The verdict: X2a is not good. Unstable and buggy as all heck

Working on a pretty involved electronica tune with 40+ tracks.
 
The amount of glitches (not sound, but software) that I have encountered has really left a bad taste in my mouth.
 
Autosave works whenever it wants. It has no correlation to the settings I have.
 
 
I cut clips and they refuse to move (no matter if I have Snap To Grid on or not) to the first tick of the measure unless I remove the offset in the clip pane. I honestly have never seen that offset thing happen before. Then, later they move again! And if I try to nudge them back into position, they disappear!

I have a 1/4 measure tempo change in bar 70. Bouncing synths has shown everything after that measure to be offset late. 
 
The kicker is the ProChannel. I just had a glitch where EVERY HIGH BAND IS SUDDENLY NAILED TO +16. As I got to each track and take it back to 0, the graph doesn't budge. I have to turn off the eq to get the graph correct.
 
Seriously, Cake: WTF? I have been with you guys since v6, and this stuff just. keeps. coming.

Hey James!

I've had a lot of problems with X2a (which I installed this week) ... but its better than 853 ... my former 3-legged horse.

I have a similar apparent problems with the clips ... 'sometimes' not moving after slicing them.  I'd have to 'work-around' in various ways :).

X2a is not that elequent, but enveloping tracks 'seems' faster now (most of the time).

ProChannel EQ "HIGH BAND" woes?

 ... I'm hoping that's a Sonnitus EQ *crossover-bug* or something (in my case, I've imported several projects from 853 where Sonitus EQ doesn't update to PC-EQ quite well ... and gets erratic.

Bouncing Synths has had other peculiarities for me (like girthless drums and such) ... so I usually export synth audios to the windows-desktop at 0-volume and no effects and drag it back into the project.

('Hopefully an X2b is around the corner)

Blessings,

This verdict for you!!X2 is the best PRO DAW in the market for me.Best

Yes I am seeing some real quirky things happen also in X2a, however I'm yet to seen the pro channel eq glitch.

I had a new one happen to me tonight - slip editing a clip while playing the project and all of a sudden there was no audio from any of the clips on the same track as the one I edited! It was as if that track was magically muted after I edited one clip. The only cure was to re-open the project.

I installed X2 along side 8.53 on XP. I then installed Win 8 over the top of that installation and added X2A. I had all sorts of major problems. Cakewalk support suggested a clean reinstall of X2+X2A deleting all registry entries. I decided to go one step further and re-install Win 8 on a clean C Drive and then installed X2 + X2A.

The difference in X2A functionality was striking. Most of my issues, and all the big ones, went away. I still have some minor bugs (mute button in mute/solo group, C++ runtime error when exiting X2A project with Virus TI which is probably not Cakes fault anyway ) but nothing stopping me getting work done.

If you are having problems, if you can, try a clean install (or at least delete Sonar registry entries). it made a big difference for me.

"nor my Roland UA-101"

I use two UA-101 together (for recording, to get 16 tracks) without any problem.

But i use a dedicated laptop (HP DV7), and, when i upgrade, i make a complete reinstallation : first the OS (for me Win 7/64), then the MS updates of the OS, then the UA101 driver, then X1 and X1d, then X2, then X2a (so i have X1d and X2a side by side on my desk), then third-party plugs if needed.

No plugs from outside (except Voxengo Span and Flux Stereo Tools, and soon Fabfilter Deesser - and maybe Valhallaverb), which is easier since there is a lot of good included plugs (at least for me ! : Sonitus, PC2A, PC4K Comp and Gate, QuadCurve, Concrete Limiter, Breverb, etc), no internet, no wi fi, no bluetooth, nothing but OS and Sonar.

I didn't need to tweak the PC (although it is not actually up-to-date : i7 720 QM 1,6 MHz), and it is pretty stable.

I recommend everybody to be very careful with tweaking and with modify the registry.

I bought my first PC in 1984  (a Compaq AT286 !), and i tweaked all my PCs a lot during all these years.
In fact, there were a real problem of performance in these days, but now, with the modern processors, the amount of ram, etc, i think that very often "the cure is worse than the disease" (as we say in french). 
Be careful also with third party plugs : it is sure that too many plugs, not enough checked, decrease the stability.

I remember 1984 : nobody could dream to have as much power in the box, and to run a software like X2 (even with its bugs !).
And when i worked in the studio in the early '70, it was absolutely unthinkable !
So i'am always amazed by it all.

I'm sorry, guys, but I refuse to believe that my computer specs and setup can cause these types of issues. I have run into some of them before, but this project (my first real big one post-Sandy, thus first with X2a) has elicited some strange behaviors that cannot be explained away. What in God's name is in my setup that could cause all the ProChannel high eq pots to run up to +16.9? Especially when it has never happened before in 6 years of using Sonar exclusively? Or cause all the faders to go back to 0? Or wipe out all my pannings? Or not allow me to push a clip to the start of a measure?

Seriously: if you haven't seen these yourselves, then God bless. But please don't go all fanboi on us and say it is something other than poorly-written and buggy-@ss code. That is an insult to all who are experiencing it.

TS


"nor my Roland UA-101"

I use two UA-101 together (for recording, to get 16 tracks) without any problem.

But i use a dedicated laptop (HP DV7), and, when i upgrade, i make a complete reinstallation : first the OS (for me Win 7/64), then the MS updates of the OS, then the UA101 driver, then X1 and X1d, then X2, then X2a (so i have X1d and X2a side by side on my desk), then third-party plugs if needed.

No plugs from outside (except Voxengo Span and Flux Stereo Tools, and soon Fabfilter Deesser - and maybe Valhallaverb), which is easier since there is a lot of good included plugs (at least for me ! : Sonitus, PC2A, PC4K Comp and Gate, QuadCurve, Concrete Limiter, Breverb, etc), no internet, no wi fi, no bluetooth, nothing but OS and Sonar.

I didn't need to tweak the PC (although it is not actually up-to-date : i7 720 QM 1,6 MHz), and it is pretty stable.

I recommend everybody to be very careful with tweaking and with modify the registry.

I bought my first PC in 1984  (a Compaq AT286 !), and i tweaked all my PCs a lot during all these years.
In fact, there were a real problem of performance in these days, but now, with the modern processors, the amount of ram, etc, i think that very often "the cure is worse than the disease" (as we say in french). 
Be careful also with third party plugs : it is sure that too many plugs, not enough checked, decrease the stability.

I remember 1984 : nobody could dream to have as much power in the box, and to run a software like X2 (even with its bugs !).
And when i worked in the studio in the early '70, it was absolutely unthinkable !
So i'am always amazed by it all.

Yeah....I have Sony Vegas Pro on the same system that handles it just fine with no issues.
The UA-101 also handles everything else fine....except X2a.
If a system that will run Vegas Pro with no issues can't run X2a....well what is one think that
knows how intense Vegas Pro is? I know what I think. X2a needs a big fix.
 

James, you say "I refuse to believe that my computer specs and setup can cause these types of issues."

Trouble is, we don't know anything about your computer specs or setup, so a diagnosis is a long way off.

That's not being fanboi, that's being practical.

Bub

Beepster

I think it's all the Win8 stuff. It'd be interesting to see a comparison of the problems people are having on WIn7 vs. Win8. I don't think I've seen too many complaints from the Win8 crowd since the "a" patch. Should have been a dual release so us 7 users didn't have to be in the petri dish as well.

It's not the Windows 8 stuff. This kind of behavior has been going on in Sonar since X1's initial release. Maybe the Windows 8 crap made it worse, but it's not the cause of it.

James is not one to post up here like this. He spends 99% of his time down in the song forums.

So please ... listen to the guy. Listen to all of us ... we're not making this stuff up.

Seriously, I feel for anybody who is gets halted when working. I know it has to be maddening. I hope cake finds the cause and corrects this for you and the handful that is having problems.  BUT, just because mine and other users report no problems, that does not make us fanbois or any other derogatory name thrown out here by the angry. My system works and works great. I'm not embarrassed by that. My sincere hope is for the ones having problems to get cake's support to get them corrected yesterday.

jim im sorry to hear about this.
i happen to respect your opinion very much.
sad thing is if it was anyone else i would probably be telling them to update their sig so we can help them.
i know i can be shallow at times and fanboish.

it could very well be some of the updates that were put in place for windows 8.
was it working okay up to the point where you put the patch on?

let me apologize first for some of the people who are going to bash you,confusing you with a cake basher.
i know your one of the loyal users who must be frustrated beyond belief with this.
but also dont you confuse people giving there honest opinion with people you believe might be fan bio's,thats not fair either. 

i wish i could share the disapontment just to consolodate you but i cant.
X2 has been running smooth here for me and ive been beating it to death
(one of the reasons i havent been around as much)
ive put hours and hours on it with very little issues.

i know you said the pro channel,are there any other plug ins on those tracks that could be offending ?
ive been able to trace back anything thats happen to me so far to third party plug ins.
thats not saying thats the only problem,but to me its been the main contributor.
i wish the best for you jim.your a good guy.
so i hope anyone who is reading this thread..dont go insulting this guy.

You've been beating the crap out of me for being vocal about it

Aw c'mon, man. That's not fair. When I have ever given you a hard time?

:-/

I saw some stuff early with X2, but so far for me, everything is in good shape other than a few crashes due to Kontakt...which has always been a thorn in my side. (Kontakt, just so you know, I hate you! LOL)

What amazes me about the stuff I read on here is....either someone has a bunch of weird stuff happening, or they are perfect or near perfect. I can tell you this....and I mean it sincerely, I don't know how Cakewalk handles their beta testing, but in the testing I do for companies I test for....we beat the living heck out of the stuff and try to break it any way we can. We had a release of something that was pretty popular where we on the beta team for that product and cycle felt wonderful. We couldn't make the thing act up no matter what we tried.

Some really skilled people on that team too. We released it and the next day, there were like 25 things that were found to be wrong. We went from feeling like we were awesome to feeling like we failed. Case in point....software is always going to behave differently for people depending on how it gets used. Even if you have 100 beta testers that know what they are doing....there will be 200 users that will use the product differently.

I'm not sticking up for Cake, or any of the companies that I test for...there are obviously problems or people wouldn't be complaining. The first step in fixing these problems is recognizing that they exist. The next thing...which is a nightmare....is finding the recipe to reproduce them so they can be recognized as legit bugs. Anyone that's ever been on a beta team can relate to that. It's not only frustrating, but can do your head in and make you think you're crazy. You see something happening to you as a blatantly obvious thing that happens to you religiously. Several others try to repro the problem and it doesn't happen. What do you do? Whay can THEY do if they don't see it? Trust me when I tell you, this part totally sucks!

For example, I like to always try to repro the stuff people complain about on these forums. If you ever see me post "yep, confirmed" it happens to me too of course. If I don't post anything, chances are I tried it and was unsuccessful....but I always try to reproduce just about every bug someone posts on here just because I'm curious and it usually only takes about 3-5 minutes to try.

If I were to take a guess at the problems people are reporting in Sonar, I would say the DAW itself has become a bit too sophisticated and in a sense, has lost its way. Sometimes "ground-breaking and innovative" can make something that was once great, go a bit astray. Though I have not had any of the issues reported here on my end, (Thank God) there ARE things that happen to me in X2 that didn't happen in X1 or 8.5.

A few examples: Certain plugins crash X2 that do not crash X1 or 8.5, issues with the new plugin manager at times...a few strange out of memory messages causing crashes that I have never seen before due to Kontakt, weird slip editing of clips, main power button on a PC track being disabled when it was saved as "enabled", tracks losing focus and not hi-liting or scrolling properly without clicking on them, screen sets not maintaining what was last saved/used....little things like that. No show stoppers for me other than the out of memory thing.

That said, I'm STILL not using X2 for any serious projects other than one I did last week since the bundle was sent to me using X2. Another thing I have learned which may be something for people to keep in mind. It could just be me, but I sincerely feel we should do this if at all possible for a while just until we know for sure...

Any project done in X1 should remain in X1. I've had too many issues with old projects being brought into X2. Anything done in 8.5, should remain in 8.5. When you do a project in X2, start it in X2 and name it "name of file X2" so you always know where it was created. I've noticed that any project created in X2, works well in X2 without any weird things other than my Kontakt issue and an old version of ARC crashing X2. But try that....no more old projects in X2. I really believe there is some truth to this even if it may be just on my end.

At any rate, I hope the issues can be sorted out whether they be due to the software or some sort of hardware anomaly if one exists. Speaking of hardware....here's one...not a show stopper, but something that has always bothered me that can't seem to be remedied.

Any Echo card ever made that I have, (Lalya 24/96, Gina, Audiofire Pre 8 and 12) cannot do a punch out in ANY version of Sonar from Sonar 6 to present without leaving a gap while "Allow Arm Changes during playback" is enabled. A gap will appear unless you use inputs 1 or 2. All other inputs produce a gap in punch out with ANY Echo interface. Though not a horrible thing, it only happens in Sonar. If this sort of hardware issue can occur, others can be culprits and it very well could change how they react with different versions of Sonar....you just never know.

At the end of the day, we just have to keep on reporting this stuff. If you feel you haven't received the right answer or no answer at all, it's pretty obvious what must be done. I found out about my Echo issue because one of the Cake staff was kind enough to figure it out for me. Will it ever be remedied in a future version of Sonar? I don't know...but at least the problem was found out, they are aware of it and at least I know it's not me or any of the 4 cards I was running.

The thing that makes this difficult is....there are quite a few of us that have been here a really long time. It's a bit hard to swallow that there were good versions of Sonar that worked, you take the plunge to the latest and greatest, and have nothing but road-blocks. The frustration is understandable on all counts. However, speaking for myself, the Bakers have never turned me away when I had a problem and I'm no one special.

I reported my issues like we're supposed to do and was assigned someone to help me. In just about all of my situations, I was fixed up and taken care of. If anyone else hasn't had that experience, I'm really sorry...but it's always worked for me. If at some point it no longer does, there are enough options out there to where I honestly wouldn't spend any time on this forum downing Sonar.....I'd buy a DAW that worked for me and would resume my business...but that's just me. Again, my sincere apologies for anyone having problems. I sure don't think you're crazy and can definitely relate to your frustration having been there a few times myself in the past.

-Danny

Maybe I can add (or confuse) a few points here that could be useful in this discussion. 

Preface: I don't defend Cakewalk, either, because there's something pushing them a bit too hard (i.e. competition, Roland, customers, investors, you name it), and I don't like that one bit, as a customer.

1 - Anyone using X2a should update all drivers, BIOS, and ditch Windows 8 for now.
2 - Get the "SWA Complete Sonar X2" vids and go through them. Understand each feature/function fully because there are some tweaks each system can use that will help in most cases. Sonar isn't intelligent enough to auto-sense all your system settings.
3 - X2a does seem to produce some extra burden on the system or OS vs. X2 or even X1d.
4 - Cakewalk uses a LOT of C++ libraries developed by Microsoft, meaning, if the Microsoft libraries aren't up-to-date, or fouled up (happens more often than you might think) then Sonar will suffer. I don't like this poorly chosen dependency but it does lower Cakewalk's overhead, and subsequently, the price we pay. Yes, I would like to see Sonar developed without Microsoft's help, but those developers are way more expensive, and you'd be very limited in hardware choices.
5 - I prefer not to pressure Cakewalk to put out X2b yet. Ironically as this sounds, I'd rather they hold off releasing the next patch until they've at least evaluated each issue from this forum, and either fixed them, or simply says to us, we're full of (stuff), and our ideas don't meet their marketing strategies. If so, then be it.

If you take into consideration all of the features and functions Cakewalk DID pack into Sonar, it's impressive. I don't like editing (one of the most awkward and unpredictable editors I've ever used), but the appreciation is growing (albeit, slowly) on me.

@Danny - Since they have you as a Beta tester, how responsive is Cakewalk to the issues, bugs, and other anomalies you find and report? 

millzy


Yes I am seeing some real quirky things happen also in X2a, however I'm yet to seen the pro channel eq glitch.

I had a new one happen to me tonight - slip editing a clip while playing the project and all of a sudden there was no audio from any of the clips on the same track as the one I edited! It was as if that track was magically muted after I edited one clip. The only cure was to re-open the project.

I dont know what kind of stuff your PC´s smoke ! The only Issue I had with X2 ; is it crashes suddenly sometimes ,while for example saving tracktemplates ....its strange ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,just the crashes ...but the bugs you are writing about ; they seem like an INVENTION of steinberg or either avid ^^
I think slowly ,some PAYD protools people or steiberg people ,write such BUG posts unpurpouse ? ....are these called trolls ?
They accused me big time of beeing one ,because I was so new to sonar ...NOW you all hang out with trolls ß --you must be banjo players ! ; P