Helpful ReplyThe meters are not accutate!

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Beepster
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/16 21:02:01 (permalink)
For your situation by keeping your volume down until the end means you don't HAVE to worry if something gets a little loud. If it sounds good you can keep it without having to constantly readjust your faders. You can just let it be loud and not worry about clipping.
 
Then when your mix is done you make up the extra volume with the limiter. It doesn't even have to actually DO anything except raise the volume. I do this all the time to check out premaster mixes. I use the limiter to turn it up as much as possible but NOT reduce any peaks at all. So the limiter doesn't CHANGE the sound. It just turns it up.
 
It's hard to explain in a simple way (or really any simpler than has been explained in this thread).
 
It will just make your life a LOT easier and likely help you have more freedom with your mixes.
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vladasyn
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/16 21:02:37 (permalink)
Thats now how normalize works. It searches for peaks and places them at zero. The rest of the audio is brought up proportionally. If you have an audio track with peaks already near zero and much of the audio is -24 dB you will not see much change in loudness even though the audio is relatively low for the most part.

 
I bag to differ. The Normalize will increase the level of intro if it is at -7, even if middle part of the song was close to zero. I might be wrong as I learned it when I was mastering with Stainberg WaveLab. There every time you use Dinamics, it offers to normalize, so I may be thinking that it was normalizing but it was compressing and then normalizing. But Normalize does resample the track and takes everything to the Zero point. Yes, compressor suppresses the peak. That is all. It does not increase anything. In WaveLab it was 2 steps process. First you compress and suppress all peaks. Then you normalize and you can see that it changes from pine cone shape of the wave in to the sausage, and the Intro part becomes the same level as the body.  

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#32
Beepster
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/16 21:05:04 (permalink)
Uh... vlad, you really should be listening to what's being said here. These guys aren't lying to you. They're trying help you.
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vladasyn
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/16 21:06:52 (permalink)
What will make my life easy? How is limiter "just makes it louder"? I don't have to worry. My tracks are where they should be by what I hear. Some are very low, some louder. I keep the final Mix by -0.1. Then Limiter has no need to make anything sound louder- it just color it and makes it feel and sound louder.

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#34
John
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/16 21:16:45 (permalink)
vladasyn
Thats now how normalize works. It searches for peaks and places them at zero. The rest of the audio is brought up proportionally. If you have an audio track with peaks already near zero and much of the audio is -24 dB you will not see much change in loudness even though the audio is relatively low for the most part.

 
I bag to differ. The Normalize will increase the level of intro if it is at -7, even if middle part of the song was close to zero. I might be wrong as I learned it when I was mastering with Stainberg WaveLab. There every time you use Dinamics, it offers to normalize, so I may be thinking that it was normalizing but it was compressing and then normalizing. But Normalize does resample the track and takes everything to the Zero point. Yes, compressor suppresses the peak. That is all. It does not increase anything. In WaveLab it was 2 steps process. First you compress and suppress all peaks. Then you normalize and you can see that it changes from pine cone shape of the wave in to the sausage, and the Intro part becomes the same level as the body.  


I think you need to read more about this. I'm not sure how to address what you wrote. You are in effect telling me that normalize while using a compressor will compress the dynamic range. Yes that is true. Normalize by itself will not alter the dynamic range. That is also true and you need to understand that. 
 
This thread was about clipping. The only way to not clip is to lower the volume. How you do this is up to you but you can't stop clipping without an adjustment to the volume. I hope you understand this. 
 
 

Best
John
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Beepster
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/16 21:20:51 (permalink)
vladasyn
What will make my life easy? How is limiter "just makes it louder"? I don't have to worry. My tracks are where they should be by what I hear. Some are very low, some louder. I keep the final Mix by -0.1. Then Limiter has no need to make anything sound louder- it just color it and makes it feel and sound louder.





*sigh*
 
You started this thread by saying things were clipping. What is being said is that if you mix at lower OVERALL volumes from the start you NEVER have to worry about clipping EVER. Then you make up the difference at the very END of the signal chain by turning up the master bus. Nothing needs to get louder or quieter in relation to each other. Nothing needs to change for your mix.
 
By "making it louder" I am saying it can be just like turning your speakers up (your mix doesn't change when you do that... right?). The limiter is ONLY there just in case something DOES clip. If your mix is completely perfect already then you can just turn up the gain knob or the volume fader on the Master bus as loud as it goes before clipping. That is the EXACT SAME THING I am saying you can use the Limiter for on the master bus.
 
It's just another volume control with "clip protection" at that point. You can however use it to tame peaks as well or completely squish the song. It depends on how you set the limiter.
 
Anyway... if you are happy with your mixes then by all means keep working as you have been. I guess that;s all that matters.
 
Cheers.
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Anderton
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/16 21:28:29 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Dream Logic Audio 2016/02/16 22:36:16
vladasyn
But this blog sounds immature. Who in the world care about where the Faders are. There is no need to pay attention where the faders are. That number has no value...[snip] he says- the effects may be clipping? Come on now! No visual working? My effects do not randomly clip. There usually is a meter and you can see or hear if it clipping.

 
A few things to remember. First of all, if you never use any plug-ins, you can stop reading now. Keep the channel faders as high as you want, the master fader wherever you want, and godspeed.
 
The world of digital audio is changing constantly. I see people on the web offering advice that is very relevant if you're living in 1991 and using Pro Tools, but has no relevance to 2016. So, beware of misinformation. I have a feeling you are thinking 1999.
 
Next, there is a difference between what makes sense theoretically and what makes sense practically. In theory, you don't need to keep the master fader at zero; in practice, if you're putting any plug-ins in the master bus, it does.
 
Okay.
 
In theory, with SONAR's 64-bit engine and summing bus which have virtually unlimited dynamic range, you can run the channels totally into the red and not get distortion. In practice, you probably use plug-ins and they are not part of the summing bus.
 
People in these forums get all freaked out because some ProChannel module clipping LEDs may go on when the channel fader isn't in the red.
 
The ProChannel clip LEDs relate solely to the ProChannel plug-ins. They have nothing to do with what's happening in the channel hosting them. This is true of plug-ins in general.
 
Think about it. You have a module that emulates analog gear. What happens when you push way more signal into analog gear than it can handle? Do you want to emulate that too, and use up a gazillion CPU cycles to emulate the sound of analog audio crapping out? I would hope not. So, those clipping indicators show when you're about to enter the range of irrelevance. And many plug-ins don't indicate clipping, or have a limited dynamic range just because the designer saw no need for it.
 
Conclusion #1: You want to keep channel levels within rational boundaries if you use plug-ins. Peaking at -6 to -12 is fine.
 
Next, stuff happens. A peak hits on the boundary of the 40 ms meter framing window. A random modulation effect causes a boost. Acidized loops can produce different output levels at different tempos, so the loop that sounded great at 120 BPM when you loaded it may be going "into the red" at 127 BPM. Which you think is fine because SONAR has an ultra-cool audio engine that can take anything you throw at it, but bearing Conclusion #1 in mind, the plug-ins it hosts may NOT be able to take anything you can throw at it.
 
Conclusion #2: Stuff happens.
 
Mastering and mixing are two different things. Mixing is all about getting a balance among various signals. If two signals sound right when one is 6 dB below the other, then it doesn't matter if the signals are at -12 and -6, or -15 and -9. Mixing is about balance, not level.
 
Mastering these days is about level. So you take your properly-balanced mix and beat the living daylights out of it with a multiband limiter so it's nice and loud, causes ear fatigue, and turns people off to music. Or not...it is possible to get a loud master without having it sound horrible, but people pay me a lot of money to do that and it would take a lot of pages to describe the processes, so we'll leave that for another day.
 
Conclusion #3: Use mixing to get the balance right. Use mastering to get the final level of the stereo mix right.
 
Finally, normalization is not the same as limiting. Normalization analyzes the difference between the highest peak and 0. For example if the highest peak goes to -4.3 and you normalize to 0, everything will be amplified by 4.3 db - loud parts, soft parts, whatever. Your dynamic range stays the same. It's like turning up a volume control.
 
Limiting restricts dynamic range by reducing peaks. After reducing the peaks, your maximum peak is now below 0, which opens up headroom, so you can apply makeup gain to make the overall signal louder.
 
Conclusion #4: To get the maximum level so that your music can be heard above the sound of vacuum cleaning, buses going by, living in a flight path, or road noise, limiting does the job, not normalization.
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/16 21:44:00 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2016/02/17 04:01:04
One more thing: You may not perceive clipping as such, but it's cumulative. If there's a lot of subtle clipping going on, it will destroy the clarity of your mix and you won't know why, because it's not obvious.
 
Often pulling back on individual channel faders and increasing the master fader will all of a sudden make the mix sound "clearer."
 
Also, remember that how effects react usually has more to do with what's going into them than what's coming out of them. Slam the input of a compressor, you'll get more compression. Slam the input of an amp sim, you'll get more distortion. The fader is determining how much they contribute to the mix. What contributes to the effect is the signal level that precedes them. Remember...balance.
 
And ultimately, in response to your thread title, the meters are accurate at the point where they are taking their reading, withinthe window during which they are taking that reading. 

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#38
vladasyn
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/16 21:56:20 (permalink)
The reason we got to talk about how limiting works is because somebody said- they would mix to -3 and then use limiter to bring it to -0.1, which to me is not a good idea. I mix to -0.1, then limit peaks by master limiter and bring it slightly higher. I still do not see a reason to mix under -3.
 
I do use plugins almost on every track. I like what you wrote: Conclusion #3: Use mixing to get the balance right. Use mastering to get the levels right. Still I think when you mix, you may as well have it as close to where you like it to be as possible.
 
What happens with my mixes is this: I have 7 minutes song with 70 tracks. About 250 measures. I play song over and over and over and over for years (I still mix song I made in 2008 today) and make adjustments to individual instruments to make right balance between the instruments. The problem is that when all tracks are at the right balance, some tracks sound low but clipping. Let's say Vocal. I want it at this level. 90% of the track is under the Zero, but it has let's say 10 peaks above zero. I can not lower the entire vocal track to get rid of it because softer parts will be too low. I can not lower all 70 tracks down without risking of affecting overall balance. So I have to use automation. I enter node and lower that individual part which was clipping. (Now word clipping is wrong. My tracks do not clip as being recorded above zero- that would cause ugly vertical line and distortion. I am talking about normal recording level and peaking on playback).So when I use automation and I set this part to -7, the clipping disappears. Then I play from beginning of the song and that same part clipping again. May be I should put the limiter on that vocal track, instead of entering nodes on automation. I started another thread about clitch on entering nodes. It is very painful trying to lower one second long peak by entering 4 nodes. It stops accepting nodes and I have to close and reopen Sonar to get it back to work. So that was the cause of frustration when I started thos thread. After struggling for 3 hours fighting peaks, they were partially back when I played from beginning. This musty be the effects on the vocal track.

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#39
sharke
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/16 22:47:50 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2016/02/17 04:00:30
This is a very interesting and informative article on levels and gain staging, and I would highly recommend that you read it. 
 
https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep13/articles/level-headed.htm
 
Of interest:
 
Bad advice aside, I believe there are also several reasons why the DAW software itself leads people to make mistakes. Partly, I think it's due to the huge amounts of 'internal headroom' offered by modern 32- and 64-bit floating-point software — you could theoretically describe a dynamic range of a whopping 1500dB in a 32-bit floating-point system without causing problems. That enables you to apply serious amounts of gain if you wish — in theory! In practice, many people, including me, believe that the summing engines in different DAWs don't always produce the same results when summing lots of very high-level signals, and that these differences can be audible. The probable reason for this, to put it simply, is down to differences in how the 32- or 64-bit floating-point calculations are rounded to create the 24-bit audio part of the floating-point data.
 
 And also this: 
 
The second way in which DAW software can mislead is in its digital sample-peak metering. That's used by default in all DAW mixers (although, thankfully, progress is at last being made in meaningful loudness metering on the stereo mix bus). The sample-peak meter indicates the amplitude of the highest audio sample at any moment in time, and provides an approximation of the actual peak level of the reconstructed audio waveform. The approximation is perfectly adequate for use on the stereo bus, or any channel where you plan to send the signal out into the analogue domain — if you're working with a sensible headroom margin — since any amplitude errors are non-critical.

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#40
Sanderxpander
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 00:37:30 (permalink)
If what you mean by "mastering" is slapping a brick wall limiter on the master bus, then by all means, mix to -0.1 and watch Bob Katz cringe. If you are delivering songs for professional mastering, you shouldn't, in the mix phase, push the volume so high at all. The mastering engineer needs some headroom to work with. Otherwise, the first thing he'll do is gain down the total volume of your mix, thereby reducing the dynamic range you had available. 
 
As for normalize, normalizing isn't compression. Normalizing simply means bringing the highest peak of your music to a set value, usually 0dB or -0.1dB. It doesn't change your dynamic range other than raising your noise floor. If you ever got a "sausage" type file you were first compressing. Without normalizing you would still have gotten that sausage, just a thinner one. 
#41
Boydie
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 03:26:57 (permalink)
"I do use plugins almost on every track. I like what you wrote: Conclusion #3: Use mixing to get the balance right. Use mastering to get the levels right. Still I think when you mix, you may as well have it as close to where you like it to be as possible."

I believe your last sentence is where you are missing the point

When you MIX instead of aiming for -0.1 aim for -6 and turn up your monitoring so that it still sounds as loud as you want it when mixing

THEN load up OZONE on your master bus and use the tools to get your mix up to -0.3 by using the final limiter within Ozone

Everyone else has explained the reasons WHY this approach is considered better and trying to argue against this advice is stopping you from achieving what you want - and what you asked for help with

To achieve what you want (louder mixes to compete with commercial recordings) I would suggest just trying to work this way on a mix you have already done

Save a "mix scene", remove Ozone and then mix so the meter is bounding around -6db(ish) on the master

This will mean reducing the fader/gain levels on your tracks so start your mix from scratch with this new target in mind

As CRAIG says, when mixing you are worried about the balance and clarity of the elements

When you have the mix sorted and it is bouncing around -6 on the master use Ozone to bring the level up

If you are just throwing random Ozone presets on I would suggest watching a few videos on your version of Ozone so that you can tailor the preset to your particular needs as it will sound MUCH better
post edited by Boydie - 2016/02/17 03:41:35

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#42
bobguitkillerleft
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 03:44:52 (permalink)
Hi,
Iv'e had an experience a couple of times where I think I'm sending something to soundcloud,that SONAR shows I'm below -0.1,but OZONE 7 will indicate it's clipping by being over,like +0.1 or even +0.3,I'm obviously making my tracks too loud anyway,so I'm in the process of making sure everyone[Platinums meters plus ANY plugins],are AT Least -0.3 or less.
Bob Sattler

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#43
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 04:07:17 (permalink)
I disagree with the assessment that you leave the loudness until the very last step. If you are serious about getting a loud track then you'll probably be putting clippers or limiters on percussion tracks (at the least) early on. This is not because there's a problem with tracks peaking low before you sum them - as that can be made up for with gain later in the chain - but because you want to have an idea of how attempts to get loudness are going to affect things down the line. The mastering engineer doesn't have as many options as you do (eg. re-tracking, automation, transient shaper) so you need to make sure you're not giving them an impossible task.
post edited by Kylotan - 2016/02/17 04:21:38

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#44
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 05:21:02 (permalink)
Kylotan makes some good points.
 
On most of my recent mixes, I've mixed right INTO my mastering chain so I immediately know how the chain is affecting the overall quality of the mix and also a very accurate idea of the final loudness.
 
You do need to calibrate your monitors if you go down this route - mine are calibrated to 78dB.
 
85 is too loud for my small room.

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#45
Boydie
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 07:31:56 (permalink)
I agree that once you understand what is going on you can "mix into" a mastering chain
 
The lines between "mixing and mastering" are definitely getting blurred now that PCs can easily handle a whole mix project with loads of plugins AND a complex mastering chain
 
 

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#46
Paul P
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 07:35:10 (permalink)
vladasyn
I mix to -0.1, then limit peaks by master limiter and bring it slightly higher.



I suggest you take several steps back and reconsider your 'normal' ways of mixing and mastering.  Read some good books, listen to the professionals here, go back to school.  Forget for a moment how you currently do things and open your mind to what others may have to say.  There is logic to the tried and true.
 

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Paul P
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 07:53:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby dcumpian 2016/02/17 08:40:02
Boydie
I agree that once you understand what is going on you can "mix into" a mastering chain



But is it a good idea to do so ?  Kylotan mentions mixing while keeping mastering in mind.  That's not the same thing as mixing and mastering at the same time.  I understand that mixing and mastering have different goals and require  different mindsets (and tools) to acheive them.
 
Say you're building a piece of furniture.  It doesn't make sense to final-sand some pieces while rough cutting others since you'll undoubtedly have to resand them after they've been knocked around for days waiting for final assembly.  It's better to do things in stages, in which you set things up and lay out the tools needed for each stage, and methodically work your way through the stages to the final product.  If you try to jump stages for different parts you invariably end up having to redo the later stages for certain parts, and maybe even risk starting over if you missed something important.  You end up jumping around chaotically trying to do everything at once instead of steadily converging towards the final product.
 

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#48
sharke
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 08:53:33 (permalink)
The only thing I "mix into" is a master bus compressor.

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#49
John T
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 09:19:30 (permalink)
You can mix into 2-bus processing, for sure. Lots of mixers swear by it. But that is in no sense "mastering".

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Anderton
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 09:53:03 (permalink)
Kylotan
I disagree with the assessment that you leave the loudness until the very last step.



Of course there are many things you can do during the mixing process to make a louder overall two-track mix. I'm referring to the loudness of the two-track mixdown. At least given the way I master, this requires doing tweaks at the waveform/surgical level, which can done only when you have a final two-track mix with which you can work. You can't make these kinds of tweaks when mixing.
 
For example suppose four different tracks "collide" on one note to create a big peak on three or four consecutive half-cycles. Trying to fix that through automation of the four tracks will drive you crazy. Fixing it in the two-track mix is easy, so you can reduce the level of those peaks, open up headroom, and raise the overall level without having to do dynamics control. 
 
I think that generally the best option for optimizing levels is to do so during the mastering process, but as long as you don't master at the waveform level but simply use processing, you can certainly do that in the master bus (and that's another reason why you want to have rational levels at the master bus).
 
However I also think that your mix should not need a lot except for optimizing levels, although multiband dynamics processing will affect the spectral balance and that may require subtle EQ. When I do final tweaks in Wavelab, waveform editing aside, the processing I typically use is multiband dynamics and maybe some image widening. But if you use Wavelab's feature of A/B comparisons of processed and bypassed with level compensation, you really don't hear much difference. The balance is already where it needs to be.
 
One thing I find intriguing about LANDR is it seems it would make it very convenient to get a rough idea during the mixing process of how mastering will affect the song, especially because you can audition variations among light, medium, and heavy-handed approaches.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#51
Anderton
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 10:03:36 (permalink)
vladasyn
The reason we got to talk about how limiting works is because somebody said- they would mix to -3 and then use limiter to bring it to -0.1, which to me is not a good idea. I mix to -0.1, then limit peaks by master limiter and bring it slightly higher. I still do not see a reason to mix under -3.



Loop output levels can increase by a much as +6 dB (not common, but it happens) when changing tempo. Randomized modulation effects and chorusing can produce peaks that are several dB higher than average levels. So suppose you mix to -0.1. You think everything's fine. Then a modulation effect changes the level of a track you thought was okay, or a loop output level changes during a tempo increase, and now the master bus is over -0.1. (And you were probably getting inter-sample distortion anyway during D/A conversion when you were mixing to -0.1, but that's a whole other topic.) So you reduce the levels of the two tracks that are contributing to the over, but now you've upset the balance you worked on. If you had mixed to -6 on your master bus, you wouldn't have needed to change your balance.
 
Remember that the final signal leaving the two track master bus is what feeds hardware. Hardware does not have the near-infinite headroom of SONAR's summing bus and audio engine. You can go into the red all day on individual channels, assuming your plug-ins can handle it (which as mentioned before is not a certainty), but hardware does not tolerate going into the red.
 
You can do and think whatever you want, but there are valid technical reasons for mixing to a lower level than 0 on your master bus. You can choose to abide by or ignore those reasons, it won't affect my mixes .

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#52
Beepster
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 10:25:11 (permalink)
I keep a "mastering" style chain on my "Premaster" bus (a bus just before my master that I routed everything into). This includes two stage compression, EQ, saturation, tape emu, etc. I only keep a limiter on the master bus and that only acts as ear protection if I accidentally crank something.
 
The premaster effects chain (mostly Prochannel stuff) mostly stays off. I just turn it on every so often and fiddle with it to see how the mix would respond to the various effects.
 
As the mix evolves the settings on these get less and less invasive and I'll slowly start excluding each effects because they are no longer adding anything useful. Ideally by the time I'm done the mix sounds as good or BETTER with the entire chain off.
 
This is based on advice I've received from Danny and others about not relying on any kind of mastering stage to fix stuff. The premise is if an effect on the master bus makes the mix sound significantly better then you can usually go into the mix itself and tweak something to do the same thing. It's just a matter of figuring out what that thing (or combination of things) is.
 
The result has been much more even mixes that I can't seem to make ANY better with my own mastering (but a real mastering engineer with proper tools could). So really my "mastering" projects tend to be just light limiting/raising the volume and little things like adding a bit of air or rolling off unwanted subsonic frequencies (which are mostly already gone by this point anyway).
 
So I don't mix INTO a mastering fx chain but have one setup anyway to a/b the mix with so it actually exposes problems... not cover them up.
 
Essentially I'm trying to get the mixes to be releasable as is and keep them like that until maybe one day I can either afford to get a pro to master a whack of the tunes in one go or learn enough about proper mastering (and own the tools) to do it myself.
#53
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 10:35:23 (permalink)
Actually, thinking about it, that's exactly how my projects are set up.
 
The master bus is always bypassed during my final exports.

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#54
Beepster
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 11:00:59 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
Actually, thinking about it, that's exactly how my projects are set up.
 
The master bus is always bypassed during my final exports.





It's quite possible you are one of those who contributed to me developing this workflow... so thanks for that.
 
It takes a village, aye?
 
;-)
#55
sharke
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 11:20:52 (permalink)
John T
You can mix into 2-bus processing, for sure. Lots of mixers swear by it. But that is in no sense "mastering".


Hence the phrase "mixing into" and not "mastering into" I guess!

James
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#56
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 11:35:19 (permalink)
Beepster
Bristol_Jonesey
Actually, thinking about it, that's exactly how my projects are set up.
 
The master bus is always bypassed during my final exports.





It's quite possible you are one of those who contributed to me developing this workflow... so thanks for that.
 
It takes a village, aye?
 
;-)


Aye laddie!!

CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughout
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#57
Kylotan
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 14:37:49 (permalink)
Anderton
For example suppose four different tracks "collide" on one note to create a big peak on three or four consecutive half-cycles. Trying to fix that through automation of the four tracks will drive you crazy. Fixing it in the two-track mix is easy, so you can reduce the level of those peaks, open up headroom, and raise the overall level without having to do dynamics control.

 
Sure, sometimes a bunch of reasonable track levels sum up to an excessive bus level. But sometimes a single track, or several tracks, just have too high a dynamic range, and trying to fix that in the two-track could mean you have to make a far bigger adjustment than if each of those tracks had been limited by a couple of dB in the first place. For this reason I'll always put a soft clipper on drum tracks and the percussion bus, and audition it to make sure it's not noticeably damaging the transient, and that way I know my final peaks are not going to be too high relative to the general song level.

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Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
#58
Anderton
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 17:00:37 (permalink)
Kylotan
Anderton
For example suppose four different tracks "collide" on one note to create a big peak on three or four consecutive half-cycles. Trying to fix that through automation of the four tracks will drive you crazy. Fixing it in the two-track mix is easy, so you can reduce the level of those peaks, open up headroom, and raise the overall level without having to do dynamics control.

 
Sure, sometimes a bunch of reasonable track levels sum up to an excessive bus level. But sometimes a single track, or several tracks, just have too high a dynamic range, and trying to fix that in the two-track could mean you have to make a far bigger adjustment than if each of those tracks had been limited by a couple of dB in the first place. For this reason I'll always put a soft clipper on drum tracks and the percussion bus, and audition it to make sure it's not noticeably damaging the transient, and that way I know my final peaks are not going to be too high relative to the general song level.




I'm talking about a much more specific situation than that...for example where multiple notes hit at the exact same spot. It won't matter if they're limited or not at the track level, it's the combination that causes the problem. The only difference if the transients are really squashed is that the problem will occur over a wider time range, and thus be easier to fix in other ways.
 
This is a particular problem in classical music. Although I know you're not supposed to touch classical music, I do it anyway. If I can bring up the entire piece by a couple dB just by doing surgery on a couple peaks, I think it's worth it. Just don't tell anyone I do this...I'll be arrested by the mastering police 
 
 
 
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#59
sharke
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Re: The meters are not accutate! 2016/02/17 17:53:30 (permalink)
Kylotan
Sure, sometimes a bunch of reasonable track levels sum up to an excessive bus level. But sometimes a single track, or several tracks, just have too high a dynamic range, and trying to fix that in the two-track could mean you have to make a far bigger adjustment than if each of those tracks had been limited by a couple of dB in the first place. For this reason I'll always put a soft clipper on drum tracks and the percussion bus, and audition it to make sure it's not noticeably damaging the transient, and that way I know my final peaks are not going to be too high relative to the general song level.




 
I know it's not for everyone, but I love Sausage Fattener for boosting loudness and clipping peaks on the drum bus. It sounds great set to about 8-10%. Whack it up even higher for added crunch. 

James
Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
#60
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