There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar

Hi Silktone,
 
I'll check this out later, but suggest you double-check that what is shown in the Input field is the only thing checked in the pick list. I encountered a situation recently where more than one input port was checked when I opened the Input drop-down. I was not able to repro how the track got into that state, but as soon as I re-selected only the input I wanted, the problem was resolved and stayed that way.

I have noticed recently that my BFD tracks will trigger my other VSTs if I don't go to the other MIDI tracks and specifically select the MIDI input corresponding to my MIDI keyboard.
 
I suppose it's cleaner to actually set the MIDI input like this, but I never had to do it before.

slartabartfast
Why are you calling this crosstalk? If MIDI messages are being sent to Sonar by any means I would expect them to be captured by any track recording input MIDI omni=all channels. Why not just set your keyboard to broadcast on a single channel, set your recording track to that channel, and make sure other MIDI message sources are either disabled or broadcasting on another channel? I have no idea how you can set a track to just receive messages from a single controller vs a specific channel. If the controller is set as a MIDI input to Sonar (the program as a whole), does it not tell Sonar to accept messages to Sonar for any enabled track on the sending channel?

That is not how it is supposed to work. What you suggest is a workaround for a bug. And the input wasn't selected as OMNI, it was selected as [My external keyboard]->OMNI.
 
It is perfectly valid for a keyboard to have a split and send on multiple MIDI channels based on key zone. If that is what I want to record into one track then Sonar cannot do that. That is a pretty basic shortcoming for a DAW in 1995, let alone 2016.
 
BTW I'm not sure why that comment was marked as helpful seeing as it is completely wrong.

sharke
A little OT but I still don't understand why "none" doesn't just mean "none." 
 
Sometimes you don't want ANY MIDI reaching a track and it's ridiculous that you should have to be selecting anything but "none" to do this. 
 
Every time I insert Jamstix into a project and use its MIDI-out I encounter the familiar annoyance of having Jamstix playing a freaking crazy-ass bass line on another track until I set that track's MIDI input to my keyboard. Sort this out Cakewalk!

Good question. My impression of Sonar is that the whole concept of VSTis sending MIDI out was never tested and never considered in the overall design.
 
For instance, the default input for a MIDI track is "None", which is synonymous for "Global OMNI" (why?). That kinda works where you have a MIDI keyboard connected and you want the selected track to automatically receive input from the MIDI keyboard. Very convenient.
 
However CW seems to have forgotten that there are also VSTis that can send MIDI out as well, so now the default is for a selected track to receive MIDI from the external keyboard as well as any and all VSTi that happen to send MIDI out. In most cases I would guess that the MIDI out from a particular VSTi has already been purposefully routed into another track. So why on earth would anyone want every single MIDI event to now suddenly appear on the selected, yet unrelated track?
 
Well, fortunately one can specifically change the input of a MIDI track to a specific port. This way, the MIDI events of other VSTis should be ignored, even if OMNI was selected for that specific port (the output of a VSTi is a completely different port). However it still doesn't work in Sonar, and every single MIDI event floating around in Sonar that was sent out by a VSTi will also be recorded onto a track that has been routed to a port that has nothing to do with any of those VSTis.
 
This is MIDI 101. I still don't understand why this is so hard for CW to get right.

SilkTone
It is perfectly valid for a keyboard to have a split and send on multiple MIDI channels based on key zone. If that is what I want to record into one track then Sonar cannot do that. That is a pretty basic shortcoming for a DAW in 1995, let alone 2016.

 
If this comment is independent of the issue involving VSTi devices that generate MIDI out, I must not be understanding your problem. If I set up splits on a keyboard like the Korg M3 where the splits send data on multiple MIDI channels, I can record all of that into a single MIDI track in SONAR.

SilkTone

brundlefly
I'm not seeing a problem. I set up:

This issue is very specific to VSTis generating MIDI events internally as opposed to playing back prerecorded MIDI clips. For instance Catanya and JamStix will reproduce this.

Yes, I know, that's why I used Blue Arp; it's generating new MIDI output from the MIDI input. I only added LoopBe to make more ways for things to go wrong. If you want me to take out everything but the keyboard and Arp as MIDI sources. I can do that.

Which VSTis do you have that generate MIDI events? Maybe we can try to set it up in the exact same way if you want to reproduce it.
 
If you have JamStix that would be great because I never re-installed Catanya on my new system, so JamStix might be all I have right now.
 
Basically, the brief steps are like this:
 

1. In a new project, add JamStix and make sure to enable it's MIDI out in both Sonar and in JamStix itself.
2. Add another drum VSTi that you want to drive with JamStix's MIDI output.
3. Set the input of the other drum VSTi to JamStix's output.
4. Insert another VSTi instrument (say a string synth or whatever). Set it's MIDI input to [your external keyboard] -> OMNI.
5. Start recording MIDI on the synth in step 4 from your external MIDI keyboard.

 
If JamStix is sending MIDI events out, then those events will also be recorded on the MIDI track of the synth in step 5. It's input is clearly set to the external MIDI keyboard, and so it should only record MIDI events from the external keyboard.

By the way, I can completely confirm this "feature", when I use Maschine to record into Sonar via its midi out function it also plays every other midi/VSTi track I previously created unless I select an unused port AND channel. If I set the unrelated track to listen to my soundcard midi port OMNI, it still catches Maschine and if I set it to "none" it also does. I really have to select a specific channel I'm not using. Input echo seems unrelated by the way, it does it on any track. 

I don't have Catanya or Jamstix so I just re-tested with your old 'MIDIBugs' DLL. I still didn't see a problem with what got recorded on each track, though SONAR still shows the false 'confidence recording' indication of the live input on the track that's recording the VST MIDI Out.

This topic has been raised before. Enabling MIDI out/through on a VSTi can create mayhem in short order since there is no means to isolate the source, or track "loose MIDI" internal to SONAR. Very complex routings would be achievable if such existed, but getting too deep down that path has always ended in dismay so far for me. AFAICT, SONAR sees "16 channels."

Sanderxpander
By the way, I'm not sure if you're also noticing this in your situations, but strangely the midi generated by VSTis doesn't even move the meters! It took me a while to figure this out while use Maschine - I'd play the pads and have Maschine set to forward that into Sonar, but the meter doesn't move. Maybe this is different for patterns actually generated during playback by a plug like Jamstix?

That is strange, because for me the meters are showing activity for the MIDI coming from VSTis.
 

Paul P
 
I just created a new project with three 'instruments', each with their own (virtual) keyboards :

Paul, where are you recording MIDI? It specifically happens when you record MIDI from an external MIDI controller while also having VSTis that send MIDI out back into Sonar. From your setup, it sounds like you just need to record one of those MIDI inputs.

SilkTone
It specifically happens when you record MIDI from an external MIDI controller while also having VSTis that send MIDI out back into Sonar.

And you've verified that the events are actually being recorded on the wrong track? It's not just that you're getting the false and misleading 'confidence recording' indication of a clip with events in it being displayed on all armed tracks in the clips pane while recording...?
 
 
 

brundlefly

SilkTone
It specifically happens when you record MIDI from an external MIDI controller while also having VSTis that send MIDI out back into Sonar.

And you've verified that the events are actually being recorded on the wrong track? It's not just that you're getting the false and misleading 'confidence recording' indication of a clip with events in it being displayed on all armed tracks in the clips pane while recording...?

Yes, I verified that the MIDI events are present in the MIDI clip after recording stops.

I'd be happy to test this but don't know if I have any plug-ins that generate MIDI out. Do any of SONAR's built-in plugs have it, or any common ones from NI, Arturia, etc.?