Heroics
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 11:17:59
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FACE it ! you all can go and smoke your "PRO" audio sequencers -.----only 32 bit capable toys ,and shiny looking .candy shop sequencers with little furry balls on the sides .............................SONAR kicks but in sound quality ,,,,,,,,,,,,,without the need of expensive DSP or whatnot ......that must truly be CRUEL to hardware manufacturers out there ? Isn´t it ? ; P
with your DSP cards , I make Jewelery at work , take the alluminium out and make earrings ....its true !
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Heroics
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 11:19:20
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I can only imagine ATM what SONAR would sound like , if I ran that beast with 96 khz 64 bit ...............
I use only 44khz ATM ,......my system is 2 slow ^^
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sharke
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 11:33:00
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jamesyoyo
I'm sorry, guys, but I refuse to believe that my computer specs and setup can cause these types of issues. I have run into some of them before, but this project (my first real big one post-Sandy, thus first with X2a) has elicited some strange behaviors that cannot be explained away. What in God's name is in my setup that could cause all the ProChannel high eq pots to run up to +16.9? Especially when it has never happened before in 6 years of using Sonar exclusively? Or cause all the faders to go back to 0? Or wipe out all my pannings? Or not allow me to push a clip to the start of a measure?
Seriously: if you haven't seen these yourselves, then God bless. But please don't go all fanboi on us and say it is something other than poorly-written and buggy-@ss code. That is an insult to all who are experiencing it.
I agree with you on this...there are some things that could be attributed to hardware setup, like audio engine instability, or could be attributed to incompatibility with plugs etc. But many of the bugs in X2 are interface and software control related, like the one you describe, and cannot possibly be anything else but bad code. Imagine if you were using Microsoft Word and sections of text were randomly switching to bold type and paragraphs were moving around without you touching them. And then someone suggested that maybe it was your printer drivers, or a faulty monitor.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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John T
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 11:36:31
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For me, I did a lot of mixing work last week, long days and extensive use of features. And I've decided to go back to X1d for a while. It hasn't be terrible, working with X2/a, but it hasn't been great, either. The things I'll miss a lot are the automation improvements and the console emulation. Smart tool improvements I'll miss a little bit. But what I'll get back is fewer crashes and the ability to use my v700 console as more than a doorstop. So while I might argue with this or that detail of these discussions, yeah, I think another patch is needed.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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jamesyoyo
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 11:42:17
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Bristol_Jonesey
James, you say "I refuse to believe that my computer specs and setup can cause these types of issues."
Trouble is, we don't know anything about your computer specs or setup, so a diagnosis is a long way off.
That's not being fanboi, that's being practical.
Jonesy, that wasn't directed to anyone on the thread when I wrote that. I had read through the other heated thread where Bub got into a tussle and wanted to avoid the snarky fanboi talking-down-to that happens when certain folks get involved. Asking specs is fine, even appreciated, but to the issues recounted above, they are completely irrelevant. Suffice to say that I am a pretty knowledgeable computer guy and don't have silly games or spyware/malware interrupting my musical endeavors. I also know how to use Sonar, as many will attest to that fact. These issues are so weird and out of my experience with Cakewalk that I had to write to vent.
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jamesyoyo
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 11:45:52
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webbs hill studio
hi james:
just curious why you upgraded to X2-was it because X1 didn`t meet your requirements or was it because X2 offered more production wise.
not being provocative but wouldn`t it be better to rollback to a version that was stable for you rather than acting as a de-facto beta tester for Roland with the obvious frustration you are experiencing,until the inevitable patch comes out?
no offense intended!
I am a loyal Cake customer and usually upgrade when available. I like having the new tools at my disposal. I have dealt with the headaches before (ahem, uhh, X1, anybody?) but the behaviors seen yesterday were beyond my frustration tolerances.
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jamesyoyo
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 11:52:50
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brconflict
3 - X2a does seem to produce some extra burden on the system or OS vs. X2 or even X1d.
This. I have the CPU meter spiking during the tune playback... I thought it was the 12 instances of z3ta2 running, but even after I have frozen all those tracks the CPU is still getting pinned. No BitBridge either, as I am using all 64-bit vsts.
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jamesyoyo
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 11:58:19
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musicroom
Bub
Beepster
I think it's all the Win8 stuff. It'd be interesting to see a comparison of the problems people are having on WIn7 vs. Win8. I don't think I've seen too many complaints from the Win8 crowd since the "a" patch. Should have been a dual release so us 7 users didn't have to be in the petri dish as well.
It's not the Windows 8 stuff. This kind of behavior has been going on in Sonar since X1's initial release. Maybe the Windows 8 crap made it worse, but it's not the cause of it.
James is not one to post up here like this. He spends 99% of his time down in the song forums.
So please ... listen to the guy. Listen to all of us ... we're not making this stuff up.
Seriously, I feel for anybody who is gets halted when working. I know it has to be maddening. I hope cake finds the cause and corrects this for you and the handful that is having problems. BUT, just because mine and other users report no problems, that does not make us fanbois or any other derogatory name thrown out here by the angry. My system works and works great. I'm not embarrassed by that. My sincere hope is for the ones having problems to get cake's support to get them corrected yesterday.
Nobody has acted like a fanboi on this thread (yet!). So don't take offense when none was given. However, the degree to which some folks' solipsism goes on display on this forum does make me cringe from time to time. Just because I had never experienced the high eq pot pinning to +16.9 prior to last night wouldn't make me doubt it couldn't happen to someone else. I have been doing this too long to think that crazy stuff can't happen with Sonar. EDIT: I just opened the project and thankfully the PC high eq pot being pinned at +16.9 has not returned. However, half of the High Mids have been increased by various amounts. Progress!
post edited by jamesyoyo - 2013/02/05 12:15:55
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 12:02:03
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I had to wiki Solipsism. :-)
Thanks for that!
best,
mike
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bapu
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 12:07:40
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James, I have to ask. Since you've not posted any specific & minute details about the project (for guys like Danny to try and duplicate), have you sent the offending project to Cake for them to evaluate? And I mean the exact project, not just a "representative" project.
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bapu
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 12:08:40
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mike_mccue
I had to wiki Solipsism. :-)
Thanks for that!
best,
mike
I had to Google wiki. Thanks for that! best, bapu 
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 12:16:12
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That was fast*
*just for bapsi
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chuckebaby
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 12:20:26
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jamesyoyo
Bristol_Jonesey
James, you say "I refuse to believe that my computer specs and setup can cause these types of issues."
Trouble is, we don't know anything about your computer specs or setup, so a diagnosis is a long way off.
That's not being fanboi, that's being practical.
Jonesy, that wasn't directed to anyone on the thread when I wrote that. I had read through the other heated thread where Bub got into a tussle and wanted to avoid the snarky fanboi talking-down-to that happens when certain folks get involved. Asking specs is fine, even appreciated, but to the issues recounted above, they are completely irrelevant. Suffice to say that I am a pretty knowledgeable computer guy and don't have silly games or spyware/malware interrupting my musical endeavors. I also know how to use Sonar, as many will attest to that fact. These issues are so weird and out of my experience with Cakewalk that I had to write to vent.
jim,i know you know your computer better than anyone here because you live with it. but thats not the point,the point is all these great minds on here might be able to help you with something you have over looked. now if you say "thats impossible,i didnt overlook anything" that would be ignorant. you have to admit yourself,not posting your specs and running about saying "unstable and buggy as all heck" screams that you want no help and would rather rant. i can only speak for myself when i say,i couldnt for one minute push away help when i really needed it due to thinking i did a full check of my own system. even if you post them and dont reply,atleast you have ideas. unless your afraid someone is going to zoom in something and say thats your problem,i could understand that. but at this point what do you really have to lose,except learning something you didnt know?
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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bapu
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 12:21:57
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mike_mccue
That was fast*
*just for bapsi
See? .zipx Just sayin' BTW, Jim, I'm sorry for McQ/Bapu OT joking.
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brconflict
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 12:25:58
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bapu
mike_mccue
I had to wiki Solipsism. :-)
Thanks for that!
best,
mike
I had to Google wiki.
Thanks for that!
best,
bapu
I had to ask Siri about Google. She said they broke up months ago.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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dubdisciple
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 14:02:47
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These threads illustrate what should be obvious by now; user experience is going to vary tremendously. No amount of beta testing is ever going to eliminate the Achilles hill of windows software. That being the infinite configurations. You can run beta software through strenuous testing cycles and eliminate every bug you find and eventually it will come across some variable when officially released that it did not encounter during testing. The tight control apple maintains over hardware is probably Mac's biggest advantage over PC's. X2 seems to work fine for me so far, but I realize that means nothing to the person that it is giving fits too. By the same token, I have yet to come across a piece of advanced user installed software that works perfectly for every customer. The on thing I can suggest is the user goes back to whatever did work until Sonar can get a finger on what Sonar does not like about his particular setup.
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brconflict
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 14:13:10
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dubdisciple
These threads illustrate what should be obvious by now; user experience is going to vary tremendously. No amount of beta testing is ever going to eliminate the Achilles hill of windows software. That being the infinite configurations. You can run beta software through strenuous testing cycles and eliminate every bug you find and eventually it will come across some variable when officially released that it did not encounter during testing. The tight control apple maintains over hardware is probably Mac's biggest advantage over PC's. X2 seems to work fine for me so far, but I realize that means nothing to the person that it is giving fits too. By the same token, I have yet to come across a piece of advanced user installed software that works perfectly for every customer. The on thing I can suggest is the user goes back to whatever did work until Sonar can get a finger on what Sonar does not like about his particular setup.
Good point about Apple. This bring in the balance between cost vs. stability ins the software and OS. If you don't spend the extra $$ on a Mac Pro, for example, you have to accept that you will be willing to lose some of the confidence in reliability and stability such a system offers. Unfortunately, having been a Mac user as well as a PC user for years, I can honestly say that Mac's are really no better in my case. I've had more hardware failures and just as many lock-ups, freeze-ups and other issues that I have with PCs. I'm not saying I get these issues all the time, but I can't fully argue that Macs are better. I can only argue that they cost much more than PCs and hold their value longer. AppleCare necessary.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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dubdisciple
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 14:27:47
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brconflict, thanks for pointing that out before this degenerated into a Mac versus PC debate. I was certainly not trying to imply Apple was better. IMO they are overpriced but imo more stable for the average consumer. For power users running more advanced software, I think the stability issue gap closes some. My only intention was pointing out that it the challenge of consistency rises the more variables are thrown in.
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Beepster
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 15:11:17
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I was considering a Mac Mini when Garage Band 2 came out. Problem was I was using a PCI interface back then. I'm still kind of curious what I could make a Mini do. I've never used a Mac before. I have USB interface now so I THINK that would solve one problem. I keep hearing that Macs still have a tendency to bug out and I've never liked the idea of not being able to replace parts myself. Meh... if I had the cash I'd have computers and programs of different flavors all over my studio. For now my current beast and Sonar will have to do. It seems to do what I need it to even if I have to wrestle with it sometimes. I am intrigued by the new Cubase but the bugger is only 32 bit. Not sure what that would even mean for my needs really. All I know is 64 bit seems to be where everything is heading and something about 32 bit not using all my 16 gigs of RAM.
Meh. I remember when all I had to do was plug in and shred out. lol
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bapu
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 15:19:00
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James, GodDanglingParticiple might say you should to try Mixmaster. If I understand him correctly, you just use a soundblaster card with that thing and it "just works".
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guitardood
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 15:22:01
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jamesyoyo
Seriously: if you haven't seen these yourselves, then God bless. But please don't go all fanboi on us and say it is something other than poorly-written and buggy-@ss code. That is an insult to all who are experiencing it.
+1
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brconflict
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 15:46:58
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dubdisciple
brconflict, thanks for pointing that out before this degenerated into a Mac versus PC debate. I was certainly not trying to imply Apple was better. IMO they are overpriced but imo more stable for the average consumer. For power users running more advanced software, I think the stability issue gap closes some. My only intention was pointing out that it the challenge of consistency rises the more variables are thrown in.
Yeah, really, to close the argument from anyone with hardware issues that disparate, or varying hardware platforms can induce, it makes sense to also mention that there are systems available from Sweetwater that are verified and tailored for DAW use (Macs and PCs). Otherwise, you're right that it makes sense to point out that anytime the software bugs crop up, it does include the "normality" in hardware with it, something we know Cakewalk can't test every combination of. With that said, I would like to see Cakewalk (if I haven't overlooked it already) list out hardware they have tested Sonar with or at least brands they recommend most. That information brings a sort of favorability in hardware (picking winners and losers), but just as with Microsoft, who includes their own drivers for many hardware manufacturers, these same hardware-makers can just as easily submit test hardware to Cakewalk for a "qualification" session, paying a little sum to have their hardware validated. It would at least help rid some of the discussions of rare or old hardware, or really, help those who run into issues not knowing what hardware would be the best to shoot for. I think that would be helpful to me.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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miguelito
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 15:51:49
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I am intrigued by the new Cubase but the bugger is only 32 bit. Beep: I think you will find that C7 is 64bit. At least that is what Steinberg's doc's say. I can let you know for sure this Friday. Regards
Mike A Roseberry racer w/ Win7 Pro (64) fully loaded RME UFX Fireface; Sonar X2; Guitars and amps. Axon 100 MKII, M-Audio Keystation Pro 88, Komplete All software latest revision
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bapu
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 15:59:06
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brconflict
With that said, I would like to see Cakewalk (if I haven't overlooked it already) list out hardware they have tested Sonar with or at least brands they recommend most. That information brings a sort of favorability in hardware (picking winners and losers), but just as with Microsoft, who includes their own drivers for many hardware manufacturers, these same hardware-makers can just as easily submit test hardware to Cakewalk for a "qualification" session, paying a little sum to have their hardware validated. It would at least help rid some of the discussions of rare or old hardware, or really, help those who run into issues not knowing what hardware would be the best to shoot for. I think that would be helpful to me.
On paper that sounds so right. But in practice, the CakeBakers cannot test every permutation of (let alone their own) VSTs and VSTis in the same fashion that the "200" users mentioned above will do. Users are notorious for coming up with scenarios that (at first) baffle developers.
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Splat 
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 16:04:58
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@brconflict....
Exactly. Those who specifically have stability issues need to state what they've done to try and get it working.. Or just carry on debating about hunches.
Workflow and ui issues, yeah cake needs to fix.
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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bapu
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 16:07:49
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Given that I own nearly every major VST plugin on the market, I'd be willing to offer the time to try and duplicate the problem if a member would give me their exact project (and I'd sign and NDA for the song/project too boot).
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 16:07:52
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bapu
Users are notorious for coming up with scenarios that (at first) baffle developers. A metronome button that does something when you press on it?
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bapu
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 16:08:49
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bapu
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 16:09:57
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mike_mccue
bapu
Users are notorious for coming up with scenarios that (at first) baffle developers.
A metronome button that does something when you press on it?
Hmmmmm. I just pressed mine and it did nothing (until I pressed play or record that is). Problem solved. Next!!!!
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Beepster
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Re:The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck
2013/02/05 16:14:11
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miguelito
I am intrigued by the new Cubase but the bugger is only 32 bit.
Beep: I think you will find that C7 is 64bit. At least that is what Steinberg's doc's say. I can let you know for sure this Friday.
Regards
Ah, good. Don't get me wrong. I'd still be using Sonar for a lot of writing, sounds, effects but after using Nuendo for so long when it comes down to editing and final mixes I think that might just be a more comfortable solution. It's also a bit of a name recognition problem too if I start taking on clients. I'm not sure how well people will react if I only have Sonar in my toolbox. Even if I did most of the work in Sonar just being able to say "Cubase" might help give the illusion that I know what the heck I'm doing... even if I don't lol Pro Tools can piss off though. I will do my best to avoid Avid if at all possible. Sounds like the industry is starting to realize the emperor has no clothes anyway so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Cheers.
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