John T


The word-to-word volume automation strikes me as an odd one to complain about. Meticulous engineers do that because it's better than leaving it to a compressor, if you've got the time and the skill. It's the absolute opposite of lazy cheating.

+1 ... Well spoken, IMHO.  Art really has no limits for me.
 
But I see Grant's point, too ... at least for some excellent vocal vibe-performances.  A lot of my older music references (Spinners, ELO, etc.) have wide vocal dynamics and performance jewels, AKA extraordinary performances that were *miraculously* obtained ... and poorly engineered.
 
Still ... spinning up turds into platinum has always been my humble yet neurotic goal as a artist, since I can't always dramatize like the Spinners.
 
Perhaps in the end, to each his own madness.

Don't say anything dubdisciple, cause your post count is 666!!!

I care about the music. Is it an enjoyable experience or not? Whether they can perform live or not is irrelevant. If the music is good, I'll enjoy listening to it. If they are crap live, they are crap live. So be it. I won't go watch their act. But I'll still enjoy their studio albums because it's pleasing to the ear. That's all I really care about. I'd love it if they were amazing live as well, but if they ain't, they ain't! To me, it's as simple as that really. I personally like to be honest about how I make my music if the question is asked, I'd never lie about it, but I'm sure most artists would be the same.

Also, Lil Wane is a not brilliant but also not bad guitarist 

John , I agree that talent wise Bible is the weakest link of the bunch but even he fails as an example because his music is the bubblegum pop version of jazz. Does anyone really consider him some form of high art and Representative of the American Jazz tradition?  Buble is a mediocre singer that happens to be very marketable.  id droddey wants to use him, so be it, but he has failed to even do that even though i am helping him out. he simply wants to keep ranting with no substance behind the rant.  

I also agree about lady Gaga.   I simply pulled her from the list because, despite her talent her style of music  in recordings is not the best medium for judging such things. I'll even give another freebie.  i read an interview with the mix engineer for The Carter IV and he was upfront about doing a lot of processing on Lil Wayne's voice when he attempted to sing.  The biggest problem with using that is rap has a long history of rappers putting out a song or two of bad singing that somehow becomes a hit.  This is no knock because not a lil wayne fan on the planet would claim he is a great singer. Biz Markie scored a hit without being able to sing a lick.  in fact just a friend was huge because he sung so poorly.

The thing about people like Lady GaGa is that I think it's easy for miserable muso types to assume they do what they do because they can't do anything else. I'm not a big fan of her records myself, but she's a very accomplished musician making exactly the music she intends to make.

John T.  It no longer shocks me that many of the artists that create what seems like lesat common denominator music often have amazing musical chops.  i have seen people who have went to Juliard crank out simple "boom bap" hip hop beats because that is what was needed for the project. i have even encountered techno artsists that can play note for note with anyone in the world.  Even many of the maligned artists are surprisingly good from a technical standpoint.  Kenny g is a world class a-hole in person and I loathe his music, but people in the know are aware that he is incredibly skilled .

Wow, this thread continues to prove that the most common form of communiations on the planet is misunderstanding. I don't see how you guys are getting any of this stuff from what I said. I don't want everyone on the planet to sound like Steely Dan. I don't even listen to them because I find it too refined, though I respect the talent.

I'm talking about HONESTY. What's so hard to get about that? Just put out there what you are and can honestly do. I love roughly made music. In fact when anyone asks me these days what's something out there I think is interesting I point them at a band like CocoRosie, a lot of which is incredibly primitive. But it has an amazing vibe because it is real.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6bInhOhUYs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51K4cUTuvc0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDb7dAnm79I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBWxjAiO_KQ

Check all of the above out. Don't listen to one and think you know what they are because the range of stuf in there is pretty vast. Some of it is incredibly primitive but it gives me the chills.

And of course I'm a huge fan of Yes, Rush, Pink Floyd, and so forth, which is much more produced and some of it vastly more technically oriented. And though those bands are very much into experimentation, they don't misrpresent what they can actually do. They can all bring it live.

I don't care how you express yourself, I just wish you'd be honest about it, and not put out songs that are inhumanly perfected by extensive use of editing and corrective tools, and just pretend like you did it. I don't respect that any more than I respect anyone in any other profession misrepresenting their accomplishments.
And I don't think that Lady Gaga is a bad musician. She clearly is someone, like Madonna, who sees a market and goes after it with a vengeance, and makes herself more about image than music. I have no problem with that either, per se. But if anyone here is trying to claim that there isn't hugely more *performance* enhancement going on today than there was up until the advent of widespread digital tools in the mid-90s, then I have to laugh. And I mean not of the sort where it's an obvious effect, which is always just a matter of taste. And I certainly don't think it's improved music at all. It's cheapened it ultimately.
 

Grant: Yeah, killer, isn't it? I don't like her records much, and I wish she'd put more of that kind of thing out properly. Paparazzi, Bad Romance and Videophone (not Telephone) with Beyonce are great pop records, though.

On Pink Floyd: they were pretty lame live, under their own steam. Bolstered on stage by a half dozen session players since the early 70s. I'll give them that live8 show, they were pretty good on that as a four piece, but that's not been their MO since as far back as the Dark Side tour.

" I think everyone gets that you're talking about honesty. I think what's happening is that more or less nobody in the thread so far agrees with your definition of honesty, nor agrees that its particularly relevant whatever the definition."


Todays audiences actually have more knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes than ever before.  They are well aware there is lots of performance enhancing technology and really don't care.  They are certainly not being deceived 

That "bring it live" thing too, I wonder about that. Public Enemy shout over the top of samples, to this day. And I have never seen a better live show than PE's live show. Sure, they don't play any instruments, but they can pin you to the wall more than most actual made-of-musicians bands. You might say that's cheating, I say it's a cue for live bands to step up their game, if a rap band in their 50s can blow you away.

John TGrant: Yeah, killer, isn't it? I don't like her records much, and I wish she'd put more of that kind of thing out properly. Paparazzi, Bad Romance and Videophone (not Telephone) with Beyonce are great pop records, though.

 
 
 Yea, a huge surprise. I hear you about the normal style. Truly a brilliant young lady though. Kind of reminds me of this tune that I wasn't into the original electronic version but when it's just her and her pianos, she just steals my heart.
Hey Jupiter  Truly two ladies who talent is undeniable and timeless

Yeah, I love that Hey Jupiter song. I quite like Tori Amos on record, though I think as the years have gone by, her live shows have outpaced her records.

 I've only seen her live on youtube and SNL. I'll have to see her if she comes around.

I don't know...I find myself listening a lot of times to bands like Magma and Gong...or god forbid...Peter Brotzmann's various groups...or Charles Gayle. 

I'm just a bit weird that way...