Helpful ReplyThere is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar

Page: < 123 > Showing page 2 of 3
Author
Post
Essentials Only Full Version
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 14250
  • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
  • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/16 15:24:59 (permalink)
I've used the demo of Catanya in the past. This time I used the freeware Blue ARP, but it needs MIDI input to generate output, which might invalidate the test conditions. And then there's SilkTone's own 32-bit 'MIDIBugs' plugin that he developed to demonstrate this and related MIDI buffering issues:
 
http://www.alienworks.com/cakewalk/sonarmidibug/sonarmidibug.htm
 
The above is definitely the easiest one to set up. Just drop the DLL in your x86 Vstplugins folder, insert it as a Simple Instrument (MIDI-generating plugins need to have an audio output track to work correctly in SONAR - even if it's not used), and turn on the 'Generate MIDI' option in GUI.
post edited by brundlefly - 2016/02/16 16:01:15

SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
#31
Sanderxpander
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3873
  • Joined: 2013/09/30 10:08:24
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/16 15:29:34 (permalink)
Anderton
I'd be happy to test this but don't know if I have any plug-ins that generate MIDI out. Do any of SONAR's built-in plugs have it, or any common ones from NI, Arturia, etc.?



NI Maschine, if you happen to have that. I'm sure some Reaktor ensembles do too but I don't use any that do. 
#32
SilkTone
Max Output Level: -59.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1566
  • Joined: 2003/11/10 17:41:28
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/16 15:52:22 (permalink)
Anderton
I'd be happy to test this but don't know if I have any plug-ins that generate MIDI out. Do any of SONAR's built-in plugs have it, or any common ones from NI, Arturia, etc.?



Craig, in the past I didn't have much luck finding a built in plugin that reproduces the issue.

Windows 10 Pro x64, SONAR Platinum 64-bit
Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 USB, ASRock Z97 Pro4, Haswell 4790k @ 4.4GHz
32GB DDR3/1600, 500GB SSD (OS) + 256 GB SSD + 3TB MD
NVIDIA GTX-1070, 40" 4K Monitor + 1 Monitor in ISO booth
#33
Paul P
Max Output Level: -48.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2685
  • Joined: 2012/12/08 17:15:47
  • Location: Montreal
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/16 16:10:24 (permalink)
SilkTone
Paul, where are you recording MIDI? It specifically happens when you record MIDI from an external MIDI controller while also having VSTis that send MIDI out back into Sonar. From your setup, it sounds like you just need to record one of those MIDI inputs.



You're right,  I wasn't recording.  But now I have and I still haven't encountered a problem.
 
[The following continues the experiment begun in post 23]
 
1. I enabled recording for (only) Rapture, SI EPiano and DimPro.  I started recording and played some notes into Kirnu 1 which got that going, then some notes into Kirnu 2 which were also repeated, then I played DimPro by hand on top of the other two.  Everything was recorded properly.  [During record, though, clips don't properly show what's being recorded.  Only the notes of one clip are repeated (visually) in other clips.  May not be a problem, but certainly not what I'd expect to see.  Once I stopped recording the clips were updated to reflect what was actually recorded in each clip.]
 
2.  I then added just a midi track (6) and set its input to Sonar's "Virtual Controller / MIDI Omni" which is also being read by Kirnu 1.  Armed that for record as well and repeated the above.  This midi track correctly recorded only what was played on Sonar's virtual controller.  And the other clips correctly recorded what was being fed to them.
 
3. I then armed everything for recording and repeated step 2.  Here's what was produced :
    (display just the image to see it a bit bigger)
 

 
"Track 6" is the midi track recording Cakewalk's "Virtual controller / MIDI Omni" (also playing Kirnu 1/Track 1). 
As you can see, Track 6 records only that device.
 
Just to make sure, since you'd mentioned devices 'external' to Sonar, I repeated one more time, but had Track 6 record one of the other keyboards coming through LoopBe30  "1.Internal MIDI / MIDI Omni".  The result was equally successful.
 
post edited by Paul P - 2016/02/16 16:48:39

Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
#34
SilkTone
Max Output Level: -59.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1566
  • Joined: 2003/11/10 17:41:28
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/16 16:45:39 (permalink)
Paul,
 
Your setup (routing etc) is different enough that it could be one of many reasons why it isn't reproducing for you. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of free time right now so can't experiment with something closer to your setup, but maybe later tonight I can do that and will give an update.
 
A few people have repro'd this so I don't think this is specific to my setup.

Windows 10 Pro x64, SONAR Platinum 64-bit
Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 USB, ASRock Z97 Pro4, Haswell 4790k @ 4.4GHz
32GB DDR3/1600, 500GB SSD (OS) + 256 GB SSD + 3TB MD
NVIDIA GTX-1070, 40" 4K Monitor + 1 Monitor in ISO booth
#35
Sanderxpander
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3873
  • Joined: 2013/09/30 10:08:24
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/16 16:50:32 (permalink)
I even get crosstalk from Maschine if it's not actively generating midi but just said to "thru" mode and playing the Sonar midi clip. Meaning that it then also plays any other tracks that are not specifically set to a physical input and channel.
#36
tlw
Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2567
  • Joined: 2008/10/11 22:06:32
  • Location: West Midlands, UK
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/16 17:04:40 (permalink)
Sonar's internal handling of MIDI from VSTis has always been buggy, for several versions the tick-box in the synth loading dialogue etc. to allow a VSTi to send MIDI existed but didn't actually do anything. I think it was X1 where the function first worked at all.

I acknowledge that a work-around shouldn't be necessary, but needs must, as they say.

Might using the virtual MIDI ports of LoopBe be a work-around?

Use LoopBe to set up some extra MIDI in and out ports in Windows that Sonar then just treats as another external MIDI device. Then use the LoopBe ports as a virtual MIDI cable by pointing the VST MIDI output at a LoopBe MIDI in and setting the input whichever track or VST you want to use that MIDI to the relevant LoopBe out.
http://nerds.de/en/loopbe1.html

Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board,
ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre.
Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
#37
auto_da_fe
Max Output Level: -56.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1866
  • Joined: 2004/08/04 21:32:18
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/16 20:57:36 (permalink)
I was on the original Xtalk bug report.  So I know a lot about this issue.
 
Overall things are better, but it still does weird stuff when you enable midi out.  Fortunately I usually only ever use 1 midi channel so do not see a lot of these issues.
 
I too have discovered that "none" does not mean none, however assigning an unused midi port from my octa-capture provides a suitable work around.  

HP DV6T - 2670QM, 8 GB RAM,
Sonar Platypus,  Octa Capture, BFD2 & Jamstix3, Komplete 10 and Komplete Kontrol
Win 10 64 
SLS PS8R Monitors and KRK Ergo
https://soundcloud.com/airportface
#38
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 14250
  • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
  • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/16 22:46:34 (permalink)
auto_da_fe
I was on the original Xtalk bug report.  So I know a lot about this issue.
 

 
Good, then maybe you can clarify how to reproduce it...? 
 

I too have discovered that "none" does not mean none, however assigning an unused midi port from my octa-capture provides a suitable work around.

 
None means none; you just can't record it or echo it.





SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
#39
SilkTone
Max Output Level: -59.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1566
  • Joined: 2003/11/10 17:41:28
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/16 23:21:06 (permalink)
OK, here are some simple steps to repro. The only extra thing you need is an external MIDI keyboard. I don't know if LoopBe would work since I have not tried it.
 
  1. Start with an empty project
  2. Insert a single MIDI track
  3. For the MIDI track in step 2's input, select [Virtual Controller]->MIDI Ch. 1
  4. Insert a VST2 synth, say SI-String Section, into its own new MIDI and synth track
  5. For the synth's MIDI track in step 4's input, select [Your External MIDI Controller]->OMNI
  6. Select the MIDI track of the synth in step 4, and arm it for record.
  7. Open the Virtual Controller (Alt+Shift+0)
  8. Start recording
  9. Click on notes in the Virtual Controller
 
Actual Results:
MIDI events from the Virtual Controller in step 3 are recorded onto the MIDI track of the synth in step 4.
 
Expected Results:
Since the input of the synth in step 5 is selected to be [Your External MIDI Controller]->OMNI, it should only record MIDI events coming in from the external MIDI controller that is selected as its input.
 
Important:
If you flubbed any of the steps, say accidentally select the wrong input in step 5, then changed that to the correct input, the problem will not reproduce. This is actually the workaround as well... Select an unrelated input, then back again to [Your External MIDI Controller]->OMNI.
 
Clearly this is not how it is supposed to work. Especially if you consider that temporarily changing to a different input, then back again, changes the behavior.
 
Over the years this bug has become less and less severe. Initially Sonar would crash if more than 1 VSTi sent MIDI data out at the same time (no workaround), and MIDI events sent from VSTis would bleed into any other track that is being recorded (no workaround). At least now there are workarounds. Still, after all these years one would think CW can get the routing right. It is such basic DAW functionality.
post edited by SilkTone - 2016/02/16 23:40:42

Windows 10 Pro x64, SONAR Platinum 64-bit
Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 USB, ASRock Z97 Pro4, Haswell 4790k @ 4.4GHz
32GB DDR3/1600, 500GB SSD (OS) + 256 GB SSD + 3TB MD
NVIDIA GTX-1070, 40" 4K Monitor + 1 Monitor in ISO booth
#40
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 14250
  • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
  • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/17 02:05:25 (permalink)
SilkTone
Important:
If you flubbed any of the steps, say accidentally select the wrong input in step 5, then changed that to the correct input, the problem will not reproduce. This is actually the workaround as well... Select an unrelated input, then back again to [Your External MIDI Controller]->OMNI.



I'll have to go hunt up the earlier thread on this where toggling the input assignment would fix the problem. As I recall, I was only able to repro the issue if I had Always Echo enabled in preferences, so that upon inserting tracks they would automatically default to 'Omni' which is actually All Inputs - Omni, but shows as 'None' in the dropdown.
 
But now, I'm unable to reproduce it with those exact steps no matter the state of 'Always Echo'.
 
EDIT: There have been so many of these threads over time with all sorts of side issues and confusion going on in them that I can't immediately find the particular one was thinking of. I did find one in which I mentioned being able to reproduce this in Platinum, but that was probably before Kingston which supposedly fixed this 'once and for all'. All I know is that I cannot currently reproduce any crosstalk issues in Manchester other than false 'confidence recording' indication on the armed track.
 
 
post edited by brundlefly - 2016/02/17 02:33:19

SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
#41
SquireBum
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 347
  • Joined: 2013/06/26 13:23:55
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/17 11:05:43 (permalink)
brundlefly
 
I'll have to go hunt up the earlier thread on this where toggling the input assignment would fix the problem. As I recall, I was only able to repro the issue if I had Always Echo enabled in preferences, so that upon inserting tracks they would automatically default to 'Omni' which is actually All Inputs - Omni, but shows as 'None' in the dropdown.
 
But now, I'm unable to reproduce it with those exact steps no matter the state of 'Always Echo'.
 
EDIT: There have been so many of these threads over time with all sorts of side issues and confusion going on in them that I can't immediately find the particular one was thinking of. I did find one in which I mentioned being able to reproduce this in Platinum, but that was probably before Kingston which supposedly fixed this 'once and for all'. All I know is that I cannot currently reproduce any crosstalk issues in Manchester other than false 'confidence recording' indication on the armed track.
 



I submitted a problem report [CWBRN-33360] for the MIDI crosstalk issue in Platinum back in June of 2015 and created forum thread: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3231310.  My thread referenced an earlier thread created by @SilkTone from December of 2013 that discussed the Sonar X3 workaround: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2954622.
 
Z3TA+ 2 that was used in my problem report no longer transmits MIDI in Platinum "Manchester".  The Synth Rack displays "Enable MIDI Out" as "greyed out" for Z3ta+ 2, so it is no longer possible to use my original Steps to Reproduce.
 
I tested using the free Kirnu arpeggiator and the original Z3ta+.  In both cases I also can no longer reproduce the problem in Platinum "Manchester" when setting the input for the recorded track to my external MIDI port (Gina 3G MIDI Omni).   The only way I can reproduce is to set the input to "All Inputs MIDI Omni" for the recorded MIDI track and this would be expected behavior.
 
Re: Cakewalk plugin that transmits MIDI Data
The older Z3ta+ will transmit MIDI when clicking on the gray bar at the bottom of the Z3ta+ GUI.
 
 
 
-- Ron
post edited by SquireBum - 2016/02/17 11:20:05

Cakewalk by Bandlab, Sonar Platinum x64 2017.10, X3E, X2a, X1d, 8.5
Windows 10 x64
AMD Phenom II X4 955 3.20 GHz
8 GB Ram
Nvidia GeForce 9500 GT
Echo Gina 3G
#42
SilkTone
Max Output Level: -59.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1566
  • Joined: 2003/11/10 17:41:28
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/17 12:03:32 (permalink)
Thanks to everyone looking into this. It looks like there were some more fixes made in this area since fewer people can now repro it. I can definitely still repro it 100% of the time following the steps from my previous post.
 
It might be that CW thought the last remaining bugs in this area were fixed because they could no longer repro it, but maybe based on your setup, it could still repro in some cases.
 
It is interesting to me that in my steps above, there is no VSTi sending MIDI out. Only Virtual Controller is sending MIDI out, so I'm guessing maybe it is using some of the same code paths that a VSTi would use when it sends MIDI out. Of course I don't know for sure but in that regard the bug is exactly the same for me whether it is a VSTi or the virtual keyboard.
 
Ron, I know that in the past if I had multiple MIDI drivers enabled in Sonar, the problem would not reproduce. If you go to Preferences->MIDI->Devices, how many MIDI inputs do you have selected?
 
I also checked out Z3Ta+, and it does play back when clicking on the bottom gray bar. But as you said, it doesn't send MIDI notes out, only audio. I did verify that it's Enable MIDI Output is checked, and even though I can select it as an input to another MIDI track, it never seems to actually send any MIDI events.
 
So far the easiest way to repro it for me using only CW supplied software is to use Virtual Controller, even though strictly speaking it isn't a VSTi. But for me at least it seems to hit the same bug. Maybe the bug is in the input of a MIDI track as it deals with MIDI coming from somewhere inside Sonar as opposed to being in the output of a VSTi.
post edited by SilkTone - 2016/02/17 12:17:54

Windows 10 Pro x64, SONAR Platinum 64-bit
Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 USB, ASRock Z97 Pro4, Haswell 4790k @ 4.4GHz
32GB DDR3/1600, 500GB SSD (OS) + 256 GB SSD + 3TB MD
NVIDIA GTX-1070, 40" 4K Monitor + 1 Monitor in ISO booth
#43
2:43AM
Max Output Level: -68 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1147
  • Joined: 2013/06/24 07:59:49
  • Location: PHX
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/17 13:03:20 (permalink)
sharke
A little OT but I still don't understand why "none" doesn't just mean "none."



Exactly.  A major gripe of mine.  Does this honestly need to be put into a Feature Request to resolve this once and for all?
 
EDIT: Per Brundlefly's comment, I've always had difficulty with the "None" issue.  Perhaps I am doing it wrong, but it never seems to stick (i.e. remain on "none") and/or refrain from receiving MIDI and thereby triggering whatever the track's output is.
post edited by 2:43AM - 2016/02/17 13:19:49

Music: https://mothretra.bandcamp.com/
#44
bvideo
Max Output Level: -58 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1707
  • Joined: 2006/09/02 22:20:02
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/17 13:06:38 (permalink)
When I followed silktone's steps of post #40, I got a very bizarre result that doesn't quite fit into any of the descriptions so far. I inadvertently did things a little differently: I had a timeline loop enabled, and when I stopped recording, I did it by clicking the control bar's record button, not 'stop'. So Sonar kept playing around the loop.
 
  1. As I recorded, I saw a clip shadow being animated in the midi track of step 4, but no notes (this is the known "confidence recording" bug?). I heard no notes from anywhere.
  2. After I stopped recording by clicking the record button, Sonar continued to play, looping around. As it replayed the loop, the SI Strings synth of step 4 played the notes I had recorded. <-- This is weird
  3. The 'confidence recording' shading was still there with no notes.
  4. When I finally clicked 'stop' the confidence recording shading disappeared.
  5. Clicking play again played no notes.
  6. The transport controls were not working the same any more. Hitting 'play' forced the NOW time back to measure one. 'Stop' restored the NOW time to wherever it was when I hit 'play'. This condition is persistent.
Item 2 is the really weird one, and acts just like midi crosstalk, but it goes away after 'stop'. Item 6 is weird, and not part of the discussion at hand, but seems to coincide with finishing (my version of) silktone's steps.
 
Are there some preference settings that differ among the people trying these steps that could explain the variety of results?

W10 pro, Sonar Platinum, Alesis Multimix 16 FW, MOTU Express 128, Gigabyte Z370 HD3P, i7 8700K, 16 Gigs, ssd + 2 X 2T disks, D50-MEX, JV80, A90EX, M1REX
#45
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 14250
  • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
  • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/17 13:38:36 (permalink)
bvideo
After I stopped recording by clicking the record button, Sonar continued to play, looping around. As it replayed the loop, the SI Strings synth of step 4 played the notes I had recorded. <-- This is weird



I reported this against X3, and I believe it was explicitly reported fixed in Kingston. If it's back, it has to do with focus being on the track that should not be recording (or echoing) that input. And, as you observed, it only happens when loop recording.
 
EDIT: My original report was that it happened on a track that was not even armed to record in addition to having an input assigned that did not match the port on which MIDI events were arriving. That issue remains fixed. BUT, if the track is armed, it still happens.
post edited by brundlefly - 2016/02/17 14:03:24

SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
#46
Paul P
Max Output Level: -48.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2685
  • Joined: 2012/12/08 17:15:47
  • Location: Montreal
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/17 16:04:47 (permalink)
SquireBum
Z3TA+ 2 that was used in my problem report no longer transmits MIDI in Platinum "Manchester".  The Synth Rack displays "Enable MIDI Out" as "greyed out" for Z3ta+ 2, so it is no longer possible to use my original Steps to Reproduce.

 
I don't why our systems differ, but the "Enable MIDI Out" box is not grayed out on my z3ta+2 (v2.2.2) properties page.  I didn't know that z3ta+2 ever transmitted midi data.
 

Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
#47
SquireBum
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 347
  • Joined: 2013/06/26 13:23:55
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/17 18:22:09 (permalink)
SilkTone
Ron, I know that in the past if I had multiple MIDI drivers enabled in Sonar, the problem would not reproduce. If you go to Preferences->MIDI->Devices, how many MIDI inputs do you have selected?

 
Steven,
  I had 2 MIDI input devices currently enabled when I tested:
    Gina3G MIDI
    LoopBe Internal MIDI
 
Tried the following:
1.  Disabled LoopBe Internal MIDI leaving only Gina3G MIDI.
2.  Inserted Simple Instrument Track (Track #1) with the free Kirnu arpeggiator, checked "MIDI Output enabled", input set to None.
3.  Added a MIDI clip with 3 measures of chords to Track #1
3.  Inserted Simple Instrument Track (Track #2) with Dimension Pro, input set to Kirnu 1 MIDI Omni.
4.  Inserted Simple Instrument Track (Track #3) with Z3TA+2, input set to Gina3G MIDI Omni.
5.  Input monitoring disabled on all tracks.
6.  Enabled record on Track #3 only.
7.  Clicked Record and stopped after 4 bars.
 
Result:  Track #3 contains MIDI data corresponding to the MIDI output of the Kirnu arpeggiator from Track #1.
 
This confirms your conclusions about the multiple input devices.
 
If I toggle the Track #3 track input to "None" and back to "Gina3G MIDI Omni" and hit Record again, arpeggiator data is NOT recorded.  This is the Sonar X3 workaround that was previously described.
 
-- Ron
 
 
post edited by SquireBum - 2016/02/17 18:38:17

Cakewalk by Bandlab, Sonar Platinum x64 2017.10, X3E, X2a, X1d, 8.5
Windows 10 x64
AMD Phenom II X4 955 3.20 GHz
8 GB Ram
Nvidia GeForce 9500 GT
Echo Gina 3G
#48
SquireBum
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 347
  • Joined: 2013/06/26 13:23:55
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/17 18:31:05 (permalink)
Paul P
SquireBum
Z3TA+ 2 that was used in my problem report no longer transmits MIDI in Platinum "Manchester".  The Synth Rack displays "Enable MIDI Out" as "greyed out" for Z3ta+ 2, so it is no longer possible to use my original Steps to Reproduce.

 
I don't why our systems differ, but the "Enable MIDI Out" box is not grayed out on my z3ta+2 (v2.2.2) properties page.  I didn't know that z3ta+2 ever transmitted midi data.
 




Paul,
  The "Enable MIDI Out" checkbox is not greyed out on the properties page.   The Enable MIDI Out option under Synth Connected  is greyed out in the Synth Rack drop down menu for Z3TA+2 (v2.2.2) on my system.
 
-- Ron

Cakewalk by Bandlab, Sonar Platinum x64 2017.10, X3E, X2a, X1d, 8.5
Windows 10 x64
AMD Phenom II X4 955 3.20 GHz
8 GB Ram
Nvidia GeForce 9500 GT
Echo Gina 3G
#49
Paul P
Max Output Level: -48.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2685
  • Joined: 2012/12/08 17:15:47
  • Location: Montreal
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/17 20:44:39 (permalink)
SquireBum
I had 2 MIDI input devices currently enabled when I tested:
    Gina3G MIDI
    LoopBe Internal MIDI

 
I just repeated Ron's setup except I started with a single device : LoopBe30 for which I enabled only Port 1.
 
Data was indeed erroneously recorded in track 3.
 
Now, instead of toggling track 3's input I (only) enabled LoopBe30 Port 2 in Preferences.
 
This also fixed the problem, no data is recorded in track 3.
 
Next, I (only) disabled LoopBe Port 2 in Preferences.
 
Data is again erroneously recorded in track 3.
 
 
[Ron, I see what you mean wrt Enable MIDI Out.  Thanks.]
 
post edited by Paul P - 2016/02/17 21:02:21

Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
#50
robert_e_bone
Moderator
  • Total Posts : 8968
  • Joined: 2007/12/26 22:09:28
  • Location: Palatine, IL
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/17 22:07:30 (permalink)
So new midi data is appearing in a midi track that does not have Record armed?  Am I understanding this to be what is being reported?
 
I get phantom midi data transmitted by one of my midi controllers, but that seems to be due to an internal hardware issue related to crappy pots and such.  I have never seen midi data recorded on a track that was not armed for record.
 
Bob Bone
 

Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
 
Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
#51
SquireBum
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 347
  • Joined: 2013/06/26 13:23:55
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/17 23:26:41 (permalink)
robert_e_bone
So new midi data is appearing in a midi track that does not have Record armed?  Am I understanding this to be what is being reported?
 

Bob,
  No, the MIDI data is appearing on a Record armed track.  The issue is that the MIDI data is being received from another track that is not routed to it in addition to any data that is received through the Record armed track's input port.
 
-- Ron
post edited by SquireBum - 2016/02/17 23:41:43

Cakewalk by Bandlab, Sonar Platinum x64 2017.10, X3E, X2a, X1d, 8.5
Windows 10 x64
AMD Phenom II X4 955 3.20 GHz
8 GB Ram
Nvidia GeForce 9500 GT
Echo Gina 3G
#52
SilkTone
Max Output Level: -59.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1566
  • Joined: 2003/11/10 17:41:28
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/18 01:50:23 (permalink)
Thanks to everyone that confirmed the bug (and those that tried to repro it).
 
So maybe CW doesn't know about this because their test machines would usually have more than 1 MIDI input device (speculating). We have a few confirmations now that it only reproduces when there is just 1 MIDI input device.
 
The behavior that Bill mentions in post #45 is really weird. I have not seen that, but with Sonar getting its wires crossed I can't say it surprises me too much.

Windows 10 Pro x64, SONAR Platinum 64-bit
Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 USB, ASRock Z97 Pro4, Haswell 4790k @ 4.4GHz
32GB DDR3/1600, 500GB SSD (OS) + 256 GB SSD + 3TB MD
NVIDIA GTX-1070, 40" 4K Monitor + 1 Monitor in ISO booth
#53
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 14250
  • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
  • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/18 02:13:52 (permalink)
I recall from previous discussions that having only one external MIDI input was part of the recipe. I can repro in that special case as well.

SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
#54
robert_e_bone
Moderator
  • Total Posts : 8968
  • Joined: 2007/12/26 22:09:28
  • Location: Palatine, IL
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/18 02:24:57 (permalink)
Thanks for explaining - I am a little slow towards the part of the day that my eyes are open. :)
 
So, what is the result if you alter the midi track that is armed for recording, so that it only accepts input from the desired input midi controller?  Wouldn't that take care of whatever is happening?
 
Is it due to the enable midi out being checked?
 
Does this happen for regular midi tracks, or is it just occurring with simple instrument tracks?
 
Thanks - sorry I am being so dense thus far.
 
Bob Bone

Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
 
Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
#55
SilkTone
Max Output Level: -59.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1566
  • Joined: 2003/11/10 17:41:28
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2016/02/18 03:18:10 (permalink)
 
robert_e_bone
Thanks for explaining - I am a little slow towards the part of the day that my eyes are open. :)
 
So, what is the result if you alter the midi track that is armed for recording, so that it only accepts input from the desired input midi controller?  Wouldn't that take care of whatever is happening?

 
Well, if you selected:
 
[My external MIDI controller]->Ch. 1-16
This will work as expected, and would record only from your external MIDI controller on the selected channel.
 
[My external MIDI controller]->OMNI
Here you would be recording not just all 16 channels from your controller, but also MIDI from any VSTi that happens to send MIDI out. And also from the Virtual Controller if you happen to click on any of its notes.
 
So to answer your question... It depends on whether you select a specific channel, or OMNI. In this context OMNI is supposed to mean only the 16 channels from that selected controller, nothing else.
  
Is it due to the enable midi out being checked?

 
By checking enable MIDI out, you complete some imaginary signal path that somehow connects back into the input of tracks where it doesn't belong. So if no VSTi has enable MIDI out checked, and you don't have the Virtual Controller onscreen, then you cannot reproduce the bug since this imaginary signal path doesn't get completed.
 
Does this happen for regular midi tracks, or is it just occurring with simple instrument tracks?

 
I just tested with a simple instrument track and it also reproduces, so yes, it happens with both.
 
Thanks - sorry I am being so dense thus far.
 
Bob Bone

 
NP, it would probably be a good idea to make a video of it one day since it tends to be a little bit confusing.
 
...
 
brundlefly
I recall from previous discussions that having only one external MIDI input was part of the recipe. I can repro in that special case as well.

 
Yes I thought that rang a bell but it was some time ago. Kind of a strange requirement to have just one external MIDI input in order to repro a bug. I don't quite get the connection.
post edited by SilkTone - 2016/02/18 11:33:49

Windows 10 Pro x64, SONAR Platinum 64-bit
Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 USB, ASRock Z97 Pro4, Haswell 4790k @ 4.4GHz
32GB DDR3/1600, 500GB SSD (OS) + 256 GB SSD + 3TB MD
NVIDIA GTX-1070, 40" 4K Monitor + 1 Monitor in ISO booth
#56
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 13933
  • Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
  • Location: NYC
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2017/01/17 12:33:39 (permalink)
Sorry to bring up an old thread, but this whole crosstalk issue continues to plague me since I regularly use plugins that generate MIDI. Is anyone else still suffering from crosstalk blues? 

James
Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
#57
pwalpwal
Max Output Level: -43 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3249
  • Joined: 2015/01/17 03:52:50
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2017/01/17 12:40:14 (permalink)
recent midi threads that maybe related? good luck!
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Adding-Instrument-with-MIDI-output-m3546620.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Is-There-Anyway-To-Disable-Enable-MIDI-Out-When-Inserting-Softsynths-m3539913.aspx
 

just a sec

#58
abacab
Max Output Level: -30.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 4464
  • Joined: 2014/12/31 19:34:07
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2017/01/17 13:07:34 (permalink)
I think one answer was to avoid leaving any midi track inputs set to Omni, except those you want to listen.
 
Apparently NONE defaults to Omni, so set MIDI track inputs to Virtual Controller, or something, unless you are actually using them.

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
#59
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 13933
  • Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
  • Location: NYC
  • Status: offline
Re: There is STILL MIDI crosstalk in Sonar 2017/01/17 14:38:38 (permalink)
pwalpwal
recent midi threads that maybe related? good luck!
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Adding-Instrument-with-MIDI-output-m3546620.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Is-There-Anyway-To-Disable-Enable-MIDI-Out-When-Inserting-Softsynths-m3539913.aspx
 




They are related, although not directly. There are some other issue associated with the problem I'm having which are outlined in those threads, like the whole MIDI omni frustration and the fact that MIDI out is enabled by default on plugins which offer it. 
 

James
Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
#60
Page: < 123 > Showing page 2 of 3
Jump to:
© 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1