musicroom

Bub

Beepster

I think it's all the Win8 stuff. It'd be interesting to see a comparison of the problems people are having on WIn7 vs. Win8. I don't think I've seen too many complaints from the Win8 crowd since the "a" patch. Should have been a dual release so us 7 users didn't have to be in the petri dish as well.

It's not the Windows 8 stuff. This kind of behavior has been going on in Sonar since X1's initial release. Maybe the Windows 8 crap made it worse, but it's not the cause of it.

James is not one to post up here like this. He spends 99% of his time down in the song forums.

So please ... listen to the guy. Listen to all of us ... we're not making this stuff up.

Seriously, I feel for anybody who is gets halted when working. I know it has to be maddening. I hope cake finds the cause and corrects this for you and the handful that is having problems.  BUT, just because mine and other users report no problems, that does not make us fanbois or any other derogatory name thrown out here by the angry. My system works and works great. I'm not embarrassed by that. My sincere hope is for the ones having problems to get cake's support to get them corrected yesterday.

I don't mean to offend.  Nor do I wish to start another argument, but.....   All of the "I'm having no problems, it must be you or your setup" type posts are about as helpful as a heart attack.  Just slightly better than having a bunch of "me too" type posts.   It sounds like the guy is having legitimate problems.  When people post their "I'm not having any problem" posts you come off as either  fanbois or braggarts, the equivalent of posting "mine works, neener neener".  To be perfectly honest, someone coming here, already frustrated with bugs (or in some cases, perceived bugs), is not interested that YOUR setup works great.  He/She are hoping that someone else may have had a similar problem and has either found a work-around or an actual solution.  Whether or not they've contacted tech-support does not matter, especially when the common solution tech support offers is to reinstall.

Most people here complain about the occasional flame-baiters, but did you ever stop to think that the reason they come here to aggravate is that folks here get aggravated?   In the 'godparticle' post, that kid is probably having the time of his effing life knowing that he set off everybody here.

While I'm on the soapbox, let me say this.  The biggest problem with Sonar, IMHO, is Microsoft, Microsoft Windows & Microsoft's sub-par (and in many cases, crippled) development tools that lend to writing crappy code with library routines that go off the deep end without any provocation.  Library routines that I might add are specifically counted on by programmer's to be better than beta-versions.   Most definitely due to the egomaniacal power trip that Microsoft has been on for the last 15 years.

I've been a Cakewalk/Sonar user since Cakewalk v1.0 on my Compaq sewing-machine sized portable with my Roland MPU-401 and Roland MT-32.   Most of the tracks on my Soundclick page (http://www.soundclick.com/ChuckFletcher) were done in Sonar (or more specifically Pro Audio 9) with my Les Paul Studio, a Tom Scholz Rockman and a Roland JV-30).  I am the quintessential fanboi and have been for quite some time.  I'm also a computer systems programmer for over 25 years.  Suffice to say that my resume as a programmer is longer that most of these argument posts and reads like a slimmed down version of War and Peace.

Many people like to blame the Hardware/Drivers.  Total BS.  The problem is Microsoft and their entire kernel/driver architecture.   All the driver manufacturer's get the same documentation from microsoft, the same libraries from microsoft, the same architecture from microsoft, and all share a uncanny similar flakiness.   I personally blame the common denominator, Microsoft.  Pardon my crudeness, but I would gladly donate my left testicle for a version of Sonar on OSX.

I've recently jumped ship to a Hackintosh with ProTools 10 (yes, I purchased both OSX Lion and ProTools).  Not very happy with some of the problems with ProTools.  Their delay-compensation (or lack there-of despite it being touted as a feature) being the biggest problem and pretty much a deal-breaker.  I do at least like their grid lines and snap-to-grid capabilities as well as their nudge capabilities to slide my off tracks back into the rhythmic space in which they were recorded. One thing that works a little bit better than Sonar's.   Next, that I have 3 motu 2408mk3's, a 24/IO and 2 8pres and can only use 32 of my 118 inputs in ProTools.  Not necessarily  use record only 32, but you can only have 32 active which makes patching in outboard gear a huge pain when you need to use it.  Kind of a deal breaker also.  As soon as I can, I'm going to plunk down the dough and try DP8 next.  It looks pretty impressive, but unfortunately they do not have a free trial.

From an OS standpoint, I will say this: my system is EXACTLY the same hardware/mobo I was using under Win7 (and even still can boot to Win7 & Sonar) runs flawlessly under Lion.  The only problem with the hackintosh (though a bit of a misnomer since the only real hacking was in getting it to boot initially) which I couldn't hack was getting the mobo's internal sound device functioning.  Why is it I can run an operating system that was specifically not designed for my hardware with rock-solid stability than the OS which was written specifically for my hardware?  I don't have the answer, but logic suggests that the problem is in fact Microsoft.  My components consist of a Motu PCI-424, 4 UAD-1 cards in a Magma PCI Chassis with a mid-line NVidia card driving dual monitors.   The system has never been more stable.  I even have an advantage over an actual Mac in that there is not a current Mac on the market that would allow me to continue using my 4 UAD-1 PCI cards with the magma chassis and I would otherwise have to upgrade to the UAD-2 platform which I don't really need at this time.

All that being said, I've not abandoned Sonar completely otherwise I wouldn't be lurking in this forum any longer.  Also, there are still a few very knowledgeable and helpful folks here that offer plenty of advice, much of which could be applied to any DAW and are valuable resources for whom to be very grateful.

My recent dissatisfaction with Sonar which led me down the dark path towards PT is that my mixes have been translating very muddy to other platforms.  Despite have a dbx DriveRack to tune the monitors (hardware equivalent of ARC).  Despite room treatment.  It's not my ears as my mixes did not have this problem with previous versions of Sonar/ProAudio.  It almost appears, to me, that the mix busses are compressing rather than clipping as they should.  The biggest fail though was my attempt to get some help here.  Much of the advice put the onus of the muddy mixes on my engineering skills.  While I didn't respond negatively and took what was said in stride, it was not quite as helpful as I what I had been used to from the folks in this forum.   A good rule of thumb should be to, at the very least, read a poster's post IN IT'S ENTIRETY before chiming in with from-the-hip advice that is not helpful and in many cases irrelevant.

For anyone wishing to diss my creds, here is an album which I was both co-producer and primary engineer: http://www.gizzae.com/Roots.html  It didn't sell very well and they are now providing the tracks on the band's website, but here is the CD-universe link for anyone who would like a physical CD with the great artwork that they commissioned: http://www.cduniverse.com...ctinfo.asp?pid=7700049

This album was partially recorded on two ADATS which had to be SMTPE syncd (absolutely painful) into Sonar 7.  The horns and some vocals were recorded in my studio through Motu 8pres (SM57's for the horns and a Rode NTK2 for the room ambience on the horns and the NTK2 as the primary for some vocals and a CAD M9 for the rest of the vocals) into Sonar 7.  All tracks were mixed in Sonar 7/8.  They were sent out for Mastering to a very highly acclaimed mastering engineer here in Chicago.  Hindsight being 20/20, perhaps there is a bit too much compression on the horn sections, but the mixes are very far from being muddy.

For those whom I've offended, sorry as that was not my intent.  For those whom I've complimented, you know who you are and are very much appreciated.

Best,
guitardood

P.S. Here's a copy of my first PT mix, a cover of Santana's Samba Pa Ti (bear in mind, despite my handle, I'm no virtuoso and still need a lot of work on the vamp solos), but the overall mix sounds leaps and bounds better and was created with a lot less additional EQ than on X2.  http://www.musicpreview.c..._cover_Samba_Pa_Ti.mp3

Roots guy sounds like Bob. Nice! Sounded good streamed from my iPad iToy to my apple tv iToy so listening on my stereo system. 

My first real PC was a CompuPro S-100 system back in 1981. It was huge. Two cases a couple of feet square, each at least 6" high. Z80, 64K static ram, CP/M. One of the cases was just to house two 8" 256k floppy disk drives.

Anybody remember Jerry Pournelle and Byte magazine ? "Buy an S-100 machine and you'll never be obsolete !" Well, he was Wrong. 10 000$ wrong.

My next system was immensely more powerful. A 1990 Compaq DeskPro 386/25e with an Intel 386, a 20mb hard drive and windows 3.1. That thing was a beast.

guitardood

For anyone wishing to diss my creds, here is an album which I was both co-producer and primary engineer: http://www.gizzae.com/Roots.html  It didn't sell very well and they are now providing the tracks on the band's website, but here is the CD-universe link for anyone who would like a physical CD with the great artwork that they commissioned: http://www.cduniverse.com...ctinfo.asp?pid=7700049

This album was partially recorded on two ADATS which had to be SMTPE syncd (absolutely painful) into Sonar 7.  The horns and some vocals were recorded in my studio through Motu 8pres (SM57's for the horns and a Rode NTK2 for the room ambience on the horns and the NTK2 as the primary for some vocals and a CAD M9 for the rest of the vocals) into Sonar 7.  All tracks were mixed in Sonar 7/8.  They were sent out for Mastering to a very highly acclaimed mastering engineer here in Chicago.  Hindsight being 20/20, perhaps there is a bit too much compression on the horn sections, but the mixes are very far from being muddy.

Great sounding stuff! As for the horns being too compressed, I always thought the horns in Reggae/Lover's rock were very compressed sounding anyway, it's the style no? I'm thinking for instance of the horn parts in John McClean's beautiful "If I Gave My Heart To You" for instance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk1wwtaG61k


I love the tonal balance of this kind of music...bright sounding with a nice heavy low end. Reggae style mixes have always impressed me. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk1wwtaG61k

sharke

guitardood

For anyone wishing to diss my creds, here is an album which I was both co-producer and primary engineer: http://www.gizzae.com/Roots.html  It didn't sell very well and they are now providing the tracks on the band's website, but here is the CD-universe link for anyone who would like a physical CD with the great artwork that they commissioned: http://www.cduniverse.com...ctinfo.asp?pid=7700049

This album was partially recorded on two ADATS which had to be SMTPE syncd (absolutely painful) into Sonar 7.  The horns and some vocals were recorded in my studio through Motu 8pres (SM57's for the horns and a Rode NTK2 for the room ambience on the horns and the NTK2 as the primary for some vocals and a CAD M9 for the rest of the vocals) into Sonar 7.  All tracks were mixed in Sonar 7/8.  They were sent out for Mastering to a very highly acclaimed mastering engineer here in Chicago.  Hindsight being 20/20, perhaps there is a bit too much compression on the horn sections, but the mixes are very far from being muddy.

Great sounding stuff! As for the horns being too compressed, I always thought the horns in Reggae/Lover's rock were very compressed sounding anyway, it's the style no? I'm thinking for instance of the horn parts in John McClean's beautiful "If I Gave My Heart To You" for instance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk1wwtaG61k


I love the tonal balance of this kind of music...bright sounding with a nice heavy low end. Reggae style mixes have always impressed me. 

Thanks Sharke.  It was a great project to have been involved in.  I was blown away by the two different horn sections who sat and in three or four rehearsals, wrote their parts on the fly.   I even had to pull a trick out of the bag on one of the Sax solos.  The song Freedom Time had a sax solo recorded on the ADAT's that had the first part sounding great, but the middle solo needed some polish.  We had the guy come down and re-record the whole sax part.  He nailed the solo, but he could not recreate the magic on the opening part.  We wound up playing back the ADAT version through a monitor which we then miked up the same as we did for his live performance to try and get the two disparate pieces to blend sonically.



Sonar, btw, performed phenomenally.  Each song was about 75 tracks.  The only synth stuff on those tracks were the obvious synth sounds.  Everything else was live performances, including a ton of percussion.   I was using a single Firewire 400 drive to stream all 75 tracks and Sonar7 and then Sonar8, did a wonderful job.  A few minor problems and a few crashes requiring reboot, but I would give Sonar an AAA+ rating for it's part on the project.


I wasn't really fishing for compliments and truly wanted to make a point, but thanks again for your kind feedback.


Best,
guitardood

The newest C++ libraries on my system are the ones installed by Sonar X2a. It may be my imagination but I have had many more system issues since that install, as well as Issues in X2a tied to the Pro Channel and plug in manager. I'm going to see about a new machine tomorrow because I now want to isolate my Sonar system from everything else. 

I want my 1040ST back. Now that was a DAW.

I'm just throwing in my 2 cents.....

Seen a lot of negative comments about Sonar over the years on this board, but I'm happy to report that I have been a fan of Cakewalk since day one (1992 in fact!). Sonar X2 Producer has been a dream for my workflow, X1 was great too. I use it on a daily basis and do some heavy orchestral soundtrack work with it, along with live recordings. The only time it crashed was when I used the 32bit version of Z3ta through J-Bridge (not sure why, but it doesn't like it). Honestly though, that is really it! Stable as hell, and always pulls through for me. And yes, I have tried/owned the other major DAW's and believe me, they all have their issues. I must admit, Digital Performer 8 looks pretty enticing, but I would only switch for the video features (plus it's $800).

I only have two suggestion for Sonar improvements:

1) Create a feature similar to Cubase 7's "Chord Track".

2) Develop more strength in the video features.

But really, these aren't even gripes! Anyways, just wanted to throw in a positive note to this thread.

Sonar patches call C++ updates. I wouldn't load another update till X2B whereby another C++ update may be installed.

CakeAlexS


Sonar patches call C++ updates. I wouldn't load another update till X2B whereby another C++ update may be installed.

+1000 for this one.


Just to add a little "why" to this:  Say Cakewalk is using version 1.3.0231 of the C++ libraries to develop Sonar and distribute that version's redistributable with Sonar.   Next you install VSampler (just a name I picked out of thin air) which hasn't been updated in a while and was written to version 1.2.812 of the C++ libraries and installs that version of the redistributable with VSampler, could potentially cause a problem.  Also, say you install SlickerThanSlicedBread Compressor which uses version 1.3.4821 of the C++ libs and redistributes that with their product, it will overwrite the versions used to create sonar and potentially create a problem.  This is not Cake's fault, VSampler's fault or STSB Compressor's fault. 

This is Microsoft's fault.  This problem has been plaguing windows systems since Windows95 with MSVCP versions being downgraded by installing older software or upgraded by installing newer software to the point that it sometimes breaks Windows as well as some previously installed application. 

They have sort of resolved this, somewhat, by at least providing different libraries for their major releases (i.e. MSVCP5 for version 5, MSVCP6 for 6,etc)  but unfortunately with bug fixes and windows updates, even a supposed sideways move from MSVCP7.231 to MSVCP7.243 could potentially break software if either a bug that was counted on is now "fixed" or a new bug was introduced. 

And to the doubters that say "it is not possible that installing sonar (or any other application which updates system-wide libraries for that matter) broke windows", think again.   This particular scenario makes it completely possible if a driver manufacturer wrote their driver software with MSVCP7.231 and now after sonar, it is MSVCP7.243 or any other possible disparity between the lib used to develop vs the currently installed runtime lib version, could potentially break their driver and/or service which could potentially end up in a BSOD and prevent booting. 

Again, not Cake's fault, not the hardware or manufacturer's fault, but good ole Microsoft.  But don't believe me.  Just do a quick google search for "msvcrt version resolved" or "msvcp version resolved" and read through some of the 1.2 million results regarding this particular issue.  I've been complaining about this for quite a while that sandboxing apps to have their required libs in their own space and leave the \windows\system32 versions alone, would probably resolve at least 25% of the BSOD's of the Windows world.  As would differentiating between drivers required for windows to boot (a la safe-mode) and drivers for other pieces of hardware which should loaded in a separate memory space and not be allowed to crash the entire operating system.  If I need my files, I don't care if the bluetooth driver has a problem, just get me to my files.  Unfortunately, instead of concentrating on these difficult to solve problems, MS presents us with Metro. 

Sorry for another rant in the same thread.  Just a real hot button issue for me.  Hopefully somebody appreciated the little bit of enlightenment. 


Best,
guitardood


P.S.  My apologies to JamesYoYo for kind of hijacking your post.

jscomposer

The only time it crashed was when I used the 32bit version of Z3ta through J-Bridge (not sure why, but it doesn't like it).

Works fine here through J-Bridge ... must be your system.

Have you updated every single driver for every component of your computer? All the BIOS for your Motherboard, Video Card, and Audio Card?

System specs ... we need to see some system specs. Otherwise, we can't really help you.





Welcome to the forum jscomposer.

guitardood
but the overall mix sounds leaps and bounds better and was created with a lot less additional EQ than on X2.  http://www.musicpreview.c..._cover_Samba_Pa_Ti.mp3

Hasn't the rumor been long since quashed that all DAWs "sound" the same and that one mix being better than the other is not the DAWs merit but the merit belongs to the person and VSTs?

Conar


@guitarhood, if microsoft is the problem, how do you explain Reason, StudioOne or even Live running much smoother on a microsoft OS -

To reiterate Bristol_Jonesey's Q, "Smoother than what?"   When Windows works, it works great.  My problem is not stability, I micromanage all applications installed on my machines, am painfully aware of this issue and don't install any voodo-ware.  Most average user's aren't as retentive nor are most users even aware of this issue, hence my post.  All I was doing was pointing out that it's also too easy for the installation of an application to hose other apps and potentially the entire OS, BY DEISGN.  It is a major design flaw which has existed since day one and hasn't been addressed by MS except in the most minimalist way and could be a potential cause for the many folks running "flawlessly" while others are experiencing, in some cases, show stopping issues.

We current and former Windows programmers have a joke:
       Q:"What's the best platform for Microsoft Windows?"
       A: "35mm Slides"

Best,
guitardood

bapu

guitardood
but the overall mix sounds leaps and bounds better and was created with a lot less additional EQ than on X2.  http://www.musicpreview.c..._cover_Samba_Pa_Ti.mp3

Hasn't the rumor been long since quashed that all DAWs "sound" the same and that one mix being better than the other is not the DAWs merit but the merit belongs to the person and VSTs?

Don't know who supposedly quashed the "rumour", I'm just reporting my actual frustration with a problem and my experience in resolving the issue.  Under X2 on the same mix (Yamaha motif for all instruments other than the live guitar), I needed to put a high shelf at 10k (q=.76) of almost 12 db in some cases to get the mix to sound flat when translated.  I'm not blaming Sonar entirely as I feel my KRK V8s are partially responsible due to their over emphasis on the highs and are certainly not the best "reference" monitors despite their price of $499 each and $900 for the sub.  Perhaps you should reread my statement which you quoted.  I'm not saying pro tools sounds better, I'm saying my mix, on the same hardware with the same room and same monitors and same ears, when translated to other platforms (i.e. car stereo, boom box, living room 5.1 system, laptop speakers)  sounds leaps and bound better without major EQ surgery on the two track mix.  Or to be more accurate:  They sound the same, after I applied a 6 db shelf on the lows and a 12db shelf on the highs to the Sonar version of the two track mix down which was not required on the PT version.   Granted there is not supposed to be a difference, but unfortunately there is a difference and again it sound's as if Sonar (since X1) is compressing bus inputs rather than allowing them to clip.  I haven't looked at Sonar's source code so this is entirely conjecture on my part in an attempt to explain the difference in mixes from one platform to another.  And again, for the record,  I'M A FANBOI!

Best,
guitardood

jscomposer

Bub

jscomposer

The only time it crashed was when I used the 32bit version of Z3ta through J-Bridge (not sure why, but it doesn't like it).

Works fine here through J-Bridge ... must be your system.

Have you updated every single driver for every component of your computer? All the BIOS for your Motherboard, Video Card, and Audio Card?

System specs ... we need to see some system specs. Otherwise, we can't really help you.





Welcome to the forum jscomposer.

Thanks for your willingness to help! The Z3ta thing isn't a big deal, but it would be nice to know what the issue is. Here are my specs:
 
i7 2700K
Mobo: Gigabyte GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3
32GB Ram
Win 7 Pro 64bit
Sonar X2 (haven't done the update yet, maybe that's the issue??)
3 x 1TB HDD
2 x 128GB SSD
Video: AMD Radeon HD 6500
 
Thanks! Any suggestions appreciated.

I was being sarcastic. ;) That's why I put the smiley's in there.

But the real question is ... why are you running Z3ta through Jbridge? It's 64bit. If you are running a 64bit system, you should be using the 64bit version of Z3ta ... Y/N/M?

The VC++ redistributables have been installed as Side-by-Side assemblies since VC++ 2005. There are multiple copies of those DLLs in your c:\windows\WinSxS directory and programs declare either a specific version to load or ask for the most recent minor version. It can even handle locally installed copies of these DLLs. The DLL Hell scenario you describe doesn't apply.

Not to say there can't still be problems with this system. Most of the search results from your suggested term seem to be related to having the proper redist packages installed or installed correctly.