion does not get mixed up front like rock percussion.

Well...I'll give it the old college try Randy, ol pal. I promise.  It is weird tho that some things I can listen to ad infinitum and other things just once or twice and...that's it.  I'm sure you, yor ownself, have similar aural roadblocks.  But I'll do what I can.  Honest!

LpMike75

It seems like anyone would be able to single out 3 or more which they find especially good. But apparently some people aren't using all the votes they're allowed.

 
I'm wondering if these people are just finding their submission, casting a vote for themselves then moving on. 

 
-Mike

Neat post, Mike - It's definitely a boon to people working on digital orchestral emulations to take a look at seating charts.  An important caveat, however, is that there are quite a few different seating arrangements.  Some are more common than others, but none are The Seating Chart.

There's also the interesting problem/question we have to deal with when doing a recording with software - and that's how to make a recording which sounds good as opposed to just "correct" in its seating.  For instance, the traditional seating of the basses way over on the right really doesn't sound very good in recordings, and I mean even in the great, very traditionally produced Angel recordings.  There's no reason to not move the basses to the center so the frequency range can be more balanced.

Your observation which I've quoted above about people who seem to be using only one vote instead of three---I hadn't even thought of that.  Maybe there are contestants only voting for themselves.  It's quite possible that you're right.  I hope not though.  I think it's fine for contestants to vote for themselves, but to not use all three votes- acknowledge the good work of their fellow musicians?

Well - I hope the voting is all done on the up-and-up.  And no "ballot stuffing" as Bitflipper referred to in a post here.  We have taken note of some activity - we're monitoring the situation.

Randy B.